This problem i witnessed a long time ago i've discussed it here but noone else seems to be bothered so much by this bug so i decided i open up a topic so all can easily see it and tell their opinions about.
What i have tested is:
1.Go on any track and GRADUALLY press the front brake up to 100% at any speed the wheel just wont lock(i even tried it on a 100% wet track the front wheel just don't want to lock!)
2.Same goes with the rear brake(only this time a button assigned and not an axis) the wheel won't lock
3.I've tried the first step on a gravel part of a track the wheel finally locked, locked but the rider stayed onward and kept going for like 20m with the front wheel locked!
4.Same as the above i've tried the second step(rear brake) on the gravel the wheel locked like 2-3 meters from when i pressed it.
Now this i have discussed with Max but he states(correct me if i lie) that GpBikes at this current state behave right. Well i thing that Max is plain wrong on this matter. Don't get me wrong i appreciate Max and think that he's knowledge exceeds by far mine and propably the rests' of us here-so pls don't move offtopic :).
Since right now i can't make a video myself showing that, i asked 5 different quys over youtube that make videos(chosen based on who i think seems to have more experience) to make one video locking instantly the rear wheel(WITHOUT pressing the front brake, move up on the handlebars or anything you thing might take off weight from the rear) for a fraction of a second just to show that it is possible and not putting them in danger.
Two of them told me that will make this video at some point so i'm still waiting...BUT all 5 admitted(and i can post their replies for the incredulous) that the wheel will lock-INSTANTLY!
Now my opinion on this matter is that, even if you carry this chick (http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/2/8/9/3/4/1/1/FAT-CHICK-BIKE-70965459112.jpeg#FAT%20CHICK%20BIKE) (http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/2/8/9/3/4/1/1/FAT-CHICK-BIKE-70965459112.jpeg#FAT%20CHICK%20BIKE) no matter the speed you have(same applies if you run with 300kmh as 10kmh) if you jump on the rear brake the wheel will lock. Imagine not pressing the brake with your toes but litteraly kicking the pedal with your heel.
Same goes for the front brake even if you press gradually the brake you will never be able to fully press the brake(100%) cause the front wheel will lock or even worse you'll start an endo and end up with the motorcycle on your back.
Also i believe that when your speed is high let's say 200kmh and you quickly press the front brake to 10%(not that i think it can be measured with a percentage but for the sake of the example) the motorcycle will start to lower speed. Now if you press the brake again at 10% but only this time with 20kmh the wheel will lock!
I understand that temperatures raises on the discs under braking and you SHOULD gradually need to press it more and more as your brakes will start to faint, so this is beautifully simulated in GpBikes. But the only thing is that this must be applied on half the distance we now press on our controllers, meaning you MUST NOT have the ability to reach 100% of the brakes, gradually or not, while running the wheel MUST BE LOCKED.
I also understand the physics behind weight, speed and all these things Max explained but i insist that you can lock both front and rear wheels even if you're running on glasspaper with the chick above no matter the speed!
Also please don't get into the discussion that if this changes then our controllers will be too sensitive under braking cause this is a simulation and must remain a simulation no matter what.
BobPP stated ''...i think we have reached the point our controllers become useless...'' talking about an xbox controller propably and not an IAS system style controller or any other where you have actually the ability to simulate brakes.
Even if this is right(which i personally believe it is) the further develop of GpBikes should not be based upon an xbox controller but as in reality!
After all if someone finds the brakes too sensitive he has the ability to change the force applied from the ''inputs'' tab under settings.
Hi tseklias.
Hmmm... This is interesting, as I'm sure I can lock-up my rear brake quite easily, and also end-over the bike with my front brake if I brake too hard(I don't think the front brake does lock-up in real life unless your speed is very low or your healed over(very complicated and different forces acting on the tyre grip depending on your bikes attitude, speed and weight) when braking hard. Hence you get front end washing away if your braking too hard whilst leaning into a corner.
Are you sure you have your brake controller settings correct?
I could be wrong(long time since I used my rear brakes. Lol)..... Anyway. I'll do some tests and see what happens on front and rear brakes for me and report back here. :)
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk_UK on March 21, 2015, 01:08:57 PM
Hi tseklias.
Hmmm... This is interesting, as I'm sure I can lock-up my rear brake quite easily, and also end-over the bike with my front brake if I brake too hard(I don't think the front brake does lock-up in real life unless your speed is very low or your healed over(very complicated and different forces acting on the tyre grip depending on your bikes attitude, speed and weight) when braking hard. Hence you get front end washing away if your braking too hard whilst leaning into a corner.
Are you sure you have your brake controller settings correct?
I could be wrong(long time since I used my rear brakes. Lol)..... Anyway. I'll do some tests and see what happens on front and rear brakes for me and report back here. :)
Hawk.
No my controller is pretty right. I've tested at like 3-4 PCs so far with 3 different controllers(2 xbox360 & a ps3). Just give it a try Hawk go at any track and on the straight press only the rear brake not the front(so weight doesn't move up forward) the wheel won't lock-hell it doesn't even lock under 100% wet track and i also played with the gain input from the settings.
But the problem is not only that it doesn't lock it's the general feeling the brakes gives you that they are WAY too weak.
As to if a motorcycle can actually lock the wheels under braking just think of it like that:
Motorcycles comparing to cars have much less contact patch and less weight right? Except the thing that cars have this thing(i don't know how it's called) that multiplies your pressure, yet cars can EASILY lock the front wheels. We agree so far? If we agree then there's nothing else to discuss cause just this example shows that you can lock the wheels on a motorcycle FAR EASY!
