We should and need to be able to lean bikes when the front wheel is in the air. Currently we cannot do this and it's currently creating big problems when racing.
We have spoken about this before, but since beta 7 release this quirk in the physics seems to have become a lot worse in my opinion, but hopefully the physics changes in the pipeline for the soon to be released beta 8 will solve this problem? :)
Hawk.
I think that this would result in all the wobbles again and I'd say it's ok in the current beta even though it took some time to adapt.
When I compare it to actual MotoGP footage it looks very realistic now (steering a bike only by shifting your weight is pretty hard).
Quote from: vin97 on December 01, 2015, 07:52:18 PM
I think that this would result in all the wobbles again and I'd say it's ok in the current beta even though it took some time to adapt.
When I compare it to actual MotoGP footage it looks very realistic now (steering a bike only by shifting your weight is pretty hard).
This is a sim, right? ;) :)
Hawk.
Can't follow.
QuoteWhen I compare it to actual MotoGP footage it looks very realistic now (steering a bike only by shifting your weight is pretty hard).
@HAwk
Vin is correct on that. ;)
In my opinion it is more realistic than before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWuTcJcqAng&t=46s
Pretty equal to the maximum possible steering in the GP Bikes when the front wheel is in the air.
Not really applicable to our situation vin: in the video, the two wheels were on the ground. When you have the front in the air, it's different. Mostly because you can lean the bike (even on one wheel) and get some camber thrust. But I agree, I don't thin it's a big big issue in GPB at the moment.
I think we can turn a bit with wheel in the air in GPB.. The front wheel even turns to the left or right too now which is nice.. Biggest problem I would say is the violent wheelies still.
Who said anything about counter-steering? I know about counter-steering; Max has taught me well. ;D
I'm talking about turning the bike when the front wheel is in the air..... Take a look at this video which presents my case without any doubts whatsoever:
Watch from 1:38 in the timeline of this video.
https://www.youtube.com/v/48Xk_WrEYw8
I rest my case, my lord. :P
Hawk
PS: I know it's possible because I used to do it myself, and I also remember Barry Sheene demonstrating it while riding around Donington Park. So I know it's possible. ::)
Lol I never said anything about CS.. but it still happens, just has no effect.
So if you lean you put pressure on the bars anyway thats why the front goes left or right.
Honda hairpin at victoria. Exiting that corner the front lifts, front wheel turns left, bike is leaning/turning to the right.
It looks cool! 8)
It is possible Hawk, but on a heavier bike and at higher speed, you can't do what that dude is doing in your video. As BOB said, it happens in GPB.
One (more relevant) example, here at 3m35s:
https://www.youtube.com/v/iRWp9rhfS_0
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on December 01, 2015, 10:35:55 PM
Lol I never said anything about CS.. but it still happens, just has no effect.
So if you lean you put pressure on the bars anyway thats why the front goes left or right.
Honda hairpin at victoria. Exiting that corner the front lifts, front wheel turns left, bike is leaning/turning to the right.
It looks cool! 8)
No Bob. Lol.
My post was for those who seem to think it's not possible to lean and turn with your front wheel in the air. :)
Mind you, if you do it and come down with your front wheel out of line you better make sure you have a good steering damper. Hehe! ;D
Hawk
@Max: I saw your video on Youtube, but I thought I needed a more obvious representation of the physics involved in leaning and turning while the front wheel is in the air to get my point over, though be it at a slower pace. ;)
The point is that it is do-able, even at high speed, and therefore the capability for this should be in GPB. We shouldn't have to wait for the front wheel to ground before we are able to take a corner in GPB, it's ridiculous. This issue is definitely worse in Beta 7 than it ever was in beta 6c in my opinion. :)
Hawk.
Oh man im confused lol.
But 100% yes a damper will help alot in that situation! Although what tends to happen is the bars straighten up before you touch down again..
Have we been here before ?? Lol ;D
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on December 01, 2015, 10:35:55 PM
Lol I never said anything about CS.. but it still happens, just has no effect.
So if you lean you put pressure on the bars anyway thats why the front goes left or right.
Honda hairpin at victoria. Exiting that corner the front lifts, front wheel turns left, bike is leaning/turning to the right.
It looks cool! 8)
Any chance of a video of you doing this in GPB(or a replay file)? Because I have not yet been able to turn the bike into a bend with my front wheel off the ground, it just carries on straight until front wheel comes down. :)
Hawk.
Im still a bit confused here to be honest hawk but I will give it a try in the morning when I get home and post a little video and see if its what you mean ;) ;D
Just give it a try though at victoria! You will pull it off sooner or later ;)
To ride around on the back wheel taking corners at low speed etc is pretty much impossible in GPB at the moment (unless your name is Grimm! Lol)
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on December 02, 2015, 12:50:12 AM
Im still a bit confused here to be honest hawk but I will give it a try in the morning when I get home and post a little video and see if its what you mean ;) ;D
Just give it a try though at victoria! You will pull it off sooner or later ;)
To ride around on the back wheel taking corners at low speed etc is pretty much impossible in GPB at the moment (unless your name is Grimm! Lol)
;D I saw this thread and thought to myself, has Hawk seen the video(s) I have posted elsewhere? lol
GP Bikes wheelies I put together in a compilation:
https://www.youtube.com/v/Reb11I0IZnM
Bunch of corner wheelies with DST on with Klax settings. Pretty epic smooth wheelies:
https://www.youtube.com/v/gQ_A8bAT22E
Here is my take on it, (in short, GP Bikes is spot on).
