Prototype gp500 physics model

[BOBR6 84]

Yeah I agree!
Its like if u ride with 3rd person camera it may look slower than if you ride onboard etc.. Or it gives you the impression you could go faster through a turn but when onboard everything is at the right scale.. Feels faster being closer to the ground too..

[girlracerTracey]

O.K. I have corrected my mistakes and have added more weight. I'm still below the 130kg level but I have closed the gap back-up from the weight level I was at before.

But I am still being naughty! 

I think the inertia mistakes that I made may have contributed to the wheelies. Adding the extra weight has calmed this tendancy down also.

I am trying to emulate 250 geometry (or should I say suspension settings?) as you can tell from the cfg file.

It's noticeably better than my previous version. Just thought I would share this as I was the one who started all this and this is more of what I was after I think. 

https://mega.co.nz/#!vo4FQI5L!BAootPcsEEn0SF_LmiWiLgymS2vjiTmNhycGVyQHFnI

[C21]

@MAX

setting3 = 4000, 3400
         setting4 = 3000, 3700
         setting5 = 5000, 4000
         setting6 = 3250, 2500
         setting7 = 3000, 2800
         setting8 = 3500, 3100
         setting9 = 4000, 3400

Sorry, it was setting 3 and 9 :-)
If you compare the values of the Varese front suspension rebound to all the ones of the other bikes it it totally different!
And that´s why i assume that this is not correct.
On all other suspensions (front and rear) you have a fast raising 1st value and a slower rasing or steady 2nd value. The front rebound of the Varese is the only one which is different. But it´s still an Upside Down fork as on the other bikes. Bearing in mind that the basic physics for all bikes is the same why should it be different only on that one...it does not make sense.

Yeah I agree!
Its like if u ride with 3rd person camera it may look slower than if you ride onboard etc.. Or it gives you the impression you could go faster through a turn but when onboard everything is at the right scale.. Feels faster being closer to the ground too..

+1
i ride in 3rd person only and if i try 1st person i always think----damn fast!!!!

[Klax75]

Yeah I agree!
Its like if u ride with 3rd person camera it may look slower than if you ride onboard etc.. Or it gives you the impression you could go faster through a turn but when onboard everything is at the right scale.. Feels faster being closer to the ground too..

I ride helmet view, and I love it when I am hanging over the curbs. Only problem is when I take a moment to think "this looks cool!" I find my rider sliding on his butt soon after... lol

[C21]

@tracey
Don´t get me wrong , i like the 500cc beasts but i´m more addicted to the GP250cc and 600ccWSS (both i´ve ridden in real life) and WSBK.
The problem of GPB is you have to focus on a few bikes to get really fast. In the beginning there were only a few but now there are so many bikes that i have to ride and test with  the beloved ones first 

You can try to alter the physics to get near what you think should be close to real BUT you can´t change the basis of the GPB physics.
AND the basis will change with the new beta.
Bear in mind that there are several things on the physics many modders are not really satisfied with and can not be changed in the way the modders want right now.

[HornetMaX]

That's not what I said Max. What I said above was that in my opinion direct lean on "masks" the original problem. If indeed there is a problem.. 

OK then, but it just can't be as you are saying: direct lean ON removes a component, you can't mask something removing something. At best, it's direct lean OFF (which adds a component) that makes the problem appear.

Semantics apart, if the bike flicks OK with direct lean ON and is slow with direct lean OFF this means that the bike physics is OK, the problem lies in the control part (here we call it the "virtual rider", charged to convert your joypad output into the physics model inputs, i.e. steering torque and rider leaning left/right in our case). Changing the physics to solve that makes zero sense.

I give you a concrete example: you have a real bike with 100hp and a ride by wire system. The ride by wire is fucked up (MV-Agusta style), and when you open the throttle the bike revs up slowly. It's not the engine fault, it's the ride by wire fault: its output signal is too filtered, leading to delays and slow response.

Now, how do you fix this ? The good answer is: fix the damn ride by wire.

The bad answer (comparable to what you want to do with the 500 physics) is any of the following: get a more powerful engine, get an engine with reduced internal friction, get an engine with reduced rotating inertia, get a short throttle etc etc.

Sorry, it was setting 3 and 9 :-)

Oh OK, my fault I didn't spot it. Definitely suspect then. Want to open a topic in the bugs section ?

MaX.

[girlracerTracey]

Now, how do you fix this ? The good answer is: fix the damn ride by wire.