Now if we don't agree, you know cars have also handbrakes where no multiplier interferes. You can or not lock the rear wheels of a car with your handbrake? Yes you can! And still keep in mind the contact patch and the weight of the car PLUS the tiny discs!
You think motorcycle companies will equip you with a braking system that doesn't have the power to stop itself??!?!!?!!?
Even the old style brakes(i don't know the name from this one also) before moving up into discs have the ability to lock the wheel OF COURSE with more pressure than discs but it has the power to lock the wheel.
I don't know how you end up with this conclusion that motorcycles don't have the power to lock their wheels but it is plain wrong.
Haven't you ever seen those races where 10 riders try to line up before entering a tight corner and one falls under breaking(where the front wheel locks and the motorcycle's drops right or left and they kiss the ground) then usually a pile up follows.
I think I'm right saying a front wheel will only lock if the brake is squeezed very hard and fast ie: before the bike weight has been transferred fully forwards and therefore before grip has increased to compensate; or when the front suspension has compressed to its stops, or if too much brake is applied at slow speed when more often a stoppy occurs due to the transfer of weight forwards being too quick.
A rear brake should lock easily once a front brake is applied because all the weight of the rear is transferring to the front - no weight = no grip.
Hence why the best way for a biker to brake is rear first followed by front and release of rear then releasing front smoothly as the bike slows - weight moving backwards, grip decreasing, risk of lock-up increasing.
So, in summary the front brake should lock if squeezed to the Max immediately / if the forks bottom out/ or if too much brake is applied at slow speed. The rear brake will probably not lock on initial application but as a deceleration starts occurring and the weight moves forward the risk of locking hugely increases.
I will have a play on GpB later I'm sure there will be another factor such as the bike being used?
Right then I've been out testing and these are my results. I record what I expected to see and whether or not it did occur based on my previous post.
I tested on both a Moto3 and the Aprilia RSV4 both having the same results.
Only assists on were Rider lean and Auto Clutch (I knew id be stalling a lot)
No control Smoothing, Linearity 100% and Gain 100%
I'm not rigged up to record the video but I analysed brake/wheel timing and reaction using the Orbit mode in replay at 1/5th speed in each case.
-Rear Brake Only full on at 60MPH TARMAC - no lock -(Not Expected should be no lock followed by a lock as weight transfers forward during deceleration) like below
-Rear Brake First then Application of Front Brake as well - no rear lock at first, rear lock as front applied (Expected)
-Rear Brake Only full on at 60MPH GRASS - Lock after 2 metres (Totally Expected - Low grip getting lower as weight transfers forward on deceleration).
-Front Brake Only Quickly Full on at 60MPH TARMAC - no lock but stoppie (Not Expected would of liked a quick lock up before the stoppie threw me 30 ft down road))
- Front Brake on Hard at 60MPH not reducing strength as bike slows - no lock (Not Expected would of expected a lock near to stopping speed)
-Front Brake on Hard on GRASS - front lock up - Expected but the bike is too stable I could even steer with front locked up.
-Untested - Braking with forks bottomed out - couldn't reproduce.
-Untested - Does Auto clutch disengage the engine at low speed which would affect braking? hmmm I doubt it.
-Untested - changes in Linearity and Gain - think you already tested these?
Conclusion - better braking physics than I anticipated. Like everything in life there's room for improvement, and, of course this is based on my knowledge of braking physics which, also like everything, is debate-able.
I hope this helps you out with testing your observations a bit tseklias.
Nick.
Others have already reported that the front brake in GPB seems to be kind of more tolerant now than what it was before. Not going to double check this, but out of memory I can agree with that.
Quote from: tseklias on March 21, 2015, 12:33:47 PM
Also i believe that when your speed is high let's say 200kmh and you quickly press the front brake to 10%(not that i think it can be measured with a percentage but for the sake of the example) the motorcycle will start to lower speed. Now if you press the brake again at 10% but only this time with 20kmh the wheel will lock!
Just to be sure I understand you correctly, why do you think the same breaking force (10%) has a different effect at 200Kmh and at 20Kmh ?
Quote from: tseklias on March 21, 2015, 12:33:47 PM
I understand that temperatures raises on the discs under braking and you SHOULD gradually need to press it more and more as your brakes will start to faint, so this is beautifully simulated in GpBikes.
Actually this is not simulated at all in GPB, as far as I know.
Quote from: tseklias on March 21, 2015, 01:51:34 PM
As to if a motorcycle can actually lock the wheels under braking just think of it like that:
Motorcycles comparing to cars have much less contact patch and less weight right? Except the thing that cars have this thing(i don't know how it's called) that multiplies your pressure, yet cars can EASILY lock the front wheels. We agree so far? If we agree then there's nothing else to discuss cause just this example shows that you can lock the wheels on a motorcycle FAR EASY!
The logic above is totally flawed, it does not show/proof what you are saying it is.
Quote from: tseklias on March 21, 2015, 01:51:34 PM
Now if we don't agree, you know cars have also handbrakes where no multiplier interferes. You can or not lock the rear wheels of a car with your handbrake? Yes you can! And still keep in mind the contact patch and the weight of the car PLUS the tiny discs!
Tiny discs ?!
Quote from: Napalm Nick on March 21, 2015, 04:06:10 PM
I'm not rigged up to record the video but I analysed brake/wheel timing and reaction using the Orbit mode in replay at 1/5th speed in each case.
You may want to to have a look at that: http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1151.0 (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1151.0)
Wheelspeed (f and r) is available in the telemetry.
MaX.