When I started street riding 13 years ago (I was an old bugger to be moving from dirt to street) I rode classic bikes for a bit, never knowing what turning a wheelie felt like, eventually got a naked Bandit 1200, and the wheelies began with a steep learning curve, I was old and broken from BMX riding, offroading didn't involve sustained wheelies at 55mph either! It was a new world! As I progressed into a total hooligan I found that turning a wheelie involved the front tire being VERY high up. You could initiate a little floater at lean angle or slightly into a lean one direction or another and keep that curve going on the smaller part/side of the tire and given a perfect world you could maintain it for quite some distance and with a little body english bring it back to upright and ride it down an entire strait away (MotoGP, WSBK, etc. do this quite often on victory wheelies), I've personally done the same thing many, many times.
To truly turn a wheelie where you want it to go takes a massive change in body weight placement on the bike while it is near or at the "balance point". GP Bikes similates these requirements rather well, if you could get more "body english" into the simulation I am sure you could lean the bike a bit more, but giving DST with the Klax settings a go, you may find that the behavior that you are seeking from the bike on a wheelie is far more prevalent when you have full control of the bike. Pretty sure the front end has a gyro effect on GP Bikes, if it doesn't this is one hell of a simulation! With DST, you can use the front wheel gyro to bring the bike into and out of lean angle on a wheelie.
Heres a 30 second standup on the Bandit (4th one now, love these things!), it moved around quite a bit, alot of correction to keep it moving strait down the road. Takes getting it up as high as GP Bikes to get this sort of manipulation in a wheelie. 8) (If you can't tell, I'm wheelie obsessed)
https://www.youtube.com/v/ewWTSdQLbMU
Quote from: grimm on December 02, 2015, 02:55:14 AM
Pretty sure the front end has a gyro effect on GP Bikes
It has it, probably from the very first alpha.
Quote from: grimm on December 02, 2015, 02:55:14 AM
With DST, you can use the front wheel gyro to bring the bike into and out of lean angle on a wheelie.
I'm not sure you absolutely need DST to do that. In older betas when wheeling the front was kept straight, preventing you from using the steering to control the lean in a wheelie, but this is no longer the case so I'd say that you can do it even without DST. Someone with decent wheeling ability (in-game) could confirm that. Grimm ? :)
Quote from: Hawk on December 01, 2015, 10:55:13 PM
The point is that it is do-able, even at high speed, and therefore the capability for this should be in GPB. We shouldn't have to wait for the front wheel to ground before we are able to take a corner in GPB, it's ridiculous.
Control while leaning is there in GPB. It's not huge, but even in reality it's not huge. What you see in the TT video is doable in GPB.
Can you show us a video of something real that it's not possible in GPB ?
Thanks for the video's Grimm. Very interesting to watch those.... Very nice video's mate! ;D
So as I understand what your saying is that wheelie-steer is possible only if you use DST? Seeing your video's and that sort of control really makes me want to ride only with DST.... I'll have to get practicing! ;D 8)
@Max: If wheelie-steer is possible in GPB(Standard controls), it is so subtle it needs whatever setting it is that causes it to be increased because in my experience any time the front wheel leaves the ground(if only by a few inches) the steering lean capabilities feel like they freeze and the bike just continues going in a straight line. This is particularly noticeable at Victoria on the straight between corners 2 and 3: there's a small dip in that straight where the front lifts just before your want to start leaning into the 3rd corner and it screws up you entry into the corner because you miss your entry point.
I have not tried wheelie-steer at very low speeds, something I'll have to try out as soon as possible. But if low speed is possible then obviously Piboso has that capability progressively turning down as the speed picks up - If this is so, then I think it's being turned down too much.... probably in an effort to try and avoid a virtual rider issue of not being able to bring the front wheel down in a straight line and causing a tank-slapping crash? That was just a thought. :)
But if DST will allow full control even at higher speeds then I'm really keen to learn riding with DST now...... Wish me luck! Hehe. ;D 8) 8)
Thanks for your interest in this subject.... I think it's an important one that needs getting right, and not one that an accepted workaround will make do(Workarounds are such spoilers of simulations).
@Max and Bob: I'll try to get a replay file link so that you can fully understand what the issue is. ;)
Sorry for any confusions.... Sometimes I have so many thoughts going through my head that what I want to say doesn't always come out as I wanted to express them..... But as they say: "I can understand what I'm saying!" Hehe! ;D
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk on December 02, 2015, 11:28:43 AM
@Max: If wheelie-steer is possible in GPB(Standard controls), it is so subtle it needs whatever setting it is that causes it to be increased because in my experience any time the front wheel leaves the ground(if only by a few inches) the steering lean capabilities feel like they freeze and the bike just continues going in a straight line. This is particularly noticeable at Victoria on the straight between corners 2 and 3: there's a small dip in that straight where the front lifts just before your want to start leaning into the 3rd corner and it screws up you entry into the corner because you miss your entry point.
I know the spot Hawk. But there you're at +200Kmh going straight (bike not leaning), the front comes up thanks to the bump (slightly up, it's not a full blown wheelie): I don't think that in reality you would be able to lean the bike for the coming turn in these conditions without putting the front down first.
There may be something in the sense that as the virtual rider re-aligns the steering before the front touches down again (to avoid wobble), if the wheelie is small (front just off the track) you may have no control on the steering (at least not until the wheelie gets bigger). But for your specific bump at Victoria I guess we only have to find the right trajectory and bike setup to sort of avoid it (plus, of course, close the throttle a bit).
