Unable To Lean Bikes When Front Wheel In The Air....

[Hawk]

Hahaha fair enough. I disagree but won't push it any further 

Hahaha fair enough. I disagree but won't push it any further 

+1 

If you disagree guys, then show us some evidence of wheelie steering/leaning when the front end is only just off the ground with auto rider control.... I'm open to change my mind if I've come to the wrong conclusions. Always open for that. 

If it doesn't work with auto-rider control then it needs work to sort it out, right? That is all I'm saying here.

We've already found by the evidence here that steering with wheelie is possible with DST or  manual rider control, though I'd still like to see that happen when the front wheel is only lightly off the ground to be certain. 

I'll be testing further when I have the chance.... This case is not closed yet. Lol 

Hawk.

[Hawk]

Here is a replay file showing that you cannot steer/lean using auto rider while front wheel is only moderately up in the air. If you also notice that when the front wheel gets to a certain height it will start to steer with the handlebars, but up to that point I am on full right lean with my controller with no input showing via handlebar torque whatsoever(I had handlebar torque meter showing in debug mode). So that to me is evidence that no steering inputs are being fed to the handlebars when in a moderate(normal) wheelie situation. I'm sure this is why the steering/lean freezes in a normal wheelie situation too? 

But what I cannot figure out is why when the wheel gets to a certain height do the handlebar inputs start again??? Doesn't make sense to me.? 

Replay Evidence: https://mega.nz/#!iBlj0KSS!1MFJuEvMezslybetsFPqtuBNCIdLtos0bmWx5swOkuw

Remember I said there was no handlebar torque input showing via debug mode during this test when in a normal wheelie situation. 

I'll have to make a video showing the debug data at some stage.... Just haven't got the time right now. 

Hawk.

[BOBR6 84]

One of the best examples iv seen is from jamoZ ''how to overtake stout'' video hahaha

Other than that, im not out to prove anybody wrong.. I just think turning/leaning when the front is slightly off the ground is limited because usually its under hard acceleration.. To me it seems about right in GPB.


http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1412.0

[Vini]

You were going too fast and didn't keep the front high enough.
Getting any significant steering in such a short amount of time with a still unstable bike and the center of gravity being so far ahead of the rear wheel is simply not possible.
It has nothing to do with the auto rider (the only difference manual rider control makes in our situation is that you can lean the rider independently of where you steer the front wheel when it's in the air and locked).

[HornetMaX]

I'd tend to agree with BOB and vin97: at decent speed with the front just a bit off the ground and with auto-rider lean, what GPB does seems OK. if you want more control, you'll have to go manual lean (and even that may not steer the bike that much).

However  I'd be less categorical on the fact that there's nothing to be improved. I'm still not 100% sure  under which conditions we're or we are not allowed to steer the bars while wheeling: is it above a certain wheeling angle ? And when exactly does the "auto-align" thing kick in ? Only when the front is going down and is below a given angle ? The experiment with the "auto-align" thingy off would be interesting, but if Piboso tells us that the auto-align is needed, I can trust him.

Finally, as BOB said, we wouldn't even be talking about this if the front was not so willing to go up at the smallest bump on the track and/or under modest thrust.

[Hawk]

One of the best examples iv seen is from jamoZ ''how to overtake stout'' video hahaha

Other than that, im not out to prove anybody wrong.. I just think turning/leaning when the front is slightly off the ground is limited because usually its under hard acceleration.. To me it seems about right in GPB.


http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1412.0

That was beta 6 Bob, yes?

Beta 6 wasn't bad at all for this issue, but for some reason in beta 7 it's back to what I was experiencing in beta 5 I think it was.  So although it was a great video, that particular example is unfortunately irrelevant to this case.

Hawk.
PS: You enjoy posting your riding video's Bob..... Show me some examples of yourself doing these manoeuvres in beta 7 while front wheel is in the air.  I really want to be convinced. Lol

[Hawk]

Okay, okay.... Lol. I will continue my search and testing of this as soon as I can because I'm convinced something is not right about this issue in beta 7. This issue was definitely better in beta 6. Take a look at Jamoz's video that Bob has posted above and try to do the same in beta 7 and I bet you cannot. 