Thanks for the link Max that looks an excellent tool.
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 22, 2015, 12:46:12 AM
Others have already reported that the front brake in GPB seems to be kind of more tolerant now than what it was before. Not going to double check this, but out of memory I can agree with that.
I have witnessed that... so if the brakes were ok in the first place like you admitted at our first conversation why did piboso make a change on that?
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 22, 2015, 12:46:12 AM
Just to be sure I understand you correctly, why do you think the same breaking force (10%) has a different effect at 200Kmh and at 20Kmh ?
I told you i'm not a physician expert so an approach to try to explain it will make me sound stupid instead of giving you the image. Yet does this happen or not? My belief is that it happens out of experience i know i'm right.
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 22, 2015, 12:46:12 AM
Actually this is not simulated at all in GPB, as far as I know.
Well if this is not simulated can you please tell me why can i reach 100% of the front brake pressing it GRADUALLY without locking the front wheel? Why does this happen why?
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 22, 2015, 12:46:12 AM
The logic above is totally flawed, it does not show/proof what you are saying it is.
Not at all! I think calling it a flaw without stating why is not a try to explain it, it's a try to cancel me... but anyway
Opel astra opc 2013m: 2x355 discs pressed by 4 piston calipers 245 tires
Suzuki gsxr 600 04m: 2x300 discs pressed by 4 piston calipers(we don't know the contact patch of this)
So here's why compared to a car(710 total diameter of discs) a motorcycle(600 total) has huge brakes. Now the car is not a racing machine(at least not the example i brought), you're supposed to put all your family in(supposing you're 5 members total) raise the car's weight by a lot and still the car will lock the wheel under any circumstances easily! Now in this example if you think that the gsxr(and i chose an 600cc not a 1000cc to be more comparable) can't lock it's wheels well then what else can i say to give you an image, i don't know.
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 22, 2015, 12:46:12 AM
Tiny discs ?!
Well yeah compared to a bike yes the car has tiny discs at the back, like it does to the front. Yet once more despite this difference the car has the ability to lock it's wheels. If it didn't then there wasn't a reason to invent ABS. Think about it like that.
I don't know how else to state it to show you that the brakes system and how they function now in Gp needs massive changes. If a whole community of motorcycle simulators members does believe that motorcycles doesn't have the power to lock it's wheel well then i can't say anything more cause i think it will become gaza strip here. I don't know maybe the whole matter needs to be posted at a REAL RIDERS forum.
One more thing Max, if you think that Gp at the current state doesn't need changes why don't you go outside showing us how you can reach gradually 100% of your front brakes and not lock the wheel aswell as how can you heelkick the rear brake and not lock the wheel also? Im just desperate and mad(angry) to show you you're wrong on this matter so for the love of god don't do it!!!
Quote from: tseklias on March 22, 2015, 11:02:00 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 22, 2015, 12:46:12 AM
Others have already reported that the front brake in GPB seems to be kind of more tolerant now than what it was before. Not going to double check this, but out of memory I can agree with that.
I have witnessed that... so if the brakes were ok in the first place like you admitted at our first conversation why did piboso make a change on that?
Your initial message (a while ago) dealt only with rear brake locking. You stated it should always happen, instantly. It's wrong.
Quote from: tseklias on March 22, 2015, 11:02:00 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 22, 2015, 12:46:12 AM
The logic above is totally flawed, it does not show/proof what you are saying it is.
Not at all! I think calling it a flaw without stating why is not a try to explain it, it's a try to cancel me... but anyway
You're trying to prove something via a logical deduction by analogy between two totally different cases, cars and bikes. See below.
Quote from: tseklias on March 22, 2015, 11:02:00 AM
Opel astra opc 2013m: 2x355 discs pressed by 4 piston calipers 245 tires
Suzuki gsxr 600 04m: 2x300 discs pressed by 4 piston calipers(we don't know the contact patch of this)
So here's why compared to a car(710 total diameter of discs) a motorcycle(600 total) has huge brakes. Now the car is not a racing machine(at least not the example i brought), you're supposed to put all your family in(supposing you're 5 members total) raise the car's weight by a lot and still the car will lock the wheel under any circumstances easily! Now in this example if you think that the gsxr(and i chose an 600cc not a 1000cc to be more comparable) can't lock it's wheels well then what else can i say to give you an image, i don't know.
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 22, 2015, 12:46:12 AM
Tiny discs ?!
Well yeah compared to a bike yes the car has tiny discs at the back, like it does to the front. Yet once more despite this difference the car has the ability to lock it's wheels. If it didn't then there wasn't a reason to invent ABS. Think about it like that.
You're assuming the power of a braking system depends on the disc diameters (and only on it). If you compare two bikes, using the disc diameter to compare can be roughly true (assuming everything else is similar), but comparing a bike and a car, this is totally not true. Way too different. Pads characteristics, pads surface, disk thickness and mass and, of course, tire characteristics, CoG position are all factors that make your comparison (and your deduction) irrelevant.
BTW, in your example the car has 355mm discs, the bike 200mm discs and you say the car has tiny discs. I'm lost ...
Quote from: tseklias on March 22, 2015, 11:02:00 AM
I don't know how else to state it to show you that the brakes system and how they function now in Gp needs massive changes. If a whole community of motorcycle simulators members does believe that motorcycles doesn't have the power to lock it's wheel well then i can't say anything more cause i think it will become gaza strip here. I don't know maybe the whole matter needs to be posted at a REAL RIDERS forum.
We have some here (and some of them have a good understanding of why a bike does what it does).