The bad answer (comparable to what you want to do with the 500 physics) is any of the following: get a more powerful engine, get an engine with reduced internal friction, get an engine with reduced rotating inertia, get a short throttle etc etc.

I agree with what you're saying Max. But to play devil's advocate for one moment if the other bikes in the gpbikes line-up, aside from the 500s, seem to exhibit better or arguably more realistic physics in terms of their ability to turn into a corner and hold a tighter line then one could argue that, notwithstanding any possible flaws that may exist within the "fly by wire" system, their ability to do so has its beneficial roots in the particular physics model of each of those other bikes concerned..

Is it not the same "filter" or "virtual rider" parameters that govern every bike in gpbikes?

So I guess what I was attempting to do with this was to adjust the gp500 physics model to compensate for this difference in behaviour, perceived or otherwise, between the 500cc bikes (i.e. the varese physics) and the other bikes in the "game".

Under the circumstances is that not arguably a logical thing to attempt to do?

What are your thoughts?

Surely if the "fly by wire" system or "filter", whatever you want to call it, was changed or modified then this would also have an influence and an effect on the behaviour and handling characteristics of the other bikes in the game?

Max, I am new to all of this and I bow to your superior knowledge. But I am if I am honest slightly confused by what you are saying in this respect in your post.

I am not trying to be difficult at all. I'm really not. I'm just trying to understand how all this stuff works.

Can you guide me a bit more on this?

grT 

[girlracerTracey]

@tracey

You can try to alter the physics to get near what you think should be close to real BUT you can´t change the basis of the GPB physics.
AND the basis will change with the new beta.
Bear in mind that there are several things on the physics many modders are not really satisfied with and can not be changed in the way the modders want right now.

Thanks for that. I understand what you are saying. All I am doing really if I am honest is conducting an experiment with the gp500 physics. For my own interest and benefit really. To help me learn the basic principles of the gpbikes physics model.

I feel a bit like an excited puppy in a China shop doing this really if I am honest. Particularly doing this in public on this forum with the experienced modders in attendance.  But one thing I would say is that I am learning some very useful things.

I would just like to thank everyone, yourself and Max included, for bearing with me on this and showing me so much patience. I really appreciate it guys.

Sorry if I seem to be challenging anything that other people may be saying but I am in truth just trying to learn from you all. Anyway thanks again for everyone's help.

grT

[C21]

I´ll take your hand and guide you to......
http://gpbikes-mods.wikia.com/wiki/GPBikes_mods_Wiki
....do you know that?

[HornetMaX]

I agree with what you're saying Max. But to play devil's advocate for one moment if the other bikes in the gpbikes line-up, aside from the 500s, seem to exhibit better or arguably more realistic physics in terms of their ability to turn into a corner and hold a tighter line then one could argue that, notwithstanding any possible flaws that may exist within the "fly by wire" system, their ability to do so has its beneficial roots in the particular physics model of each of those other bikes concerned..

Is it not the same "filter" or "virtual rider" parameters that govern every bike in gpbikes?

Surely if the "fly by wire" system or "filter", whatever you want to call it, was changed or modified then this would also have an influence and an effect on the behaviour and handling characteristics of the other bikes in the game?

That's a very valid remark, but it doesn't alter the main thing: 500cc with direct lean ON flicks OK. And direct lean ON is the "neutral" setting: when you put direct lean OFF, you're actually adding something in between your stick and the (virtual) bike. I really wish Piboso would have called this setting differently: once he mentioned "lean help", which I think would be more appropriate, but it's likely too late to change. It also generate confusion with respect to direct steer.

To be honest to me any bike (especially the 125) feels like a truck in terms of flicking left/right if direct lean is not ON.
We've all discussed this to lengths (before your arrival I mean) and it is clear that it is a personal preference. Most people stick to direct lean OFF because that's the default setting and this is how they started playing the game. Once you play 2 weeks with direct lean OFF (or ON), then there's no return to direct lean ON (or OFF): your brain is so accustomed to the kind of response one of the two gives that the other looks plain weird. I personally took the time to go from direct lean ON  to OFF and to ON again (each time playing at least a month with each setting).

Max, I am new to all of this and I bow to your superior knowledge.

You shouldn't: superior knowledge is something to be shared, not to be shown around in order to have people bowing to. And in this specific case, willingness and some time will bring almost anybody to what I (and others here around) know about this stuff: it's really not that much and surely far less than what Piboso knows.

