brakes wrong simulation

[tseklias]

https://www.youtube.com/v/aDfbm4lXuvk
https://www.youtube.com/v/vBaTqVi3_qY
https://www.youtube.com/v/90rQJQLNvKU1:24

[BOBR6 84]

I dont know man.. I mean road and track riding are 2 completely different things...

[Napalm Nick]

Interesting videos.

The first is odd I wouldn't expect that so easily unless there is damp/oil etc but it goes with my theory in above posts of possible to do it by overbraking at slow speeds (especially on a long wheelbase bike).

The second is nothing to do with brakes - his bike has an engine seizure by the look and sound of it.

I cant watch the third, these vids make me feel sick inside (yeh I know I'm a pansy give me some puppies).

and yes road and track / roadbike and racer / road tyres and race tyres are going to be factors.

This one proves my quick and hard theory in my posts above (did anyone read em?)

https://www.youtube.com/v/_UdBtAo-pUY

Interesting stuff

And this guy has read my posts and makes a living out of it hahaha 

https://www.youtube.com/v/4ED8BfPtaTw

[BOBR6 84]

Good stuff! 

Are you Nick Lenatsch??

[Napalm Nick]

Are you Nick Lenatsch??

haha lol no, Ive forgotten more than he ever knew lol.

[Yohji]

GPBikes not Simulated thermal.(and brake fluid (I Dont saw any game of simulated it  ))

so, GPbikes brakeforce has been determined Rider braking force, MasterCylinder diameter, leverRatio and Disc
Piboso Set Braking parameter for effective.(so Modder follow it)

I was testing. it is braking force to Highpower bite(small MC diameter or short lever ratio or higher Rider braking force)

as a result, Tyre were Locking easy and suddenly.

I captured it Movie. let's watch it. it is all
http://www.youtube.com/v/rnvw6Zqngbk

Piboso(and modders) limited total braking bite power for Ridavirity.

If you want, my mods set High power bite ratio(or diameter)for Tyre Locking.(it may difficult to Ride...

sry for bad english

[Napalm Nick]

Nice Yohji,
interesting to see the front lock before the 'endo'

[HornetMaX]

Are you Nick Lenatsch??

haha lol no, Ive forgotten more than he ever knew lol.

Too bad, that would have been nice

BTW, yes I read your (good) post: only comment I'd make is that load transfer due to rear brake is small (that concerns your 1st case).

MaX.

[Napalm Nick]

Thanks Max,
And I agree much smaller - an actual lock in this circumstance will be very bike specific methinx.

[tseklias]

GPBikes not Simulated thermal.(and brake fluid (I Dont saw any game of simulated it  ))

so, GPbikes brakeforce has been determined Rider braking force, MasterCylinder diameter, leverRatio and Disc
Piboso Set Braking parameter for effective.(so Modder follow it)

I was testing. it is braking force to Highpower bite(small MC diameter or short lever ratio or higher Rider braking force)

as a result, Tyre were Locking easy and suddenly.

I captured it Movie. let's watch it. it is all
....

Piboso(and modders) limited total braking bite power for Ridavirity.

If you want, my mods set High power bite ratio(or diameter)for Tyre Locking.(it may difficult to Ride...

sry for bad english

Oh this is exactly what i meant Yohji please can you provide us with information on how to accomplish what you have done. I love how the rear wheel locked and rolled again while weight transfers on the rear of the motorcycle  . I would also like a lot to see a video of you doing it in wet surface(i got great wonder if the rider will lowside or again flip over).

@Max please don't take it the wrong way. This is a discussion over a disagreement. If you feel i offended you in some way i'm sincerely sorry this isn't what i wanted. I'm just desperate to explain to you.

[HornetMaX]

@Max please don't take it the wrong way. This is a discussion over a disagreement. If you feel i offended you in some way i'm sincerely sorry this isn't what i wanted. I'm just desperate to explain to you.

No hard feelings man.

I think Yohji simply changed brakes settings in the garage (minimum leverage at front, minimum master cylinder at rear).
Hard tires have less grip (so more chances to lock).

MaX.

P.S.

I did a quick check on my bike (cb1000r): couldn't push it as much as I wanted (there were cars on the road), but I didn't lock the rear until very very low speeds (and my rear tire is nowhere near a motogp tire, without talking about the road vs track surface).

Did also a check on one of my cars (a Citroen C4, shame): handbrake (alone) does not lock the rear wheels (I think I was at 60Kmh or close).

MaX.

[Klax75]

I did a quick check on my bike (cb1000r): couldn't push it as much as I wanted (there were cars on the road), but I didn't lock the rear until very very low speeds (and my rear tire is nowhere near a motogp tire, without talking about the road vs track surface).

Did also a check on one of my cars (a Citroen C4, shame): handbrake (alone) does not lock the rear wheels (I think I was at 60Kmh or close).

MaX.

Max are you becoming a stunt driver now... lol

[tseklias]

I did a quick check on my bike (cb1000r): couldn't push it as much as I wanted (there were cars on the road), but I didn't lock the rear until very very low speeds (and my rear tire is nowhere near a motogp tire, without talking about the road vs track surface).

Did also a check on one of my cars (a Citroen C4, shame): handbrake (alone) does not lock the rear wheels (I think I was at 60Kmh or close).

It still seems weird to me that the rear of your cb haven't locked. As for the car the c4 hasn't got a hydraulic handbrake(as most family cars) and if i remember correctly the c4 has seperately rear suspension arms which will also make it harder to lock. Yet if you start your car from 0kmh with the handbrake pulled the rear wheels mustn't start rollling(considering your alone in the car). Theres plenty of videos in youtube where usually women or old men forget the handbrake and drive around with the rear wheels locked.

