What i noticed...

[Klax75]

Was one of those things when I first starting using GP Bikes last summer, I was still learning and it got turned one then a month later I realized it was still on. :/

[Klax75]

A lot of people use the sticks like the are D-Pads, and repeatedly tap the stick to keep it in the turn. Like you had to on a D-Pad back in the old days. Were the stick needs more of a fluid motion to work best. My right thumb does kind of a circle motion when pushing forward to when controlling the rider, only time I'm not on the edges of the sticks angle are when I am braking in a straight and have to pull back, then push forward again.

[C21]

Did a few laps with DL on but found it far away from beeing realistic. The bike moves faster left to right but in Most cases i Crash When returning Out of lean. It doesn't matter if i Return the Stick to the middle or if i Release it only a but. In both cases i Loose the Front.
I will keep it Off.

[JamoZ]

As far as i can see, DL on controls the rider & bike as one object, while DL off controls the rider weight, which on it's turn controls the bike. Everything i do with DL off makes sense. If i let go off the lean input, the rider will slowly start to sit upright and the bike will follow.

That slow feeling the DL people seem to dislike is just the rider's weight you're transferring and you need to take that into account. Halfway through a chicane you already have to throw the rider to the opposite side to make the next turn. If you are exiting a turn you have to manually lean the rider upright quickly before you apply throttle to prevent highsiding...

dno, these are things that all feel very natural and go without thinking. DL on goes against everything i know about controlling a motorcycle...

But hey, who am i 

[Warlock]

...... It's as if the rider has some rubber bands attached to his body 

LOL     true

[ℊℯℴ]

Its a "style" thing.

But think about riding, your going through a corner and push bar in desired direction. Equivalent of pushing stick in direction. If you want to turn more in rl you push harder. So in sim you move stick further and push more.

Then when its time for exit you gradually release pressure. Just like you have to do with direct lean on. If you arent smooth with it and release too fast the bike will stand up fast, just like rl. You can be mid corner and instantly stand a bike up if desired.

With dl off thats not possible. However, with it off being smooth is much easier, but slower response.

With it on, you now have the control, just as in rl. So you control how quick the bike stands up. If u just let go of stick quick, which is like not pushing on the bar, yes its going to "spring" back up.

I will say dl off has realism too. Not always do you just release pressure on bar to stand back up. Long sweeping corner, yes. But tight corner,  not really. If you want to get vertical quick, you need to push opposite way til there. Just like you do with dl off.

So, at end of day its the feeling you prefer. They are two very different extremes and not one or other is purely realistic. So, i kinda agree a slider bar adjustment would be cool. You could then incrementally adjust toward direct lean on until you find a spot where the bikes reacts and stands up not too slow or too fast for whatever suits your fancy.

[Klax75]

Its a "style" thing.

But think about riding, your going through a corner and push bar in desired direction. Equivalent of pushing stick in direction. If you want to turn more in rl you push harder. So in sim you move stick further and push more.

Then when its time for exit you gradually release pressure. Just like you have to do with direct lean on. If you arent smooth with it and release too fast the bike will stand up fast, just like rl. You can be mid corner and instantly stand a bike up if desired.

With dl off thats not possible. However, with it off being smooth is much easier, but slower response.

With it on, you now have the control, just as in rl. So you control how quick the bike stands up. If u just let go of stick quick, which is like not pushing on the bar, yes its going to "spring" back up.

I will say dl off has realism too. Not always do you just release pressure on bar to stand back up. Long sweeping corner, yes. But tight corner,  not really. If you want to get vertical quick, you need to push opposite way til there. Just like you do with dl off.

So, at end of day its the feeling you prefer. They are two very different extremes and not one or other is purely realistic. So, i kinda agree a slider bar adjustment would be cool. You could then incrementally adjust toward direct lean on until you find a spot where the bikes reacts and stands up not too slow or too fast for whatever suits your fancy.

I have direct lean off, and the bike unless I move the stick to the other side will slowly come up. I am also thinking people aren't setting up there sticks smoothing, under advanced "Lean". I have mine shut off, so my movements are instantaneous. With a high smoothing on even if I release the stick, there is still a few seconds before it goes back to zero position.

[JamoZ]

To be honest, i recall PiBoSo saying on the old forum that DL is only for wheel users, and should not be used with a gamepad...and i can totally understand why.

[Alone]

To be honest, i recall PiBoSo saying on the old forum that DL is only for wheel users, and should not be used with a gamepad...and i can totally understand why.

Yes, I proved with a wheel and works perfect (and using DL off is very weird), but i´m not able to turn it on with the gamepad. 2 options for 2 inputs.

[Ian]

To be honest, i recall PiBoSo saying on the old forum that DL is only for wheel users, and should not be used with a gamepad...and i can totally understand why.

Yes I remember that.

[ℊℯℴ]

To be honest, i recall PiBoSo saying on the old forum that DL is only for wheel users, and should not be used with a gamepad...and i can totally understand why.