At Victoria I find the main straight (start/finish line) more annoying: exiting the last corner there's a bump that sends you into orbit. But even if you survive that, you're on the right part of the track, full throttle and willing to move left and it's surprisingly difficult to do so because the bike is slightly wheeling.
Maybe we should ask PiBoSo to (be able to) disable the "steering auto re-align in case of wheelie" thing and let the responsibility of that to the player. Don't know if that would be OK or too difficult to handle ...
Quote from: HornetMaX on December 02, 2015, 11:43:29 AM
Quote from: Hawk on December 02, 2015, 11:28:43 AM
@Max: If wheelie-steer is possible in GPB(Standard controls), it is so subtle it needs whatever setting it is that causes it to be increased because in my experience any time the front wheel leaves the ground(if only by a few inches) the steering lean capabilities feel like they freeze and the bike just continues going in a straight line. This is particularly noticeable at Victoria on the straight between corners 2 and 3: there's a small dip in that straight where the front lifts just before your want to start leaning into the 3rd corner and it screws up you entry into the corner because you miss your entry point.
I know the spot Hawk. But there you're at +200Kmh going straight (bike not leaning), the front comes up thanks to the bump (slightly up, it's not a full blown wheelie): I don't think that in reality you would be able to lean the bike for the coming turn in these conditions without putting the front down first.
There may be something in the sense that as the virtual rider re-aligns the steering before the front touches down again (to avoid wobble), if the wheelie is small (front just off the track) you may have no control on the steering (at least not until the wheelie gets bigger). But for your specific bump at Victoria I guess we only have to find the right trajectory and bike setup to sort of avoid it (plus, of course, close the throttle a bit).
At Victoria I find the main straight (start/finish line) more annoying: exiting the last corner there's a bump that sends you into orbit. But even if you survive that, you're on the right part of the track, full throttle and willing to move left and it's surprisingly difficult to do so because the bike is slightly wheeling.
Maybe we should ask PiBoSo to (be able to) disable the "steering auto re-align in case of wheelie" thing and let the responsibility of that to the player. Don't know if that would be OK or too difficult to handle ...
I hear what your saying there Max, but I just hate having to workaround a problem that really shouldn't be there to such a big effect. I mean if the same effect had happened on my racing bike(many years ago. Lol) then I would probably be a permanent fixture in the Armco barriers. Lol.
I also wholeheartedly agree that the re-alignment of the front wheel should be in the control of the player rather than being auto, this would save(I'm sure) issues like this I'd hope...... Would be great to be able to test this idea out to see if it's workable in GPB's current stage of development? ;D
I'm going to test with DST as soon as I get time to see how much of this sort of control we have. ;)
Go on Piboso.... Please give us a test bike with this implemented so we can see what it would be like to ride. ;D 8)
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk on December 02, 2015, 01:24:43 PM
I also wholeheartedly agree that the re-alignment of the front wheel should be in the control of the player rather than being auto, this would save(I'm sure) issues like this I'd hope...... Would be great to be able to test this idea out to see if it's workable in GPB's current stage of development? ;D
The problem is that unless you're using DST/DSA, you're not controlling the steering with the stick, but the target lean angle. How do you tell the virtual rider to "center the steering" ? Unclear to me.
Maybe its just a matter of tuning of the "re-alignement" stuff in order to make it a bit more permissive (even at the risk of increased crash chances when lading a wheelie in the wrong manner).
Quote from: HornetMaX on December 02, 2015, 02:07:50 PM
Quote from: Hawk on December 02, 2015, 01:24:43 PM
I also wholeheartedly agree that the re-alignment of the front wheel should be in the control of the player rather than being auto, this would save(I'm sure) issues like this I'd hope...... Would be great to be able to test this idea out to see if it's workable in GPB's current stage of development? ;D
The problem is that unless you're using DST/DSA, you're not controlling the steering with the stick, but the target lean angle. How do you tell the virtual rider to "center the steering" ? Unclear to me.
Maybe its just a matter of tuning of the "re-alignement" stuff in order to make it a bit more permissive (even at the risk of increased crash chances when lading a wheelie in the wrong manner).
There must be some logical steps that will permit this action of the Virtual rider being able to centre the steering as the front wheel comes down to the ground?
Maybe work it off the speed the front wheel is either falling to the ground or accelerating upwards? So if the front wheel is falling to the ground at a rate that it will definitely touch the track then V/rider centres steering at ##inches from the ground? Likewise, if the wheel is above a certain distance from the track and accelerating upwards or downwards at a certain defining factor then the virtual rider is free to use the gyro forces in the front wheel and other means to turn the bike?
Hope you understood my logic? Lol ;)
Hawk.
I saved some video from the latest beta, just messing around last night after replying to the thread, no DST, just good old wheelies trying to turn them. I'll trim the fat off the footage and upload it this afternoon and post it up. There is situations you can turn the bike, and others that it flat out refuses to comply. Seems that the height of the wheelie really dictates the amount of turning you can do, throttle input plays a huge part as well.
Ah, I thought Hawk was more talking about the front wheel being very light and not about wheelies.
In that case, the situation is very similar to when you are trying to steer a bike with your weight alone and in that way GP Bikes is very realistic.
Now, when it comes to actual wheelies in GP Bikes, steering is only possible if the front is indeed very high up but when using manual rider lean you can steer the bike.
The reason why it may look unrealistic (not enough steering) may be because we forget how fast the bike is actually going in the game.
If you practice wheelies constantly in first gear (at 50 to 60 km/h max) in GP Bikes I am sure you will be able to steer the bike pretty well.