Now i will try once more to explain to you what i mean. The xbox controller needs let's say 0.5kg pressure to reach 100%, the g25s brake pedal need a pressure of around 8kg(example). If we presume that the front brake of a motorcycle needs also 8kg pressure to reach 100%, it will be moved from the gray position(0kg) to the red position(8kg)
Now if you press so much the front brake imo you will flip over or lock the wheel and lowside or both lock the wheel and flip. Yet i don't think theres a chance you can ever press fully the front brake(except when youre stopped-to test) under any circumstances cause the result won't be good.
Can you understand what i'm talking about now? The brakes' behaviour must be determined of the percentage you apply on brakes and not the feel of pressure it gives you.

I remember there was times while i was racing in rFactor(imo best simulation ever-together with lfs) where i braked at around 35-40% and the wheels locked. I remember exactly racing in nordschleife even on dry with a mid engine car you had to show real skills under braking not to lock the front wheels. Even worse was when trying to brake on downhills. On wet downhills with a mid engine car?!? I think if your cat stepped on the brake it will lock 

Imo we must emphasize a lot on how the brakes function and behave cause i better fight on the brakes than on the throttle. The fight all riders have when they ride it's the braking distance and how effective they are.
Spreading the difference here gives the experienced riders(gpb or real) a cutting edge of difference between them and the not experienced ones. To my example i started racing rFactor when i was a kid with a... keyboard. My first impressions: fake brakes, fake steer, fake wheelspin! As i mature and see 'back' you can imagine what i think...

I believe motogp riders nowadays start at maxing braking of 70-75% and reach gradually 80-85% maximum braking by the end of the race as brakes start to faint. Now if we try to brake with that percentage with our motos on public roads it's not possible, cause ull simply fall. I don't know maybe some different types of tarmacs must be added. Keep in mind that i haven't ever raced on a track despite i have over 10y of experince on public roads you have to admit that the difference must be high.

[HornetMaX]

Car example: hydraulic handbrake or not it doesn't matter a lot. A handbrake on a car (except rally) is not designed to lock the rear and not even to stop a car. It's designed to prevent the car from moving when parked. To me it's really really no  surprise it doesn't lock the rear.

Bike example: you seem to think that the braking force is driven by the amount of movement of the brake lever. Especially for racing bikes, this is not true: it's the pressure. The lever moves very little once the pads are touching the disc: the better your braking system (master cylinder, lines, calipers) the less it will move after contact.

Braking in rFactor: can be due to plenty of things, including the fact that for correct feeling you should use a load cell on your brake pedal (and not a spring and a potentiometer). Same is true for GPB. A presure feedback (like th eone provided by a loadcell) is much better than a position feedback (as the one provided by the triggers or sticks of our joypads).

Next time I can pick up my bike I'll see if I can try more seriuously. What I can already say is that in my underground garage (dusty cement surface) I can lock the rear easily, even a light pressure locks the rear (but at ultra low speed). That's normal, it's due to the surface grip (same thing you see in GPB on the grass). But again, a motogp rear tire is lightyears away from my humble Michelin Pilotwhatever 3...

Anyway, as shown by Yohji, changing stuff in the garage obviously give you more breaking and more chances to lock the wheels / flip the bike.

MaX.

[tseklias]

Car example: hydraulic handbrake or not it doesn't matter a lot. A handbrake on a car (except rally) is not designed to lock the rear and not even to stop a car. It's designed to prevent the car from moving when parked. To me it's really really no  surprise it doesn't lock the rear.

Bike example: you seem to think that the braking force is driven by the amount of movement of the brake lever. Especially for racing bikes, this is not true: it's the pressure. The lever moves very little once the pads are touching the disc: the better your braking system (master cylinder, lines, calipers) the less it will move after contact.

Braking in rFactor: can be due to plenty of things, including the fact that for correct feeling you should use a load cell on your brake pedal (and not a spring and a potentiometer). Same is true for GPB. A presure feedback (like th eone provided by a loadcell) is much better than a position feedback (as the one provided by the triggers or sticks of our joypads).

Next time I can pick up my bike I'll see if I can try more seriuously. What I can already say is that in my underground garage (dusty cement surface) I can lock the rear easily, even a light pressure locks the rear (but at ultra low speed). That's normal, it's due to the surface grip (same thing you see in GPB on the grass). But again, a motogp rear tire is lightyears away from my humble Michelin Pilotwhatever 3...

Anyway, as shown by Yohji, changing stuff in the garage obviously give you more breaking and more chances to lock the wheels / flip the bike.

MaX.

Yes for the car example plus in drift setups also.

And yes partly for the bike example. I know how the brakes in a motorcycle function(i can dissassemble down any motorcycle or car to the very last pieces-as most of my years worked at repair shops) yet i lack motorcycle setup knowledge and electronics as i lack track surface experience. I agree on your example that once the pads touch the discs that's where the breaking starts as also that pressure after that point depends on how good quality your brakes are(the whole chain).
Yet i don't understand how gpb brakes function. I mean when i press my controller at 10% for example is it past the point where the pads touch the discs or is it the whole movement the brake lever is moving? If the first applies here(according to the feel it gives imo the first is atm in use) then adding a dead zone of 20-30% to your front brakes axis must come closer to reality. In reality modern motorcycles have numbers on the brake lever indicating the position theyll stand.

Also Max please can you explain what have Yohji changed in terms of physics. I mean at start i changed these numbers to the maximum thinking that this will move the calipers more on the outter circle of the wheel so i can have a better breaking.

Also thanks to Yohji for his information, yes the breaking now seems more real with these settings.

Yet all this testing has revealed another problem: Breaking on grass fields locks the wheels yet the motorcycle stand upright and going(with the front wheel locked constantly)-this problem has also been witnessed by Napalm's testing.