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 22, 2015, 12:46:12 AM
One more thing Max, if you think that Gp at the current state doesn't need changes why don't you go outside showing us how you can reach gradually 100% of your front brakes and not lock the wheel aswell as how can you heelkick the rear brake and not lock the wheel also?
I asked the same to you for the rear brake a long ago and haven't seen anything coming ... not that it would prove much though: I don't have a motogp rear tyre.
Can a bike lock the rear or the front ? Yes of course, in some situations (otherwise we wouldn't have ABS systems for bikes).
Does it happen instantly ? No, never.
Does it happen in GPB ? Under some circumstances yes (both rear and front).
Should it happen more (or more easily) ? I don't know, I'm open to riders' feedback on this.
You seem to think that a good braking system must allow you to lock the front. The part in quotes below is taken from the book "MotoGp Technology" (N.Spalding, second edition, pages 249-250):
"... These brakes are very powerful, and it is no longer the size of the brake, or the amount of braking that is available, that is the limiting factor on a racing motorcycle. Front tyre grip is now so good that, with the height of the center of gravity and the quality of the front tyre and suspension, with most brakes it is possible to flip the bike over in a giant stoppie if too much brake is applied."
[read this carefully]
"In MotoGP, the work of the brakes has increased as the tyres have evolved. It used to be that the tyre grip was the limiting factor, but now tyres have developed so much that the only way to achieve maximum braking is to slam the brakes on hard in order to squash the tyre hard against the track, effectively increasing the the are in contact with the track and, in turn, increasing the amount of stopping force that can be applied. This strategy has been so successful that the limiting factor now is a motorcycle's propensity to trip over the front tyre, and flip over, if the brakes are applied too savagely."
In case it's too hard to understand, it says that (at least on top end racing bikes), you don't lock the front that easily because most of the time, before being able to lock, your bike will be flipping over.
Designing a braking system that can provide more braking force than what the tyres can handle (on straight and under load) is always bad because that extra braking force can never be used.
That's why they don't do that: they design to get the max breaking power the bike+tyre can handle, then they try to minimize the mass (which is rotating and unsprung, so a gain there is very important).
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 22, 2015, 01:30:29 PM
You're assuming the power of a braking system depends on the disc diameters (and only on it). If you compare two bikes, using the disc diameter to compare can be roughly true (assuming everything else is similar), but comparing a bike and a car, this is totally not true. Way too different. Pads characteristics, pads surface, disk thickness and mass and, of course, tire characteristics, CoG position are all factors that make your comparison (and your deduction) irrelevant.
BTW, in your example the car has 355mm discs, the bike 200mm discs and you say the car has tiny discs. I'm lost ...
No the motorcycle has a total of 300x2 discs for a very small contact patch the car has 355x2 discs for a 245x2 total tire patch. So the car comparing to the car has tiny discs.
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 22, 2015, 12:46:12 AM
I asked the same to you for the rear brake a long ago and haven't seen anything coming ... not that it would prove much though: I don't have a motogp rear tyre.
Can a bike lock the rear or the front ? Yes of course, in some situations (otherwise we wouldn't have ABS systems for bikes).
Does it happen instantly ? No, never.
Does it happen in GPB ? Under some circumstances yes (both rear and front).
Should it happen more (or more easily) ? I don't know, I'm open to riders' feedback on this.
You seem to think that a good braking system must allow you to lock the front. The part in quotes below is taken from the book "MotoGp Technology" (N.Spalding, second edition, pages 249-250):
"... These brakes are very powerful, and it is no longer the size of the brake, or the amount of braking that is available, that is the limiting factor on a racing motorcycle. Front tyre grip is now so good that, with the height of the center of gravity and the quality of the front tyre and suspension, with most brakes it is possible to flip the bike over in a giant stoppie if too much brake is applied."
[read this carefully]
"In MotoGP, the work of the brakes has increased as the tyres have evolved. It used to be that the tyre grip was the limiting factor, but now tyres have developed so much that the only way to achieve maximum braking is to slam the brakes on hard in order to squash the tyre hard against the track, effectively increasing the the are in contact with the track and, in turn, increasing the amount of stopping force that can be applied. This strategy has been so successful that the limiting factor now is a motorcycle's propensity to trip over the front tyre, and flip over, if the brakes are applied too savagely."
In case it's too hard to understand, it says that (at least on top end racing bikes), you don't lock the front that easily because most of the time, before being able to lock, your bike will be flipping over.
Designing a braking system that can provide more braking force than what the tyres can handle (on straight and under load) is always bad because that extra braking force can never be used.
That's why they don't do that: they design to get the max breaking power the bike+tyre can handle, then they try to minimize the mass (which is rotating and unsprung, so a gain there is very important).
Yeah i read Max, yet i don't see somewhere written that it can't lock the wheel. I really doubt that if for example you run with 300kmh and you jump on the front brake you're gonna flip over. The front wheel will lock in the example above. If you run with lower speed then yes it is most likely that the motorcycle will flip over. You also said before that the shifting time mustn't be faster cause Gp doesn't currently simulate modern MotoGP physics. Yet the ability of a huge tire grip that will flip the bike over is simulated(modern). Yes, no, i like, i don't like... decide!
Also i don't have a problem with flip overs, my problem is that if YOU GRADUALLY PRESS THE FRONT BRAKE YOU CAN REACH 100% AND THE BIKE WON'T FLIP OVER OR LOCK THE WHEEL. I can't make it more clear please read carefully. If also you run into grass the WHEEL LOCKS AND THE RIDERS KEEPS GOING TILL THE BIKE STOP. THIS IS TOTALLY FAKE! No man in the world can lock the front wheel and go for let's say 20m and stay on the bike! I currently haven't witnessed any front lock in Gpb as you say, so if you ever did please say it or better post a video here. Meaning the bike is standing upright(vertical).