Steering a wheelie like in the Stunt video Hawk posted is maybe possible at those low speeds, with very light bikes and a short wheelbase.
For a MotoGP bike at anything above let's say 70 or 80 km/h, it's different.
Oh, and if you lock your front wheel once it is in the air with the brake, you can also control it completely independently of any bike behaviour in the game (even when you are not using DST).
Quote from: grimm on December 02, 2015, 05:25:59 PM
I saved some video from the latest beta, just messing around last night after replying to the thread, no DST, just good old wheelies trying to turn them. I'll trim the fat off the footage and upload it this afternoon and post it up. There is situations you can turn the bike, and others that it flat out refuses to comply. Seems that the height of the wheelie really dictates the amount of turning you can do, throttle input plays a huge part as well.
Thanks Grimm... I look forward to watching them mate! ;D 8)
Hawk
Quote from: vin97 on December 02, 2015, 06:18:17 PM
Ah, I thought Hawk was more talking about the front wheel being very light and not about wheelies.
In that case, the situation is very similar to when you are trying to steer a bike with your weight alone and in that way GP Bikes is very realistic.
Now, when it comes to actual wheelies in GP Bikes, steering is only possible if the front is indeed very high up but when using manual rider lean you can steer the bike.
The reason why it may look unrealistic (not enough steering) may be because we forget how fast the bike is actually going in the game.
If you practice wheelies constantly in first gear (at 50 to 60 km/h max) in GP Bikes I am sure you will be able to steer the bike pretty well.
Steering a wheelie like in the Stunt video Hawk posted is maybe possible at those low speeds, with very light bikes and a short wheelbase.
For a MotoGP bike at anything above let's say 70 or 80 km/h, it's different.
Oh, and if you lock your front wheel once it is in the air with the brake, you can also control it completely independently of any bike behaviour in the game (even when you are not using DST).
No probs mate.... Misunderstandings happen. ;) 8)
I'll certainly be doing some testing on this as soon as I can...... Locking the front wheel with my front brake is going to be kinda hard seeing as my front brake is on my throttle axis. Hehe! ;D
I'll have to have a look at changing some of my controls axis's, especially as I want to practice with DST too. ;)
I appreciate it would be harder to turn at higher speeds, but in real life it certainly isn't like GPB were once the front wheel comes off the ground the steering or lean just freezes totally until the front wheel hits the deck again. Racing bikes are light in comparison to road bikes, right? :)
But anyway I'll do some testing as soon as I can...... Locking the front wheel with the front brake...... This is interesting stuff... I feel the need for tests! ;D
BTW.... Can anyone publish a good setting for DST(the .ini code)? I lost the one Klax gave me when I had to do a re-install. Thanks. ;)
Thanks Vin. ;)
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk on December 02, 2015, 08:05:27 PMLocking the front wheel with my front brake is going to be kinda hard seeing as my front brake is on my throttle axis. Hehe! ;D
I'll have to have a look at changing some of my controls axis's, especially as I want to practice with DST too. ;)
Oh, well then you'll also be able to revmatch :D
Quote from: Hawk on December 02, 2015, 08:05:27 PMbut in real life it certainly isn't like GPB were once the front wheel comes off the ground the steering or lean just freezes totally until the front wheel hits the deck again. Racing bikes are light in comparison to road bikes, right? :)
But it isn't like that in GP Bikes.
http://www.youtube.com/v/raHfN71Go5w
I started the wheelie at 45 km/h and ended it at 115 km/h.
Any more steering would be totally unrealistic IMO.
Quote from: Hawk on December 02, 2015, 08:05:27 PMRacing bikes are light in comparison to road bikes, right? :)
I was talking about the enduro bikes.
@Vin.... Very nice! But was that with manual rider(I'm presuming so)? I have not tried it with manual rider. So try with auto rider.... and let me know here if it works same or not. ;)
Thanks mate. ;)
Hawk.
I am manually leaning the rider, which is the only way you can steer a bike when the front wheel is in the air.
As I said, I could control the front wheel with the bike steering axis if I locked it first with the brake.
Other than that this axis has no effect on the bike when the front has no contact.
This I find a little strange but not dramatic because you should be able to control the front wheel even when it's still spinning.
Quote from: vin97 on December 02, 2015, 09:41:33 PM
I am manually leaning the rider, which is the only way you can steer a bike when the front wheel is in the air.
As I said, I could control the front wheel with the bike steering axis if I locked it first with the brake.
Other than that this axis has no effect on the bike when the front has no contact.
This I find a little strange but not dramatic because you should be able to control the front wheel even when it's still spinning.
No wonder some are saying GPB is realistic in turning while in a wheelie! I wish Piboso would tell us about these little quirks. Lol ::)
Maybe it's the spinning wheel that Piboso has set it to? Maybe you only need to pull the front brake on till you stop the wheel and then you could release the brake and still turn? Maybe worth a test Vin? :D
Hawk.
Yes, you only need to brake until the front wheel has stopped spinning.
You should even be able to keep the wheelie up if you got throttle and brake on the same axis.
A few ms of front brake are enough to stop it.
Ah I see.. I always thought it was pretty realistic to be honest though.. Biggest problem is the front end lifting in the first place.. Too light! That corner at victoria where the front lifts as you want to turn in (turn 3) you should short shift or roll off the throttle. If you turned in at that speed with the wheel airborn in real life I think it would be dangerous. ;D
At my local track I have a similar thing.. Right hand hairpin very tight.. As soon as you exit, the track kinks to the left onto a long straight.. Just before you take the left kink the engine revs are at the point where the bike wants to wheelie, so usually the kink is taken with the wheel in the air! which sends me straight on towards the edge of the track down the straight.