I just find it a very strange thing that in debug mode you can see there is no handlebar torque inputs from auto rider until the front wheel gets to a certain height?? Surely that is not right?

I'll have to test with manual rider and also with DST in debug mode and see the differences; from what has been said in this thread, there is definitely a big difference when using DST and when using manual rider control.

The debate continues.   

Hawk
PS: The replay I posted was a very quick test. I haven't got the time at the moment to fully demonstrate in video the issues I'm talking about at differing speeds and front wheel wheelie heights in differing places on tracks, but I will do it as soon as I have some decent amount of spare time. 

[HornetMaX]

I just find it a very strange thing that in debug mode you can see there is no handlebar torque inputs from auto rider until the front wheel gets to a certain height?? Surely that is not right?

This could be the "auto-align" thing: as the wheelie is too small, GPB keeps the front aligned in case it lands soon.

I'll have to test with manual rider and also with DST in debug mode and see the differences; from what has been said in this thread, there is definitely a big difference when using DST and when using manual rider control.

No need to test with DST: as you're directly controlling the steering with DST/DSA, GPB will do whatever you tell him to do with your input.

[Hawk]

I just find it a very strange thing that in debug mode you can see there is no handlebar torque inputs from auto rider until the front wheel gets to a certain height?? Surely that is not right?

This could be the "auto-align" thing: as the wheelie is too small, GPB keeps the front aligned in case it lands soon.

I'll have to test with manual rider and also with DST in debug mode and see the differences; from what has been said in this thread, there is definitely a big difference when using DST and when using manual rider control.

No need to test with DST: as you're directly controlling the steering with DST/DSA, GPB will do whatever you tell him to do with your input.

Then surely it must be agreed that the auto-rider control does need more work to allow more control during a wheelie? Unless everyone here except myself is happy to put up with it not being perfect? But why say it works fine as it is when it obviously does not..... I just don't understand you guys sometimes.... I mean don't you all want auto-rider bike control to work properly?

As I've said, I haven't tried it with DST as yet so I can only, and do,  trust that it does allow full control during any amount of front wheel off the ground wheelie event. But surely the auto rider should, if not now, eventually be developed further to react in a proper way during wheelie events? That's what I'd like to see....... Perfection is surely the goal to make GPB stand out head and shoulders above the rest.  I just hate making do when it could be better.

I'll still be testing with DST or DSA(Whichever is better) just out of curiosity and the fact that if it allows better control then that is what I want in GPB. 

Hawk.
PS: Where's Klax the DST man these days? Anyone heard from him lately?

[HornetMaX]

Then surely it must be agreed that the auto-rider control does need more work to allow more control during a wheelie? Unless everyone here except myself is happy to put up with it not being perfect? But why say it works fine as it is when it obviously does not..... I just don't understand you guys sometimes.... I mean don't you all want auto-rider bike control to work properly?

You forget that in GPB (with no DST/DSA) you don't control the steering: you control the lean angle.

You seem to want something that says "If the front is on the track, my stick input controls the lean. If the front is up in the air, I want to control the steering".

As it is right now it's essentially OK, especially if that bloody front was not that light in many occasion.

But as I said, I'd be glad to have the otpion to switch the auto-align off: I just don't expect it to allow me to change the direction of the bike in the 1st part of the victoria straight. At 230+ Kmh with the front a few cm off the ground, I'm not sure steering left/right will do a lot.

[Vini]

First of all, Hawk, you are constantly switching between light frontwheel (center of gravity well ahead of the rear wheel) and actual wheelies which makes this discussion unnecessarily confusing.
I thought we finally agreed on the light frontwheel situation because physically it is very similar to steering a bike with only your weight (as shown in the video I posted) and if you look at MotoGP, you'll see that it's hard work for the riders to steer the bike when it's under hard acceleration (they use the full width of the straights because of the understeering front).