Well if it was so easy for me to make the video i would have not asked random guys on youtube to help me with that neither i would write down lines and lines here. The story of my life?! I don't think so...
Yet BE SURE that when i have this chance i will make the video.
As you want man, I tried. Good luck.
MaX.
At very high speed you brake as hard as possible Initially!, You dont apply more brake as you get closer to the corner. The tyre loves hard braking. It Does not lock up..
Maybe when they tried anti-dive forks the front could lock up..? They scrapped that idea for a reason tho..
Personally I think the brakes in GPB are excellent! Sure, slightly more forgiving than previous beta's but probably down to more feel..
I raced today ;D I was abusing the front brake right into the corner.. As long as you dont suddenly apply more brake, you can get away with braking with good lean angle too.. Bike tyres are amazing ;)
Look at pedrosa's endo at motegi ;D he braked hard enough with carbon brakes for the rear to lift.. Rear lift will always happen before locking up.. Thats why they dont lock up :D
that would defend on the bike configuration i guess.. in my bike (cbr 600 f 2001) the wheel blocks even b4 bike thinking of lifting rear wheel...
anyway i think any bike with cold tyres and without abs would lock b4 lift the rear
So are you saying your front wheel/tyre locks up and skids when braking on your bike?? :o
https://www.youtube.com/v/aDfbm4lXuvk
https://www.youtube.com/v/vBaTqVi3_qY
https://www.youtube.com/v/90rQJQLNvKU1:24
I dont know man.. I mean road and track riding are 2 completely different things...
Interesting videos.
The first is odd I wouldn't expect that so easily unless there is damp/oil etc but it goes with my theory in above posts of possible to do it by overbraking at slow speeds (especially on a long wheelbase bike).
The second is nothing to do with brakes - his bike has an engine seizure by the look and sound of it.
I cant watch the third, these vids make me feel sick inside (yeh I know I'm a pansy give me some puppies).
and yes road and track / roadbike and racer / road tyres and race tyres are going to be factors.
This one proves my quick and hard theory in my posts above (did anyone read em?)
https://www.youtube.com/v/_UdBtAo-pUY
Interesting stuff
And this guy has read my posts and makes a living out of it hahaha ;D
https://www.youtube.com/v/4ED8BfPtaTw
Good stuff! ;)
Are you Nick Lenatsch??
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on March 24, 2015, 07:21:53 AM
Are you Nick Lenatsch??
haha lol no, Ive forgotten more than he ever knew lol. :D
GPBikes not Simulated thermal.(and brake fluid (I Dont saw any game of simulated it :P))
so, GPbikes brakeforce has been determined Rider braking force, MasterCylinder diameter, leverRatio and Disc
Piboso Set Braking parameter for effective.(so Modder follow it)
I was testing. it is braking force to Highpower bite(small MC diameter or short lever ratio or higher Rider braking force)
as a result, Tyre were Locking easy and suddenly.
I captured it Movie. let's watch it. it is all
http://www.youtube.com/v/rnvw6Zqngbk
Piboso(and modders) limited total braking bite power for Ridavirity.
If you want, my mods set High power bite ratio(or diameter)for Tyre Locking.(it may difficult to Ride... :P
sry for bad english :-\
Nice Yohji,
interesting to see the front lock before the 'endo'
Quote from: Napalm Nick on March 24, 2015, 07:59:10 AM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on March 24, 2015, 07:21:53 AM
Are you Nick Lenatsch??
haha lol no, Ive forgotten more than he ever knew lol. :D
Too bad, that would have been nice :)
BTW, yes I read your (good) post: only comment I'd make is that load transfer due to rear brake is small (that concerns your 1st case).
MaX.
Thanks Max,
And I agree much smaller - an actual lock in this circumstance will be very bike specific methinx.
Quote from: Yohji on March 24, 2015, 08:16:12 AM
GPBikes not Simulated thermal.(and brake fluid (I Dont saw any game of simulated it :P))
so, GPbikes brakeforce has been determined Rider braking force, MasterCylinder diameter, leverRatio and Disc
Piboso Set Braking parameter for effective.(so Modder follow it)
I was testing. it is braking force to Highpower bite(small MC diameter or short lever ratio or higher Rider braking force)
as a result, Tyre were Locking easy and suddenly.
I captured it Movie. let's watch it. it is all
....
Piboso(and modders) limited total braking bite power for Ridavirity.
If you want, my mods set High power bite ratio(or diameter)for Tyre Locking.(it may difficult to Ride... :P
sry for bad english :-\
Oh this is exactly what i meant Yohji please can you provide us with information on how to accomplish what you have done. I love how the rear wheel locked and rolled again while weight transfers on the rear of the motorcycle ;D. I would also like a lot to see a video of you doing it in wet surface(i got great wonder if the rider will lowside or again flip over).
@Max please don't take it the wrong way. This is a discussion over a disagreement. If you feel i offended you in some way i'm sincerely sorry this isn't what i wanted. I'm just desperate to explain to you.
Quote from: tseklias on March 24, 2015, 08:34:06 PM
@Max please don't take it the wrong way. This is a discussion over a disagreement. If you feel i offended you in some way i'm sincerely sorry this isn't what i wanted. I'm just desperate to explain to you.
No hard feelings man.
I think Yohji simply changed brakes settings in the garage (minimum leverage at front, minimum master cylinder at rear).