Trick is to crank the bike over as early as possible.. As the revs shoot up with the slight lean angle, you pretty much ''spin up'' through the kink instead of the front lifting.. All depends on the exit of the hairpin though.. Too wide and the wheelie is pretty much guaranteed..
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on December 02, 2015, 11:38:47 PM
Ah I see.. I always thought it was pretty realistic to be honest though.. Biggest problem is the front end lifting in the first place.. Too light! That corner at victoria where the front lifts as you want to turn in (turn 3) you should short shift or roll off the throttle. If you turned in at that speed with the wheel airborn in real life I think it would be dangerous. ;D
At my local track I have a similar thing.. Right hand hairpin very tight.. As soon as you exit, the track kinks to the left onto a long straight.. Just before you take the left kink the engine revs are at the point where the bike wants to wheelie, so usually the kink is taken with the wheel in the air! which sends me straight on towards the edge of the track down the straight.
Trick is to crank the bike over as early as possible.. As the revs shoot up with the slight lean angle, you pretty much ''spin up'' through the kink instead of the front lifting.. All depends on the exit of the hairpin though.. Too wide and the wheelie is pretty much guaranteed..
Totally agree with you Bob about the front end being too light.....
What I usually do is lift the throttle for a split sec at that point to avoid the dreaded frozen lean effect when the front wheel lifts and ending up, as you say, heading towards the edge of the track. Hehe. But apparently that only happens with the auto rider, so as good a reason as any to convert to manual rider too I think. ;D
But yeah interesting technique your suggesting there mate; I will definitely give it a try and see how I go.....
Thanks Bob! ;)
Hawk.
I think the bump before turn 3 at Victoria is already too fast to properly steer the bike into the corner when it's doing a wheelie (at least if you still want to hit the apex :D).
As Bob suggested, start tipping the bike into the corner just before the front would get airborne and use the 'understeer' (light front wheel, only very little steering possible) to not hit the grass instead of the apex.
Quote from: vin97 on December 02, 2015, 09:41:33 PM
I am manually leaning the rider, which is the only way you can steer a bike when the front wheel is in the air.
That's not entirely true, because of the gyroscopic effect that takes place when you steer the spinning front wheel in the air.
Quote from: vin97 on December 02, 2015, 09:41:33 PM
As I said, I could control the front wheel with the bike steering axis if I locked it first with the brake.
Other than that this axis has no effect on the bike when the front has no contact.
This I find a little strange but not dramatic because you should be able to control the front wheel even when it's still spinning.
Hmm it's not what I see. While wheeling I can control the front wheel while wheeling even without using the brake. Of course it's "reversed" (stick left = steer right), but that's essentially OK.
The effect on the bike lean may not be big (or not as big as what you get leaning the rider).
Again, to me it seems that if the front is just s bit off the ground, then yes you can't control it. But if it's well off, then you can.
Quote from: HornetMaX on December 03, 2015, 07:41:45 AMHmm it's not what I see. While wheeling I can control the front wheel while wheeling even without using the brake. Of course it's "reversed" (stick left = steer right), but that's essentially OK.
I would really like to see a video of that. Because when I try to steer the front wheel in a wheelie without locking it first, it does not really work. The rider will sometimes steer for a split second but that only happens randomly or when the bike is dropping very fast. Keeping the front wheel not aligned for multiple seconds is not possible for me without stopping it.
I don't think Hawk is interested in the tiny gyro effect the front wheel has in steering the bike in a wheelie.
Default settings (no DST), auto rider left/right lean, no front brake, just good old wheelies trying to get them to turn (at an extreme compared to a racing situation)
https://www.youtube.com/v/w_aAB0dXTFc
I am using the default 600 mapping leaving the pits, other clips are an engine map I made that resembles the "cripple triple" setup on a GSXR600. (Disabling a cylinder for less power)
@Vin: I am interested in the gyro effect of the front wheel too when in a wheelie because that has an effect in real life too. It does help steer when in a wheelie does it not? ;)
@Grimm: Are you using Beta 7b? The 600 bikes are not updated yet for Beta 7, are they? Or have I misunderstood?
Nice video by the way, but the bike does seem to be only steering at a high wheelie angle..... What about being able to steer the bike when the front wheel is say only about a foot off the ground?
Hawk.
So what is the conclusion?
Personally I think its fine how it is in GPB.. (apart from needing more weight on the front end, if it is that simple..probably not lol)
Only thing PiBoSo could change is proper control over the front wheel when it's spinning in the air instead of often centering itself again.
Maybe this will cause problems when accelerating out of corners because the misaligned wheel and/or the possibly 'confused' virtual rider (in the moment the front touches the ground again) might send the bike into a wobble.
This could be PiBoSo's reason for not giving us full front wheel control.
@Hawk: It's by far not the amount of steering you are looking for.
So the conclusion is that the steering/lean of the bike needs working on to make it realistic when the front wheel lifts lightly or moderately off the ground.
However, when the front wheel is very high off the ground the bike seems to react as expected in real life.....
So the conclusion is as far as I understand it from these tests above is: We have a sort of steering/lean gap(meaning unable to steer/lean) when the front wheel lifts(lightly to moderate height) off the ground at this time that needs sorting.
Not had the chance to test in DST yet.... Will do as soon as possible. ;)
Any other conclusions are welcome guys. ;)
Hawk.
