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Started by BOBR6 84, May 09, 2014, 11:30:25 pm

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Marcel

Quote from: vin97 on October 06, 2015, 07:08:33 pm
i meant that the handlebar rotates with bike lean angle via an additional motor.
this motor can also create the necessary resistance for the countersteering to feel 'real'.


but that would only make sense if you would be rotating with the handblebar, would be very odd if you sit in place whel you steer and the handlebar rotates around a horizontal axis in addition. You have to sit on something like a simplyfied bike, steer with directsteer like in real life and the sim sends data to an additional motor that adds leaning angle to the hole thing you sit on. but this would also be strange because you have no gforces that push you into the seat so for me it´s enaugh if i have the right seating position and a good inbut and feedback in my steering without any additional rotation of the hole thing or the complete handlebar, would be too much.

HornetMaX

@BOBR6, vin97: (deja vu feeling here) you can't have two independent inputs: on a real bike there's only one input (steering torque). In GPB there's only one input: either the target lean angle (usual way), or the steering angle (DSA) or the steering torque (DST). You can't have, for example, a steering angle and a target lean angle. At best you could have a steering angle (input) and then the whole device could tilt left/right to reflect the bike's lean, but that would not be an input, you wouldn't be bale to tilt it by yourselft left/right and see an effect in GPB.

Quote from: Marcel on October 06, 2015, 06:47:07 pm
I´ve testet 90 degrees in the profile.ini but as excpected it is way too direct.  Feedback in the middle is extremly nervous especially on bumps, it gets impossible to drive straight

Maybe you can change the linearity to give less sensitivity around the middle. Just an idea though.
To me it shouldn't be that shaky on straights, maybe there's a problem in GPB somewhere (and maybe beta7 will improve that).

Quote from: Marcel on October 06, 2015, 06:47:07 pm
Would love a Laserscanned track like in Assetto Corsa with really smooth surface, that would improve the whole feeling a lot i think.

I doubt the problem comes from the track surface not being smooth enough, especially on straights.
At any rate, a laser scan won't help a lot: you still have to reduce it to a manageable number of polygons, so ...
If anything, a well detailed track obtained from a precise laser scan may be less smooth than a manually modelled track.

Quote from: Marcel on October 06, 2015, 06:47:07 pm
I have the quick release hub for Fanatec wheelbase and plan to make a "rim" for it with real handlebars, brake, clutch and some buttons. But that needs a lot of time and i have to read first what controller and potentiometer i need to attach them to the real handlebar.

Leo Bodnar BU0836A: USB Joystick + buttons interface (8 analog axes, 12 buttons). Seems to work just fine.
You can find some useful threads in the Custom Hardware section of the forum: we do have 2 or 3 DIY guys here :)

MaX.

Vini

Quote from: HornetMaX on October 06, 2015, 07:43:26 pmAt best you could have a steering angle (input) and then the whole device could tilt left/right to reflect the bike's lean, but that would not be an input, you wouldn't be bale to tilt it by yourselft left/right and see an effect in GPB.

That's exactly what I meant, though :D
Just like in real life, one input (steering angle or torque) on one axis (pointing towards the ground like in rl) and having the handlebar rotate on a horizontal axis depending on what the resulting lean angle of the bike is in-game.


If the handlebar is not too large and the 'force feedback' (lean angle feedback) is fast enough, it could work very well IMO.

BOBR6 84

October 06, 2015, 08:10:48 pm #498 Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 08:23:02 pm by BOBR6 84
I would prefer to counter steer AND lean the controller device manually anyway.. Although a real bike leans using counter steering I think theres too much focus on c,steering.

Only time I really think about counter steering and use it with force is situations like flat out chicanes where you really have to push on the bars.. Other than that, counter steering pretty much happens naturally with you body position and geometry of the bike.

Thats the connection we have with bikes.. Your body reacts to where you are looking without realizing it most of the time..

Lol. Its like doing a u-turn on the road.. When you get to the middle, if you look at the curb ahead, you wont make it lol. Look back down the road in the direction you want to go and its eeaasy lol.

HornetMaX

Quote from: BOBR6 84 on October 06, 2015, 08:10:48 pm
I would prefer to counter steer AND lean the controller device manually anyway..

That can't be done. At least nor properly.

Quote from: BOBR6 84 on October 06, 2015, 08:10:48 pm
Although a real bike leans using counter steering I think theres too much focus on c,steering.

In fact there's not enough. You always use counter-steering (above let's say 50Kmh), it's just you don't realise it.

Quote from: BOBR6 84 on October 06, 2015, 08:10:48 pm
Only time I really think about counter steering and use it with force is situations like flat out chicanes where you really have to push on the bars.. Other than that, counter steering pretty much happens naturally with you body position and geometry of the bike.

Happens naturally, but it happens: to pick up the bike from leaning in a turn, you steer inside the turn. To lean th ebike right, you steer left (initially).

Quote from: vin97 on October 06, 2015, 07:52:05 pm
If the handlebar is not too large and the 'force feedback' (lean angle feedback) is fast enough, it could work very well IMO.