Hard tires have less grip (so more chances to lock).
MaX.
P.S.
I did a quick check on my bike (cb1000r): couldn't push it as much as I wanted (there were cars on the road), but I didn't lock the rear until very very low speeds (and my rear tire is nowhere near a motogp tire, without talking about the road vs track surface).
Did also a check on one of my cars (a Citroen C4, shame): handbrake (alone) does not lock the rear wheels (I think I was at 60Kmh or close).
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 25, 2015, 07:49:04 AM
I did a quick check on my bike (cb1000r): couldn't push it as much as I wanted (there were cars on the road), but I didn't lock the rear until very very low speeds (and my rear tire is nowhere near a motogp tire, without talking about the road vs track surface).
Did also a check on one of my cars (a Citroen C4, shame): handbrake (alone) does not lock the rear wheels (I think I was at 60Kmh or close).
MaX.
Max are you becoming a stunt driver now... lol
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 25, 2015, 07:49:04 AM
I did a quick check on my bike (cb1000r): couldn't push it as much as I wanted (there were cars on the road), but I didn't lock the rear until very very low speeds (and my rear tire is nowhere near a motogp tire, without talking about the road vs track surface).
Did also a check on one of my cars (a Citroen C4, shame): handbrake (alone) does not lock the rear wheels (I think I was at 60Kmh or close).
It still seems weird to me that the rear of your cb haven't locked. As for the car the c4 hasn't got a hydraulic handbrake(as most family cars) and if i remember correctly the c4 has seperately rear suspension arms which will also make it harder to lock. Yet if you start your car from 0kmh with the handbrake pulled the rear wheels mustn't start rollling(considering your alone in the car). Theres plenty of videos in youtube where usually women or old men forget the handbrake and drive around with the rear wheels locked.
Now i will try once more to explain to you what i mean. The xbox controller needs let's say 0.5kg pressure to reach 100%, the g25s brake pedal need a pressure of around 8kg(example). If we presume that the front brake of a motorcycle needs also 8kg pressure to reach 100%, it will be moved from the gray position(0kg) to the red position(8kg)(http://i.imgur.com/XlrvSba.png) (http://i.imgur.com/XlrvSba.png)
Now if you press so much the front brake imo you will flip over or lock the wheel and lowside or both lock the wheel and flip. Yet i don't think theres a chance you can ever press fully the front brake(except when youre stopped-to test) under any circumstances cause the result won't be good.
Can you understand what i'm talking about now? The brakes' behaviour must be determined of the percentage you apply on brakes and not the feel of pressure it gives you.
I remember there was times while i was racing in rFactor(imo best simulation ever-together with lfs) where i braked at around 35-40% and the wheels locked. I remember exactly racing in nordschleife even on dry with a mid engine car you had to show real skills under braking not to lock the front wheels. Even worse was when trying to brake on downhills. On wet downhills with a mid engine car?!? I think if your cat stepped on the brake it will lock ;D
Imo we must emphasize a lot on how the brakes function and behave cause i better fight on the brakes than on the throttle. The fight all riders have when they ride it's the braking distance and how effective they are.
Spreading the difference here gives the experienced riders(gpb or real) a cutting edge of difference between them and the not experienced ones. To my example i started racing rFactor when i was a kid with a... keyboard. My first impressions: fake brakes, fake steer, fake wheelspin! As i mature and see 'back' you can imagine what i think...
I believe motogp riders nowadays start at maxing braking of 70-75% and reach gradually 80-85% maximum braking by the end of the race as brakes start to faint. Now if we try to brake with that percentage with our motos on public roads it's not possible, cause ull simply fall. I don't know maybe some different types of tarmacs must be added. Keep in mind that i haven't ever raced on a track despite i have over 10y of experince on public roads you have to admit that the difference must be high.
Car example: hydraulic handbrake or not it doesn't matter a lot. A handbrake on a car (except rally) is not designed to lock the rear and not even to stop a car. It's designed to prevent the car from moving when parked. To me it's really really no surprise it doesn't lock the rear.
Bike example: you seem to think that the braking force is driven by the amount of movement of the brake lever. Especially for racing bikes, this is not true: it's the pressure. The lever moves very little once the pads are touching the disc: the better your braking system (master cylinder, lines, calipers) the less it will move after contact.
Braking in rFactor: can be due to plenty of things, including the fact that for correct feeling you should use a load cell on your brake pedal (and not a spring and a potentiometer). Same is true for GPB. A presure feedback (like th eone provided by a loadcell) is much better than a position feedback (as the one provided by the triggers or sticks of our joypads).
Next time I can pick up my bike I'll see if I can try more seriuously. What I can already say is that in my underground garage (dusty cement surface) I can lock the rear easily, even a light pressure locks the rear (but at ultra low speed). That's normal, it's due to the surface grip (same thing you see in GPB on the grass). But again, a motogp rear tire is lightyears away from my humble Michelin Pilotwhatever 3...
Anyway, as shown by Yohji, changing stuff in the garage obviously give you more breaking and more chances to lock the wheels / flip the bike.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 25, 2015, 08:15:37 PM
Car example: hydraulic handbrake or not it doesn't matter a lot. A handbrake on a car (except rally) is not designed to lock the rear and not even to stop a car. It's designed to prevent the car from moving when parked. To me it's really really no surprise it doesn't lock the rear.
Bike example: you seem to think that the braking force is driven by the amount of movement of the brake lever. Especially for racing bikes, this is not true: it's the pressure. The lever moves very little once the pads are touching the disc: the better your braking system (master cylinder, lines, calipers) the less it will move after contact.