Yes I remember that.

Well damn, back to off it goes then. Id rather play the way it was meant to be played.

[HornetMaX]

As far as i can see, DL on controls the rider & bike as one object, while DL off controls the rider weight, which on it's turn controls the bike.

Man, I've explained this at least a fuckzillion times (on this forum and the previous one). No, what you said above is wrong.

The stick you assign to the lean controls the bike target lean angle. The rider lean is handled either manually or automatically, but tat's a separate thing.

DL off means the signal that your stick generates at every instant (i.e. the stick position) goes into a complex filter (Piboso not wanting to reveal further details, understandable) at the exit of which you get the target lean angle (of the bike): this target lean angle is used by the virtual rider to compute the necessary torque to be applied to the handlebar (and, if auto rider lean l/r, the rider lean).

DL on is exactly the same thing, except the filter is not there, no other difference: your stick position is the target lean angle. The fact DL off is faster and twitchier is due to the absence of the filter.

I'll make you a simpler example: imagine you have a line segment with one extremity fixed in the middle of the screen and the other moving left/right from vertical to mimic the position of your stick. When the stick is centered (neutral) the line is vertical. When you move the stick left, the line rotates left.

Now, with the equivalent of direct lean ON, the line position follows instantly, very precisely, the stick position, it's very fast.
With DL off, is slow, chewy: you move your stick very quickly to the right and the line slowly goes to the right. When it's fully right, you release your stick so that it goes quickly to neutral and the line goes slowly to neutral. So slowly that, if you want it to go to neutral faster, you must push your stick to the left and once the line is vertical (or slightly before) put back your stick to neutral.

Now, the example above is not 100% correct: even with DL on, the target lean angle is not reached as fast as you can move your stick, because that would not be poissible on a real bike (you can yank the stixk left/right much faster than you can flip a real bike). That's already some sort of "filtering" that is implemented explicitly by the virtual pilot (the rider has  a max torque he can apply to the bars, plus other details) and by the physics model (you need large torques to flip a 160Kg bike very quickly).

But DL off introduces another level of filtering: a level that seems to have been added just to prevent people for crashing the bike when they move the stick too fast. It's some sort of steering help (as Piboso himself called it in a PM exchange with me).

From a control point of view, when  you have to push the stick to the left (instead of simply to the middle) in order to have the bike go vertical, you're essentially "compensating" (or inverting) the filter. So what's the point of having the filter in in the first place ?

I have worked (I mean professionally) on this kind of problems for 7+ years and I've seen this happen a lot.
A typical example is room temperature control (I'll use some utterly wrong wording here, for the sake of simplicity): you say you want 21deg in the room, you set 21deg on the control system. But if the control system has some heavy filtering applied, the room temperature will rise too slowly. The people will try that: I want 21deg, but in order to get there quickly, I tell the system I want 25deg (so that it will move his ass faster) and once I'm at 21deg, Ill set it back to 21deg. All fine, except it was enough to reduce the filtering and set what you want, 21deg. Much easier.

To be honest, i recall PiBoSo saying on the old forum that DL is only for wheel users, and should not be used with a gamepad...and i can totally understand why.

Not exactly his words: he said DL ON was meant for people with high precision input devices (I think he mentioned joysticks), and that he personally used a pad with DL off.

As far as I can see, not all the pads have precise joysticks (has a thrustmaster something at it was utter crap in terms of joysticks precision), but the xbox 360 pad (for example) is surely precise enough.

Again, I'm not trying to convince anybody that DL on is right, better or more realistic.

But if you are on DL off right now and want to try DL on you'll need to play with it at least 2 weeks (daily): it takes a lot of time to undo what months of practice have done to your brain.
It's the same as if you were trying to move your lean control from the left stick to the right one (or vice versa): it takes a lot, I know as I've done it.

MaX.

[JamoZ]

As far as i can see, DL on controls the rider & bike as one object, while DL off controls the rider weight, which on it's turn controls the bike.

Man, I've explained this at least a fuckzillion times (on this forum and the previous one). No, what you said above is wrong.

I might be wrong yes, thats why i said "as far as i can see". I did not read any of your previous fuckzillion posts about this subject, so i didn`t know , excuse me.

[HornetMaX]

Man, I've explained this at least a fuckzillion times (on this forum and the previous one). No, what you said above is wrong.

I might be wrong yes, thats why i said "as far as i can see". I did not read any of your previous fuckzillion posts about this subject, so i didn`t know , excuse me.

fuckzillion + 1 now No offence, of course.

MaX.

[PiBoSo]

Man, I've explained this at least a fuckzillion times (on this forum and the previous one). No, what you said above is wrong.

I might be wrong yes, thats why i said "as far as i can see". I did not read any of your previous fuckzillion posts about this subject, so i didn`t know , excuse me.

fuckzillion + 1 now No offence, of course.

MaX.

Your posts are always interesting and helpful, but please try to be a bit less aggressive.
Also, gazillion already is a funny number, no need to be vulgar.