There wouldn't be any force feedback on the lean axis of the handlebar: it would just lean at the appropriate angle (which would be kinda strange if you're sitting straight, as said by Marcel).

MaX.

Vini

October 06, 2015, 11:50:23 pm #500 Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 12:15:45 am by vin97
Yeah, sorry, meant force feedback on the steering axis and the proper rotation (lean angle) on the horizontal axis.


It might be slightly strange but it should work a little better than the previous approaches.
You can lean your body while sitting in a chair and after all you (try to) keep your head horizontal when riding real bikes anyway so the only missing part is the direct connection between body movements and what the bike is doing. Simulating this properly without cornering forces is basically impossible, though, so it won't get better than that.

HornetMaX

Quote from: vin97 on October 06, 2015, 11:50:23 pm
Yeah, sorry, meant force feedback on the steering axis and the proper rotation (lean angle) on the horizontal axis.

That would be doable but already a bit on the expensive side: a decent motor to tilt left/right reasonably fast (and opposing the force you could put against it), some way to secure it to a support (tougher than what you need for a wheel) ... but it could be interesting.

MaX.

Marcel

Quote from: HornetMaX on October 06, 2015, 07:43:26 pm
Maybe you can change the linearity to give less sensitivity around the middle. Just an idea though.
To me it shouldn't be that shaky on straights, maybe there's a problem in GPB somewhere (and maybe beta7 will improve that).

But it´s the middle where all the steering happens, if i reduce it there i can reduce it everywhere, better to have linear steering, it´s more predictable.

Quote from: HornetMaX on October 06, 2015, 07:43:26 pm
I doubt the problem comes from the track surface not being smooth enough, especially on straights.
At any rate, a laser scan won't help a lot: you still have to reduce it to a manageable number of polygons, so ...
If anything, a well detailed track obtained from a precise laser scan may be less smooth than a manually modelled track.

Kunos used a method for Assetto Corsa where they have extremly detailed drivable surface and a lower detailed one for graphics.

Quote from: HornetMaX on October 06, 2015, 07:43:26 pmLeo Bodnar BU0836A: USB Joystick + buttons interface (8 analog axes, 12 buttons). Seems to work just fine.
You can find some useful threads in the Custom Hardware section of the forum: we do have 2 or 3 DIY guys here :)

Thanks

Quote from: BOBR6 84 on October 06, 2015, 08:10:48 pm
I would prefer to counter steer AND lean the controller device manually anyway.. Although a real bike leans using counter steering I think theres too much focus on c,steering.

Only time I really think about counter steering and use it with force is situations like flat out chicanes where you really have to push on the bars.. Other than that, counter steering pretty much happens naturally with you body position and geometry of the bike.

Thats the connection we have with bikes.. Your body reacts to where you are looking without realizing it most of the time..

Lol. Its like doing a u-turn on the road.. When you get to the middle, if you look at the curb ahead, you wont make it lol. Look back down the road in the direction you want to go and its eeaasy lol.

But your impact of leaning your body goes to zero at higher speeds, it´s just a small thing compared to the steering. You can drive a bike only by steering (countersteering) but you can´t by leaning at all, it will just go straight.

Marcel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PbmXxwKbmA

watch that and you will understand, countersteering is the only thing to steer. i noticed leaning in game has a big impact on the bike, maybe too much.
I read books about motorcycling phsics, watched films like that, where at a couple of driving trainings, used to drive on racetracks for several years and also did some amateur races so i think i can sa that with confidence ;-)

HornetMaX

Quote from: Marcel on October 07, 2015, 02:38:52 pm
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 06, 2015, 07:43:26 pm
Maybe you can change the linearity to give less sensitivity around the middle. Just an idea though.

But it´s the middle where all the steering happens, if i reduce it there i can reduce it everywhere, better to have linear steering, it´s more predictable.

No. The linearity setting in GPB is like the expo setting in RC controls: it's a non-linear curve that makes the sensitivity lower around center and higher elsewhere.
When at 100% it's linear: 1deg movement on your wheel will be translated to 1deg steering movement in game (or whatever value you've set), no matter the initial angle of your wheel.
Lowering the linearity will do something like (exaggerating):

  • Wheel at 0deg, 1 deg movement --> 0.1deg movement in game

  • Wheel at 30deg, 1 deg movement --> 2deg movement in game


So you'll have lower sensitivity around center, only there. In this video, is what they call positive expo:

https://www.youtube.com/v/skU51E5ilG0

MaX.

Marcel

i know, bit i want it as direct as possible in the middle so i set it to the overall setting where it´s direct as possible in the middle without the problems that accure when i set it too high. if i set it higher and compensate that with what you said to get int less direct in the middle i have the same in the middle as set before, but higher sensivity at the outside where i don´t need it

BOBR6 84

October 07, 2015, 05:09:54 pm #506 Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 05:12:13 pm by BOBR6 84


Quote from: Marcel on October 07, 2015, 02:38:52 pm
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on October 06, 2015, 08:10:48 pm
I would prefer to counter steer AND lean the controller device manually anyway.. Although a real bike leans using counter steering I think theres too much focus on c,steering.