Braking in rFactor: can be due to plenty of things, including the fact that for correct feeling you should use a load cell on your brake pedal (and not a spring and a potentiometer). Same is true for GPB. A presure feedback (like th eone provided by a loadcell) is much better than a position feedback (as the one provided by the triggers or sticks of our joypads).
Next time I can pick up my bike I'll see if I can try more seriuously. What I can already say is that in my underground garage (dusty cement surface) I can lock the rear easily, even a light pressure locks the rear (but at ultra low speed). That's normal, it's due to the surface grip (same thing you see in GPB on the grass). But again, a motogp rear tire is lightyears away from my humble Michelin Pilotwhatever 3...
Anyway, as shown by Yohji, changing stuff in the garage obviously give you more breaking and more chances to lock the wheels / flip the bike.
MaX.
Yes for the car example plus in drift setups also.
And yes partly for the bike example. I know how the brakes in a motorcycle function(i can dissassemble down any motorcycle or car to the very last pieces-as most of my years worked at repair shops) yet i lack motorcycle setup knowledge and electronics as i lack track surface experience. I agree on your example that once the pads touch the discs that's where the breaking starts as also that pressure after that point depends on how good quality your brakes are(the whole chain).
Yet i don't understand how gpb brakes function. I mean when i press my controller at 10% for example is it past the point where the pads touch the discs or is it the whole movement the brake lever is moving? If the first applies here(according to the feel it gives imo the first is atm in use) then adding a dead zone of 20-30% to your front brakes axis must come closer to reality. In reality modern motorcycles have numbers on the brake lever indicating the position theyll stand.
Also Max please can you explain what have Yohji changed in terms of physics. I mean at start i changed these numbers to the maximum thinking that this will move the calipers more on the outter circle of the wheel so i can have a better breaking.
Also thanks to Yohji for his information, yes the breaking now seems more real with these settings.
Yet all this testing has revealed another problem:
Breaking on grass fields locks the wheels yet the motorcycle stand upright and going(with the front wheel locked constantly)-this problem has also been witnessed by Napalm's testing.
Quote from: tseklias on March 26, 2015, 03:26:21 PM
Yet i don't understand how gpb brakes function. I mean when i press my controller at 10% for example is it past the point where the pads touch the discs or is it the whole movement the brake lever is moving? If the first applies here(according to the feel it gives imo the first is atm in use) then adding a dead zone of 20-30% to your front brakes axis must come closer to reality.
If you set no deadzone on your brake input, the input will translate directly into a pressure on the pads. That's why not using a load cell feels for brakes "wrong": the
position of your input device (joystick, joypad trigger or even a g27 pedal) is translated into a
pressure. With a load cell, a
pressure is translated into a
pressure: should give a better feeling, obviously.
Actually, there's an hardcoded deadzone anyway (in the bike.cfg, Brake section, Deadzone), not sure how to interpret it but it could be to simulate the first part of lever movement (not generating any pressure on the discs).
Quote from: tseklias on March 26, 2015, 03:26:21 PM
In reality modern motorcycles have numbers on the brake lever indicating the position theyll stand.
Yes, but these numbers have nothing to do with the "deadzone", they simply put the lever closer to the handlebar. They don't give you anything more: no faster brake reaction, no bigger braking force. It's just a comfort thing: if you have small hands you may want the lever to be closer to the handlebar.
Quote from: tseklias on March 26, 2015, 03:26:21 PM
Also Max please can you explain what have Yohji changed in terms of physics. I mean at start i changed these numbers to the maximum thinking that this will move the calipers more on the outter circle of the wheel so i can have a better breaking.
Things you can change in the garage:
- Front leverage: the smaller (yes, smaller) the leverage, the bigger the maximum braking force you have. You may lose some sensitivity of course.
- Rear master cylinder: the smaller (yes, smaller) the cylinder diameter, the bigger the maximum braking force you have. You may lose some sensitivity of course.
Things you can change in the bike.cfg (that would make a modded bike, careful):
- Rider max force: that's the max force the rider can apply to the lever (I think it's expressed in Kg, bit strange to me).
- Front leverage and rear master cylinder: you can change the values (multiple values are allowed)
It is curious that in the .cfg you can also define a front master cylinder and a rear leverage (even multiple ones), but these are not exposed in the garage.
The simultaneous usage of master cylinder and leverage may be a bit redundant (for our purposes at least), but both settings should probably be exposed in the garage I think.
At least at the front, it is definitely routine to play with the leverage and the master cylinder.
Quote from: tseklias on March 26, 2015, 03:26:21 PM
Yet all this testing has revealed another problem: Breaking on grass fields locks the wheels yet the motorcycle stand upright and going(with the front wheel locked constantly)-this problem has also been witnessed by Napalm's testing.
Yeah, that's a bit weird ... not sure what could explain it ... OK the surface is perfectly flat, and with the bike perfectly vertical and steering centred, it could slide keeping that stance, but still ... being able to move significantly the handlebars with a locked front wheel on grass without falling ... surely not something I would try :)
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 26, 2015, 09:06:43 PM
Quote from: tseklias on March 26, 2015, 03:26:21 PM
In reality modern motorcycles have numbers on the brake lever indicating the position theyll stand.
Yes, but these numbers have nothing to do with the "deadzone", they simply put the lever closer to the handlebar. They don't give you anything more: no faster brake reaction, no bigger braking force. It's just a comfort thing: if you have small hands you may want the lever to be closer to the handlebar.