Hahaha fair enough. I disagree but won't push it any further :)
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on December 04, 2015, 01:23:46 AM
Hahaha fair enough. I disagree but won't push it any further :)
+1 :D
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on December 04, 2015, 01:23:46 AM
Hahaha fair enough. I disagree but won't push it any further :)
Quote from: vin97 on December 04, 2015, 01:30:38 AM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on December 04, 2015, 01:23:46 AM
Hahaha fair enough. I disagree but won't push it any further :)
+1 :D
If you disagree guys, then show us some evidence of wheelie steering/leaning when the front end is only just off the ground with auto rider control.... I'm open to change my mind if I've come to the wrong conclusions. Always open for that. ;D
If it doesn't work with auto-rider control then it needs work to sort it out, right? That is all I'm saying here.
We've already found by the evidence here that steering with wheelie is possible with DST or manual rider control, though I'd still like to see that happen when the front wheel is only lightly off the ground to be certain. ;)
I'll be testing further when I have the chance.... This case is not closed yet. Lol ;D
Hawk.
Here is a replay file showing that you cannot steer/lean using auto rider while front wheel is only moderately up in the air. If you also notice that when the front wheel gets to a certain height it will start to steer with the handlebars, but up to that point I am on full right lean with my controller with no input showing via handlebar torque whatsoever(I had handlebar torque meter showing in debug mode). So that to me is evidence that no steering inputs are being fed to the handlebars when in a moderate(normal) wheelie situation. I'm sure this is why the steering/lean freezes in a normal wheelie situation too? :-\
But what I cannot figure out is why when the wheel gets to a certain height do the handlebar inputs start again??? Doesn't make sense to me.? :-\
Replay Evidence: https://mega.nz/#!iBlj0KSS!1MFJuEvMezslybetsFPqtuBNCIdLtos0bmWx5swOkuw (https://mega.nz/#!iBlj0KSS!1MFJuEvMezslybetsFPqtuBNCIdLtos0bmWx5swOkuw)
Remember I said there was no handlebar torque input showing via debug mode during this test when in a normal wheelie situation. ;)
I'll have to make a video showing the debug data at some stage.... Just haven't got the time right now. :(
Hawk.
One of the best examples iv seen is from jamoZ ''how to overtake stout'' video hahaha
Other than that, im not out to prove anybody wrong.. I just think turning/leaning when the front is slightly off the ground is limited because usually its under hard acceleration.. To me it seems about right in GPB.
;D 8)
http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1412.0
You were going too fast and didn't keep the front high enough.
Getting any significant steering in such a short amount of time with a still unstable bike and the center of gravity being so far ahead of the rear wheel is simply not possible.
It has nothing to do with the auto rider (the only difference manual rider control makes in our situation is that you can lean the rider independently of where you steer the front wheel when it's in the air and locked).
I'd tend to agree with BOB and vin97: at decent speed with the front just a bit off the ground and with auto-rider lean, what GPB does seems OK. if you want more control, you'll have to go manual lean (and even that may not steer the bike that much).
However I'd be less categorical on the fact that there's nothing to be improved. I'm still not 100% sure under which conditions we're or we are not allowed to steer the bars while wheeling: is it above a certain wheeling angle ? And when exactly does the "auto-align" thing kick in ? Only when the front is going down and is below a given angle ? The experiment with the "auto-align" thingy off would be interesting, but if Piboso tells us that the auto-align is needed, I can trust him.
Finally, as BOB said, we wouldn't even be talking about this if the front was not so willing to go up at the smallest bump on the track and/or under modest thrust.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on December 04, 2015, 02:51:37 AM
One of the best examples iv seen is from jamoZ ''how to overtake stout'' video hahaha
Other than that, im not out to prove anybody wrong.. I just think turning/leaning when the front is slightly off the ground is limited because usually its under hard acceleration.. To me it seems about right in GPB.
;D 8)
http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1412.0
That was beta 6 Bob, yes?
Beta 6 wasn't bad at all for this issue, but for some reason in beta 7 it's back to what I was experiencing in beta 5 I think it was. So although it was a great video, that particular example is unfortunately irrelevant to this case. :)
Hawk.
PS:
You enjoy posting your riding video's Bob..... Show me some examples of yourself doing these manoeuvres in beta 7 while front wheel is in the air. I really want to be convinced. Lol ;D
Okay, okay.... Lol. I will continue my search and testing of this as soon as I can because I'm convinced something is not right about this issue in beta 7. This issue was definitely better in beta 6. Take a look at Jamoz's video that Bob has posted above and try to do the same in beta 7 and I bet you cannot. ;)
I just find it a very strange thing that in debug mode you can see there is no handlebar torque inputs from auto rider until the front wheel gets to a certain height?? Surely that is not right?
I'll have to test with manual rider and also with DST in debug mode and see the differences; from what has been said in this thread, there is definitely a big difference when using DST and when using manual rider control.
The debate continues. ;D
Hawk
PS: The replay I posted was a very quick test. I haven't got the time at the moment to fully demonstrate in video the issues I'm talking about at differing speeds and front wheel wheelie heights in differing places on tracks, but I will do it as soon as I have some decent amount of spare time. ;)
Quote from: Hawk on December 04, 2015, 10:57:46 AM
I just find it a very strange thing that in debug mode you can see there is no handlebar torque inputs from auto rider until the front wheel gets to a certain height?? Surely that is not right?
This could be the "auto-align" thing: as the wheelie is too small, GPB keeps the front aligned in case it lands soon.
Quote from: Hawk on December 04, 2015, 10:57:46 AM
I'll have to test with manual rider and also with DST in debug mode and see the differences; from what has been said in this thread, there is definitely a big difference when using DST and when using manual rider control.
