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How do you find the M2 in beta19?

Started by infected247, December 28, 2020, 10:59:33 AM

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infected247

Hi, all. I wanted to know what you think of the M2 in beta19? I loved that bike since the very first lap (in beta18) because of the very realistic engine sound, its responsiveness and it's character... I mean you had to respect it at all cost, 'cause it wouldn't forgive.
 
However I installed the new beta yesterday and the bike suddenly seems to take all the brake you can throw at it, to the point of disrespect! The grip and braking ability even at the highest lean angles is phenomenal, and it doesn't seem to vary with tyre selection that much. The game even started making screeching noises while cornering at extreme angles, as if it registers contact of some part of the bike with the tarmac. (this happens in Victoria, I haven't played Assen that much, and the other tracks are still downloading.)

I'm not quite sure yet if it's the bike, or some tyre physics update, but when I tried to join a server yesterday I got a data mismatch with the M2, so there must be some changes.

Anyway, I'm sure everyone has noticed this right away, has it affected other bikes too? Do you like it better? And how do you find the changes with respect to the overall realism of the simulation?

VSMaster

M2 has still some problems. The engine brake seems to be a little too high, but much better than before, much controllable. I still think the grip is too high and the front shakes badly at full lean angle. It changed a bit from previous beta, but yet it's not what it should to be. I like it, it's fun to ride, but it needs more tuning of course.
Always on the edge

lluisete

December 28, 2020, 12:54:49 PM #2 Last Edit: December 28, 2020, 04:08:49 PM by lluisete
I feel it very enjoyable, it's a very good base to work for modders.

For me decreashing a bit the engine brake (like 15%) and make a tyre that allow to have less angle lean will be good changues for the M2. The front brakes and rest feeling good for me, maybe suspensions should be a bit more rigid/consistent but its not bad.

TIP: In the CLUTH Settings put Pressure plating to 0,4 from 1 helps a lot to control the engine braking.
Champion of Summer Cup 2012 and SRC125cc.<br />Subchampion of SRC500cc.<br />Admin of @gpbikes_fans<br />Personal instagram @lluiscabedo

Myst1cPrun3

The M2, is more ridable now in terms of the OP engine braking, but its still far from realistic.

As was said in discord, Honda Moto2 bikes did slide on entry, but its not simply because the rear tyre locks immediately. There have been several rider interviews describing different methods of downshifts and weight transfers to achieve this.

It is, (or should be) a stock CBR600rr motor, so there is a realistic engine to replicate there, around 125bhp at 16k RPM. (Pibosos M2 has 138bhp, so the fact its no faster in a straight line also highlights other issues. But the power Pibosos has is roughly the same as the current 765 Triumph engines, NOT the Honda's, but you can assume the power of the engines was increased slightly. That being said, fully tuned Honda SSP engines only get around 135bhp, so its still too powerful there, especially as they were famous for being slower/less powerful than SSP bikes in a straight line).
The real Honda Moto2 bikes were always at the top RPM's, as on a CBR that's where the power is, its almost 2 stroke in its powerband, this was also shown when braking, always on the limiter/slipper clutch. Below 11k there is nothing. Try doing that on this bike and it'll kill you.

It, for me, (while it may be 'fun') is NOT realistic, and is not a simulation. It is also Extremely frustrating to ride, and is a Huge turn off for new riders/potential Customers trying GPB Demo.

On top of that the suspension is very bouncy, the damping seems to be almost non existent for me, with extremely smooth inputs required, which again, (from rider interviews and data/onboards etc) is just not how the bikes were ridden.

Its like the Moto2 Races were watched, the bikes were seen to do something, and implemented in the game to do that thing, without actual understanding of HOW that behaviour occurred.