Yes indeed that's the function in real life. Yet adding some deadzone to gpb isn't like playing with this setting of the brake lever? The only side effect you'll have is a more sensitive brake in gpb as you shorten the overall brake area of the axis. In reality you only add/remove deadzone by changing this number to the overall movement the brake lever can make, but that doesn't affect nothing else beyond that.
Not really because in real life, no matter which setting you dial on the brake lever, you always have the same amount of "deadzone".
MaX.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on March 22, 2015, 10:03:07 PM
At very high speed you brake as hard as possible Initially!, You dont apply more brake as you get closer to the corner. The tyre loves hard braking. It Does not lock up..
(...)
I raced today ;D I was abusing the front brake right into the corner.. As long as you dont suddenly apply more brake, you can get away with braking with good lean angle too.. Bike tyres are amazing ;)
I completely agree with you Bob.
I use a Dunlop D211 tyres and even with a hard front the tyre will not lock up
if the bike is upright no matter how hard you pull on the lever (once the so called "weight transfer" is over, which is usually super quick). The rear wheel lifts up way before any lockup happens.
The only exceptions nowadays with race tyres in my experience are:
- If the bike is leaned over a lot, then you can lock the front (and if you release it quick enough you can sometimes save it),
- On a straight line, if you grab the brakes with no progressivity at all in the first split second (like 0.1s), then you have no load on your front tyre and therefore no grip and you can actually lock it. But if you're even just a little bit progressive at the first touch of the brake then you can brake like a madman after that.
When I'm braking on a straight line on the track I don't worry at all about the front locking unless there's a big bump somewhere which would unload my suspension. I only worry about my rear wheel lifting - that's the limit. Bob you're most likely a better rider than me but I think you probably agree? By the way how did the race go? dry after all?
Overall I think a lot of people don't realize how much grip race tyres have nowadays. It's really crazy to be honest, especially how much you can trail brake now, I practiced trail braking at the track 2 weeks ago and it's really insane how much grip there is.
And in MotoGP even with a bit of lean angle they can lift the rear nowadays:
(http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/PhotoGallerys/Pedrosa-day-2.jpg)
Quote from: EdouardB on April 01, 2015, 09:25:28 AM
I use a Dunlop D211 tyres and even with a hard front the tyre will not lock up if the bike is upright no matter how hard you pull on the lever (once the so called "weight transfer" is over, which is usually super quick). The rear wheel lifts up way before any lockup happens.
And not to be unfair to Dunlop D211, but MotoGP tyres are a couple of leagues above that :)
Quote from: EdouardB on April 01, 2015, 09:25:28 AM
- On a straight line, if you grab the brakes with no progressivity at all in the first split second (like 0.1s), then you have no load on your front tyre and therefore no grip and you can actually lock it.
Or you can try this ... but I suggest you don't :)
https://www.youtube.com/v/quoYHbgF6KY
Quote from: EdouardB on April 01, 2015, 09:25:28 AM
And in MotoGP even with a bit of lean angle they can lift the rear nowadays:
(http://images.motorcycle-usa.com/PhotoGallerys/Pedrosa-day-2.jpg)
Front fork bottoming out, look at how squashed the front tyre is.
And that's Pedrosa, he has some sort of arthritis ... :)
MaX.
@EdouardB
Yeah man thats tricky if you hit a bump on the brakes, once you know about it its ok but if It catches you by suprise its nasty lol.
The weather was amazing for the meeting! Couldnt beleive it lol. I did two pre-injection 600 races, 2nd and 2nd (beat by my housemate lol) and an open race which I won! Very happy, great weekend ;D
Iv used for a while pirelli supercorsa sp.. 180/55. They are great but basicly a road tyre.. Last round I use pirelli supercorsa sc0 and sc1 180/60 AMAZING!
Congratulations for the races!!!
Yeah the SP are really road tyres.
I use Dunlop D211, medium front, hard rear, they are very good as well, especially the rear. Very sensitive to tyre pressure, on the wrong pressure the rear just wears much faster.
I've also used Michelin Power One a while ago but haven't tried the power cup (and the power cup ultimate is coming out soon).
Have also ridden Bridgestone slicks on the TZ250 but honestly disliked them, the front tyre felt super stiff and many 250 racers confirmed that the front was too stiff for a 250.
What other tyres have you ridden? I'm interested in your feedback.
D211 and D212 great tyres! personally i think dunlop make the best tyres going now. not sure about dunlop slicks though?
il probably use the D212 next..
not sure if i can get too many of these SC's
i really like pirelli.. on the roadbikes too! always the diablo corsa 3 for the road even though they are old now..
yeah so iv used.. bridgestone battlax's.. dunlops D211, D212, other road versions good too! pirelli SC1, SC0, SP, Corsa 3, Metzeler not too keen for some reason although they basicly are pirelli lol.
couldnt tell you a great deal about slicks.. :-\
D212's and pirelli SC's its between them for me..
The only issue I have with the D212 is that they're significantly more expensive than the D211. I get the D211 for about 280€ a set. The D212 are closer to 400
About the slicks, right now the best seem to be the Dunlop KR which are on another level. At least that's what my national superbike friends tell me.
As for Metzeler, everyone says they're the same as Pirelli's (they are from the same factory) but a lot of people also say they wear differently so maybe they're not so much the same...
Agreed.. Cost of tyres is a big hit.. I use scrubbed tyres alot to be honest, mainly good enough for my needs. Always have a new set too just incase but I use up the srubbed tyres as much as I can to keep cost down.
Just depends how many heat cycles they have done.. If you keep them warm all day with the warmers they last quite well.. If u let tyres go hot and cold to many times it kills them.