No need to test with DST: as you're directly controlling the steering with DST/DSA, GPB will do whatever you tell him to do with your input.
Quote from: HornetMaX on December 04, 2015, 11:04:37 AM
Quote from: Hawk on December 04, 2015, 10:57:46 AM
I just find it a very strange thing that in debug mode you can see there is no handlebar torque inputs from auto rider until the front wheel gets to a certain height?? Surely that is not right?
This could be the "auto-align" thing: as the wheelie is too small, GPB keeps the front aligned in case it lands soon.
Quote from: Hawk on December 04, 2015, 10:57:46 AM
I'll have to test with manual rider and also with DST in debug mode and see the differences; from what has been said in this thread, there is definitely a big difference when using DST and when using manual rider control.
No need to test with DST: as you're directly controlling the steering with DST/DSA, GPB will do whatever you tell him to do with your input.
Then surely it must be agreed that the auto-rider control does need more work to allow more control during a wheelie? Unless everyone here except myself is happy to put up with it not being perfect? But why say it works fine as it is when it obviously does not..... I just don't understand you guys sometimes.... I mean don't you all want auto-rider bike control to work properly?
As I've said, I haven't tried it with DST as yet so I can only,
and do, trust that it does allow full control during any amount of front wheel off the ground wheelie event. But surely the auto rider should, if not now, eventually be developed further to react in a proper way during wheelie events? That's what I'd like to see....... Perfection is surely the goal to make GPB stand out head and shoulders above the rest. I just hate making do when it could be better. ;D
I'll still be testing with DST or DSA(Whichever is better) just out of curiosity and the fact that if it allows better control then that is what I want in GPB. ;)
Hawk.
PS: Where's Klax the DST man these days? Anyone heard from him lately?
Quote from: Hawk on December 04, 2015, 04:41:16 PM
Then surely it must be agreed that the auto-rider control does need more work to allow more control during a wheelie? Unless everyone here except myself is happy to put up with it not being perfect? But why say it works fine as it is when it obviously does not..... I just don't understand you guys sometimes.... I mean don't you all want auto-rider bike control to work properly?
You forget that in GPB (with no DST/DSA) you don't control the steering: you control the lean angle.
You seem to want something that says "If the front is on the track, my stick input controls the lean. If the front is up in the air, I want to control the steering".
As it is right now it's essentially OK, especially if that bloody front was not that light in many occasion.
But as I said, I'd be glad to have the otpion to switch the auto-align off: I just don't expect it to allow me to change the direction of the bike in the 1st part of the victoria straight. At 230+ Kmh with the front a few cm off the ground, I'm not sure steering left/right will do a lot.
First of all, Hawk, you are constantly switching between light frontwheel (center of gravity well ahead of the rear wheel) and actual wheelies which makes this discussion unnecessarily confusing.
I thought we finally agreed on the light frontwheel situation because physically it is very similar to steering a bike with only your weight (as shown in the video I posted) and if you look at MotoGP, you'll see that it's hard work for the riders to steer the bike when it's under hard acceleration (they use the full width of the straights because of the understeering front).
Just did a few tests with the automatically leaning rider and you have the same control over wheelies you have when using manual rider lean.
Actually, the control over the front wheel is much improved and the auto-align (that seems to happen when the bike is dropping faster than a specific value) is much less present (if you keep the wheelie smooth it shouldn't happen at all).
Again, if you want full control over the front wheel for the complete wheelie, you'll need to lock it first but be careful when dropping it again.
For me GP Bikes is not a stunt game, so if I have to tap the brake to enable 'stunt mode' it's ok.
I think you are the only one who wants to have more realistic stunt controls instead of ensuring the bike will remain stable when riding normally.
Quote from: vin97 on December 04, 2015, 06:26:46 PM
Again, if you want full control over the front wheel for the complete wheelie, you'll need to lock it first but be careful when dropping it again.
But that is something weird (if not a bug): why are we able to control it if it is locked and not if it is spinning ? It doesn't make much sense.
Because then we would probably crash at every high speed corner bump.
I've always thought the actual definition of a "Wheelie" is when the front wheel leaves the ground, is it not? :)
But anyway, personally I'm not into stunt riding so I don't know were you've got that impression from Vin? Maybe from some of the videos shown here to demonstrate the bike reaction while in a wheelie? They are only for demonstration purposes to make sure we all can see the bikes reactions to steering or leaning while in a wheelie event and nothing more. ;)
Leaning, steering.... I know there is a difference, but this subject is confusing by nature because sometimes we are talking about steering and other times we are talking about leaning, hence I often write "Lean/steer" to cover both. Lol
The subject of the discussion is clearly stated in the title: "Unable To Lean Bikes When Front Wheel In The Air...." At no point have I said anything about stunt wheelies in particular or inferred that we are only talking about stunt wheelies. ::)
If the bike physics is working right for front wheel in the air events(wheelies for those that might get confused. ;D), then surely if the bike physics are working correct they should work correct whether the wheelie is a high one or a low one........ Then I have to ask, if that is so(which some of you seem to think it is) then why is there no handlebar torque inputs shown on the debug info screen from the virtual rider while in a wheelie when the user is trying to "Lean"?
But anyway guys.... Let me do some serious testing first and get back into this debate with some serious evidence.... Trouble is I'm very busy now till after Christmas, so don't expect any sense from me till New Year. Lol :P ;D
Hawk.