Overall, its a big fat FAIL for me. Frustrating, and not a simulation of the real thing

I have tried to make a V2 Mod of the M2, which used much more realistic values on both suspension and engine. The tyres were never finished, but it felt much more satisfying to use than the stock one. And still does for me, but your mileage may vary

Docfumi

The front folds a lot at low speeds turns, I slow down and try to roll through a corner and the wheel just turns and I fall. And that's your whole world right there. It's like the rider just lets go of the handlebars or something. I remember this happening with older BETAS and by now I was hoping PiBoSo had it sorted but it seems like that dog won't hunt and PiBs will have to do some digging to get it right. I've tried different setups and so on but the folding front is a no-go for me. I love the bike  ;D and it's fun to ride when you can ride it but as I've tried it on many different tracks with the same result I just gave up on it.  :(
I didn't lose the race, I ran out of laps.

lluisete

December 28, 2020, 04:14:20 PM #5 Last Edit: December 28, 2020, 04:15:55 PM by lluisete
If PiBoSo plans are to realease the game on Steam we need a more neutral bike like a Moto3 to make the begginers feel better on the first hours of the purchase. With bikes like this M2 a lot of new people will play the game just a few hours. I remember the 125cc was so easy to ride so it makes you play a lot of hours and get some skill while you enjoy at the beggining.

This M2 is a hard bike, but with the pressure plating set to 0,4 to feel better with the engine braking i am enjoying it. It's like ride my R6 but in "hardcore difficult".

Champion of Summer Cup 2012 and SRC125cc.<br />Subchampion of SRC500cc.<br />Admin of @gpbikes_fans<br />Personal instagram @lluiscabedo

Myst1cPrun3

Its just unrealistic. That's the bottom of it really, as when the bike is made with realistic tyre values and power,  the actual handling is fine. It becomes very neutral, and a nice bike to ride, and becomes that 'good middle bike'.

Its a hard bike, but its hard for all the wrong reasons.

Vini

December 28, 2020, 05:41:05 PM #7 Last Edit: December 28, 2020, 05:50:24 PM by Vini
In general I really like the bike. Turns brilliantly and requires very smooth (=realistic) inputs, especially the brake to throttle transition. You even have to be smooth when manually hanging the ridder off into the corner.
The defualt damper value is too low, though which leads to tankslappers and random low speed folds.
Also, there are some overheating issues with the front tyre after crashes but this seems to a common occurrence on other bikes as well.

Myst1cPrun3

Tbh, its not Far wrong. If the engine was sorted to a more realistic CBR engine (like the 2018 M2 bikes had), the front tyre and damper were slightly changed, it would be a very good introduction bike to ride. Its just all those issues combined make it a b***h in some areas.

As for tyre temps yeah that's been a thing for as long as I can remember. Just much too sensitive temp wise, so if the tyre skids it just spirals too hot too quick.

infected247

December 29, 2020, 07:08:42 PM #9 Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 12:55:20 AM by infected247
Thank you all for taking the time to reply. To be honest, I hadn't realized that it was supposed to be former moto2 specs, (now the "M2 2018" makes sense ;D ) so my comment about realism/simulation was mainly with respect to the grip and how you can slam the brakes and keep it upright that easily. I think the change in beta19 is huge. However I must say that I haven't done many laps yet, either with other bikes or in other tracks, (and most importantly I haven't fiddled with the suspension settings yet) so my point of reference may not be solid.

I agree that it's not a smooth bike, the engine braking is indeed intense and requires quite gentle inputs. I've been using this for bike games quite a long time now, and it's still very challenging to brake properly. I honestly don't understand how people use typical thumbsticks and play that good (as I see in youtube videos)

Quote from: lluisete on December 28, 2020, 12:54:49 PMTIP: In the CLUTH Settings put Pressure plating to 0,4 from 1 helps a lot to control the engine braking.
Hi, is that setting in the garage menu? or is it hardcoded in the bike's files? I don't think I've seen it somewhere.
OK, got it