Only time I really think about counter steering and use it with force is situations like flat out chicanes where you really have to push on the bars.. Other than that, counter steering pretty much happens naturally with you body position and geometry of the bike.

Thats the connection we have with bikes.. Your body reacts to where you are looking without realizing it most of the time..

Lol. Its like doing a u-turn on the road.. When you get to the middle, if you look at the curb ahead, you wont make it lol. Look back down the road in the direction you want to go and its eeaasy lol.

But your impact of leaning your body goes to zero at higher speeds, it´s just a small thing compared to the steering. You can drive a bike only by steering (countersteering) but you can´t by leaning at all, it will just go straight.


Yeah i understand counter steering dude.. all i mean is i would like a controller to feel natural.. when you move around on a bike you are constantly pushing and pulling on the handlebars, so some people dont realize they are counter steering.. i would like a controller to have that initial counter steer effect but not to feel like inverted steering..

Hawk

Quote from: BOBR6 84 on October 07, 2015, 05:09:54 pm


Quote from: Marcel on October 07, 2015, 02:38:52 pm
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on October 06, 2015, 08:10:48 pm
I would prefer to counter steer AND lean the controller device manually anyway.. Although a real bike leans using counter steering I think theres too much focus on c,steering.

Only time I really think about counter steering and use it with force is situations like flat out chicanes where you really have to push on the bars.. Other than that, counter steering pretty much happens naturally with you body position and geometry of the bike.

Thats the connection we have with bikes.. Your body reacts to where you are looking without realizing it most of the time..

Lol. Its like doing a u-turn on the road.. When you get to the middle, if you look at the curb ahead, you wont make it lol. Look back down the road in the direction you want to go and its eeaasy lol.

But your impact of leaning your body goes to zero at higher speeds, it´s just a small thing compared to the steering. You can drive a bike only by steering (countersteering) but you can´t by leaning at all, it will just go straight.


Yeah i understand counter steering dude.. all i mean is i would like a controller to feel natural.. when you move around on a bike you are constantly pushing and pulling on the handlebars, so some people dont realize they are counter steering.. i would like a controller to have that initial counter steer effect but not to feel like inverted steering..


+1 Bob I agree mate.  ;)
But I think to have that you would need a proper bike handlebar controller with FFB that initially allowed you to steer the bike at very slow speeds but then as the gyro forces(or whatever force it is) built up, the FFB wouldn't allow you to turn the handlebars accept for the slight little bit needed(under force) for counter steering. But I think if you didn't have a ride-rig setup so you could move your body about as you would in real-life then maybe you would still notice it was like inverted steering?

It's a difficult one to get the right feeling for a static control system.  :-\

Hawk.

HornetMaX

It's hard to get the very same feeling as on a real bike, borderline impossible.

Educated guess: DD solution (what he calls "southern pendulum") may give you a good compromise in terms of overall feeling within a reasonable cost. But it hasn't got any FFB nor counter-steering, so you won't get these out of it of course.

MaX.

Marcel

Quote from: BOBR6 84 on October 07, 2015, 05:09:54 pm


Quote from: Marcel on October 07, 2015, 02:38:52 pm
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on October 06, 2015, 08:10:48 pm
I would prefer to counter steer AND lean the controller device manually anyway.. Although a real bike leans using counter steering I think theres too much focus on c,steering.

Only time I really think about counter steering and use it with force is situations like flat out chicanes where you really have to push on the bars.. Other than that, counter steering pretty much happens naturally with you body position and geometry of the bike.

Thats the connection we have with bikes.. Your body reacts to where you are looking without realizing it most of the time..

Lol. Its like doing a u-turn on the road.. When you get to the middle, if you look at the curb ahead, you wont make it lol. Look back down the road in the direction you want to go and its eeaasy lol.

But your impact of leaning your body goes to zero at higher speeds, it´s just a small thing compared to the steering. You can drive a bike only by steering (countersteering) but you can´t by leaning at all, it will just go straight.


Yeah i understand counter steering dude.. all i mean is i would like a controller to feel natural.. when you move around on a bike you are constantly pushing and pulling on the handlebars, so some people dont realize they are counter steering.. i would like a controller to have that initial counter steer effect but not to feel like inverted steering..


But thats how it is now, when i lean right in the seat i push the handlebar to the left a bit without noticing it and the bike leans right. the steering isn´t just inverted it´s like it is in reality, i don´t understand that "not to feel like inverted steering" . also when leaning the player ingame to the right, the bike slightly tilts to the right, handlbar steers to the right and compensates just like in real life. if you would make a bike seat and put the wheel and handlebar in the right position with how i setup everything now it would be very close to steering a real bike, except you have to give it a bit more input because it is less direct. but how you steer and everything is like it is. i haven´t just inverted the steering, then i had to steer in mid corner but look at the wheel... it´s centered mid corner... i just give impulses like in real life