Just did a few tests with the automatically leaning rider and you have the same control over wheelies you have when using manual rider lean.
Actually, the control over the front wheel is much improved and the auto-align (that seems to happen when the bike is dropping faster than a specific value) is much less present (if you keep the wheelie smooth it shouldn't happen at all).

Again, if you want full control over the front wheel for the complete wheelie, you'll need to lock it first but be careful when dropping it again.


For me GP Bikes is not a stunt game, so if I have to tap the brake to enable 'stunt mode' it's ok.


I think you are the only one who wants to have more realistic stunt controls instead of ensuring the bike will remain stable when riding normally.

[HornetMaX]

Again, if you want full control over the front wheel for the complete wheelie, you'll need to lock it first but be careful when dropping it again.

But that is something weird (if not a bug): why are we able to control it if it is locked and not if it is spinning ? It doesn't make much sense.

[Vini]

Because then we would probably crash at every high speed corner bump.

[Hawk]

I've always thought the actual definition of a "Wheelie" is when the front wheel leaves the ground, is it not? 

But anyway, personally I'm not into stunt riding so I don't know were you've got that impression from Vin? Maybe from some of the videos shown here to demonstrate the bike reaction while in a wheelie? They are only for demonstration purposes to make sure we all can see the bikes reactions to steering or leaning while in a wheelie event and nothing more. 

Leaning, steering.... I know there is a difference, but this subject is confusing by nature because sometimes we are talking about steering and other times we are talking about leaning, hence I often write "Lean/steer" to cover both. Lol

The subject of the discussion is clearly stated in the title: "Unable To Lean Bikes When Front Wheel In The Air...." At no point have I said anything about stunt wheelies in particular or inferred that we are only talking about stunt wheelies. 

If the bike physics is working right for front wheel in the air events(wheelies for those that might get confused. ), then surely if the bike physics are working correct they should work correct whether the wheelie is a high one or a low one........ Then I have to ask,  if that is so(which some of you seem to think it is) then why is there no handlebar torque inputs shown on the debug info screen from the virtual rider while in a wheelie when the user is trying to "Lean"?

But anyway guys.... Let me do some serious testing first and get back into this debate with some serious evidence.... Trouble is I'm very busy now till after Christmas, so don't expect any sense from me till New Year.  Lol 

Hawk.

[Vini]

If the bike physics is working right for front wheel in the air events(wheelies for those that might get confused. ), then surely if the bike physics are working correct they should work correct whether the wheelie is a high one or a low one........ Then I have to ask,  if that is so(which some of you seem to think it is) then why is there no handlebar torque inputs shown on the debug info screen from the virtual rider while in a wheelie when the user is trying to "Lean"?

The physics is the same and it is correctly simulated in GP Bikes (any more steering of the bike in any situation where the front wheel is off the ground would be unrealistic).
But they are two very different situations for the virtual rider because it has to decide for you what you want to control (lean angle of the bike or the front wheel).
If it would decide that you want to control the front wheel as soon as the wheel is a cm above the ground, every time your bike lifts shortly in a corner, the front wheel would be instantly misaligned (because your input device is going to one side at that moment) and it would most probably make the bike crash when the front touches the ground again.
That's why the virtual rider waits before it switches from lean angle control (which, at that point, is only done by the (automatically) leaning rider) to front wheel control.
You can only get around this issue by using the DST to disable the virtual rider. Then, you bypass this issue completely because the front wheel will not instantly get misaligend since you (optimally) have no steering input mid-corner.


A 'wheelie-control' that keeps the bike at a specific wheelie angle would be nice to test all this further.
Anyway, if you just keep the bike a little bit higher than you did in your short test video, you'll see that the virtual rider will begin to steer the front wheel and, in your case (automatic rider lean), it will keep doing that for quite a long time (unless you let the bike fall too fast, even if it's still doing a wheelie).