Quote from: Hawk on December 04, 2015, 09:07:04 PMIf the bike physics is working right for front wheel in the air events(wheelies for those that might get confused. ;D), then surely if the bike physics are working correct they should work correct whether the wheelie is a high one or a low one........ Then I have to ask, if that is so(which some of you seem to think it is) then why is there no handlebar torque inputs shown on the debug info screen from the virtual rider while in a wheelie when the user is trying to "Lean"?
The physics is the same
and it is correctly simulated in GP Bikes (any more steering of the bike in any situation where the front wheel is off the ground would be unrealistic).
But they are two very different situations for the virtual rider because it has to decide for you what you want to control (lean angle of the bike or the front wheel).
If it would decide that you want to control the front wheel as soon as the wheel is a cm above the ground, every time your bike lifts shortly in a corner, the front wheel would be instantly misaligned (because your input device is going to one side at that moment) and it would most probably make the bike crash when the front touches the ground again.
That's why the virtual rider waits before it switches from lean angle control (which, at that point, is only done by the (automatically) leaning rider) to front wheel control.
You can only get around this issue by using the DST to disable the virtual rider. Then, you bypass this issue completely because the front wheel will
not instantly get misaligend since you (optimally) have no steering input mid-corner.
A 'wheelie-control' that keeps the bike at a specific wheelie angle would be nice to test all this further.
Anyway, if you just keep the bike a little bit higher than you did in your short test video, you'll see that the virtual rider will begin to steer the front wheel and, in your case (automatic rider lean), it will keep doing that for quite a long time (unless you let the bike fall too fast, even if it's still doing a wheelie).
Quote from: vin97 on December 04, 2015, 08:19:19 PM
Because then we would probably crash at every high speed corner bump.
That's far from sure, it would depend on what the virtual rider does exactly in these situations.
With DST/DSA do you crash at every high speed corner bump ? Answer no. And there's no auto-align.
Quote from: vin97 on December 04, 2015, 09:32:31 PM
Anyway, if you just keep the bike a little bit higher than you did in your short test video, you'll see that the virtual rider will begin to steer the front wheel and, in your case (automatic rider lean), it will keep doing that for quite a long time (unless you let the bike fall too fast, even if it's still doing a wheelie).
Vin, I don't want to pull wheelies for pulling wheelie sake, I want to race not showboat. Lol. ;D
What I want is for my lean control
NOT to totally freeze just because the front wheel comes off the ground, even by an inch. To me that is ridiculous and not realistic. This is something that definitely became a lot worse for beta 7; It's now like it was in beta 5.... Not good.
Hawk.
@Max: Exactly. What he cannot do, is switch to front wheel control instantly and let the front tuck in/out.
As I said, with the DST this discussion is irrelevant because you don't have constant (steering) input.
@Hawk: Just imagine the opposite then: The bike begins to tip further into the corner as soon as the front wheel is in the air (standing/'steering' the bike up with the front in the air out of corners already works perfectly, I can give you many demonstrations of those situations). This would make the bike lowside over the smallest bumps in fast corners.
IMO the wheelie control has gotten a lot more realistic in beta7 because now you really feel how much the rider has to pull the bike in order to flip it over to the other side and once again, just compare to some actual MotoGP footage.
In the previous beta you could steer the bike anyway (even if it would be impossible in reality) which led to all the wobbles on the straights. You had to be very careful when moving the bike from one side to the other on a straight in beta6 to not get the wobble and lose time.
Now you can finally use the throttle to stabilize the bike (at least to a higher degree than in the previous betas).
For me this was the fundamental physics change in beta7b and although I found it strange at first, I now love how clean you can ride the GP1000 bikes at their limit.
Quote from: vin97 on December 05, 2015, 10:01:29 PM
As I said, with the DST this discussion is irrelevant because you don't have constant (steering) input.
No, you implied that without auto-align, we'd crash at every mid-corner bump because we'd be "landing" with the wrong steering angle.
That's not necessarily true: for example, with DST and DSA that does not happen (and with DST/DSA you can definitely be turning the front while mind-corner and no contact due to a bump).
So the front tyre could go back down on the track with an angle that is not the "good" one, but this does not mean you'll crash for sure.
Low "alignment errors" will not make you crash, the front will just self align when contact happens (positive trail): it may oscillate a bit and then damp itself out (naturally or thanks to steering damper). Of course, if you land with the steering fully locked left/right, then you can expect troubles.
You seem to think that auto-aligning the steering to middle is always right. It isn't: when you're mid corner, the steering is not necessarily in the middle.
Auto-align to the middle is always correct for wheelies while going straight. But not necessarily for wheeling in a turn.
Not sure what you mean with " [with DST] you don't have constant (steering) input".
....The crankshaft rotating in the correct direction has quite an influence on this issue.
I suggest you try the newest M1 with the fixed crank, Hawk!
Quote from: vin97 on December 10, 2015, 11:03:50 PM
....The crankshaft rotating in the correct direction has quite an influence on this issue.
I suggest you try the newest M1 with the fixed crank, Hawk!
Being able to select different directions for rotating crankshafts is a very exciting discovery; must have been one of Piboso's "
small changes not worth mentioning" changelog items. Hehe ;D
::)
Well yes a counter rotating crankshaft will naturally help a bike not to wheelie and therefore sort of paper over the crack with this issue, but hopefully with Beta 8 and all the physics changes they will help sort out this issue. Let's wait and see. :)
Can't wait to try the new bikemods as soon as they are in the BikeMOD database... Looking forward to it! ;D 8)
Thanks Vin. ;) 8)
Hawk.