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on December 28, 2020, 03:39:13 PMIt, for me, (while it may be 'fun') is NOT realistic, and is not a simulation. It is also Extremely frustrating to ride, and is a Huge turn off for new riders/potential Customers trying GPB Demo.
I can only imagine how difficult it is to try and replicate the exact behaviour of a specific bike. There's so many things apart from the typical power/torque curves and dimensions, like all sorts of friction and aerodynamics coefficients, inertia matrices... I cannot imagine how one would end up in the ballpark without access to original data directly from racing teams. Is it pure guesswork? I understand that you've released some mod of the M2, is it in the database? I'll look it up.
As for putting off potential customers, I think that most of the people who find out about GP Bikes, already know what they're looking for (a sim quality game, not arcade) and are happy to deal with the learning curve. I don't think that a hard bike in the demo would be a deal breaker, on the contrary it worked the other way for me personally. The other option is to have a "Difficulty" slider in the menu and percentages on the aids (like the old SBK2001) and leave it up to the user to decide. But then you're going the milestone way, and that slider will eventually disappear in the future and you're releasing games for smartphones before you know it. I think it is a quite strategic decision that needs to be clear from the start.


I'll probably get back, 'cause this is getting long.

VSMaster

QuoteI can only imagine how difficult it is to try and replicate the exact behaviour of a specific bike. There's so many things apart from the typical power/torque curves and dimensions, like all sorts of friction and aerodynamics coefficients, inertia matrices... I cannot imagine how one would end up in the ballpark without access to original data directly from racing teams. Is it pure guesswork?

That's also true. I don't think it's only guess work, some data can be found on the Internet
Always on the edge

Vini

December 30, 2020, 12:40:21 PM #11 Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 01:27:43 PM by Vini
You can get data for suspension and geometry for most (non-prototype) bikes but many of the important parameters for how the bike feels in GPB are impossible to measure, even if you had the actual bike sitting in your garage for experiments.
So things like chassis flex, tyre coefficients and virtual rider settings have to be defined by trial and error and feel. No matter how realistic the underlying physics engine is, you will always have to add some arbitrary finetuning parameters.
There is a reason why MotoGP teams with their huge budgets are still not using simulators like F1 does. Motorcycle physics is simply too complex to create a simulation that comes close enough to reality that it would actually be useful for developing parts and setups.

VSMaster

Quote from: Vini on December 30, 2020, 12:40:21 PMThere is a reason why MotoGP teams with their huge budgets are still not using simulators like F1 does. Motorcycle physics is simply too complex to create a simulation that comes so close enough to reality that it would actually be useful for developing parts and setups.

+1
Always on the edge

infected247

Quote from: Vini on December 30, 2020, 12:40:21 PMThere is a reason why MotoGP teams with their huge budgets are still not using simulators like F1 does. Motorcycle physics is simply too complex to create a simulation that comes close enough to reality that it would actually be useful for developing parts and setups.
There are industry standard solutions for parts R&D (ie. solving for temperature distribution, deformation stresses, fluid flow etc.) and I think they are definitely used by the major manufacturers, but testing them in a bike simulator is another thing indeed. With respect to car sims, the bike/rider model requires far more degrees of freedom and when you add "realtime" in the equation, you know that you have to start cutting corners. Funny fact, this is one of reasons why flight sims caught on so early, they merely used a few lookup tables for the forces based on orientation. Almost non variable geometry, no stiff springs, and there you have it. But bikes are a whole different world, and it's truly remarkable what Piboso has achieved here.

Ps. What's with the screeching sounds midcorner? is it the knee sliders? it sounds like the bike scraping the tarmac and it definitely wasn't there in beta18

Myst1cPrun3

Quote from: infected247 on December 31, 2020, 10:07:32 AMPs. What's with the screeching sounds midcorner? is it the knee sliders? it sounds like the bike scraping the tarmac and it definitely wasn't there in beta18

Yes it is the knee slider. It is perhaps a little overdone, but that I think is to make up for the fact you cant feel it hitting the ground. You can adjust its volume in one of the files if you wish.