But I am if I am honest slightly confused by what you are saying in this respect in your post.

The key message is: GPB allows for multiple control strategies. You have direct lean ON/OFF and you have Auto rider lean ON/OFF (without speaking of direct steer).
You are using one of these control strategies and you're saying: the bike does not flick quick enough, let's change the physics.
At the same time, with other control strategies, the bike already flicks as it should.
[/end of key message]


I'd also add that even if nobody here ever rode a 990, we probably have much more information on this kind of bikes compared to what we have about the 500cc ones, including memories of stuff these bikes were or were not able to do.

Personally, when I was watching the 500c bikes (and I was old enough to understand a bit of it, as I'm now 40 yrs old) I was constantly telling myself: "Look at these crazy guys, hanging out of their bikes like mad, leaning to incredible angles defying gravity !! This is incredible, this is impossible !!".

Now I watch a MotoGP bikes do nearly 10 more degrees of leaning and Marquez (and others) hanging off from their bikes in a way that makes Doohan style look as if he wasn't hanging out at all.

That's not to argue the value of 500 bikes vs modern bikes or 500-era riders vs contemporary riders. It's just to underline that sometimes memories are a bit biased.

But in the end, feel absolutely free to continue playing with the physics and to show here what you've done: it wasn't (and isn't) my intention at all to put you off from that.
Just be aware that making a proper physics is not as easy as it seems, especially if you work alone: out of 10 riders, 8 have probably a different riding style each, hence their appreciation of a give physics can be very different.

And if you lack the vary basic notions behind all this, the chances of blundering somewhere are huge. We've witnessed this in the past

MaX.

[girlracerTracey]

Well Max I have to say you are 100% correct in what you are saying..

I am now 100% convinced that the physics model for the gp500 bikes is fine. The reason I am saying this is that I plugged in an old Microsoft Precision Racing Wheel that I had stored with me and to my surprise it was recognised by my windows 7 gamer pc. I didn't think it would work with Windows 7 but to my pleasant surprise it does..

It has transformed the feel of the game. Having calibrated it under the gpbikes settings I tried it with the NSR500 Honda and it works perfectly. Not only that but I can now vouch for the fact that the gp500 physics model is fine. The bike turns in nicely and it holds a nice line through the corners. I didn't really want to use a steering wheel but with "direct lean" on it works perfectly. I just need to fine tune the input settings for the wheel but for  my personal preference but otherwise it's a great solution to the problem I was encountering.

The control with the wheel is really nice to be honest and is much better than I thought it would be. So in a way I'm a very happy bunny indeed!

So I agree the bottom line here is with the "filter" not with the game physics or with the specific "varese" physics for the 500cc bikes. In fact with the wheel the "varese" physics now seem very impressive to me indeed.

This has transformed the game for me. I'm now a member of the direct lean club but to my surprise not with my xbox controller but with a steering wheel.

Thanks for all your help and advice Max. I really appreciate it. 

grT
 

[girlracerTracey]

I´ll take your hand and guide you to......
http://gpbikes-mods.wikia.com/wiki/GPBikes_mods_Wiki
....do you know that?

Thanks C21 I had seen this but I am now going to have a more careful read through for my reference. Although as per my post above I have now found quite a surprising but very effective solution to my woes..

grT 

[C21]

Hmm..maybe i should try One of my Logitech G25 with Pedals.....as i read your Last Statement with the MPRW?
Still using the XBox Controller because Most of the guys and Girl did 

Of you still would like to modify physics and questions about Feel Free to ask, Most of the Time you will get an answer

[BOBR6 84]

I see the logic in using a wheel.. I couldnt do it personally, wouldnt feel right after using the xbox pad for so long..
I think the only thing stopping the bike from flicking left/right quickly and smooth is the handlebars shaking from the virtual rider.. Which is realistic in my opinion! I still think an adjustable steering damper would sort that out.. As it would and does help in real life..

[girlracerTracey]

In all seriousness I would definitely give it a go C21. It removes the "block" to the physics completely. I have been playing with the wheel this evening and for me it feels like a completely different game now. It's brilliant to now experience the true physics as they were intended to be in the "game".

I am so happy with this now. It's a revelation for me..and I am not exaggerating!

gpbikes, with the benefit of the wheel, reminds me a lot of the gp500 pc game. There are definite echos for me of the gp500 game in the way gpbikes plays and feels. But PiBoSo has taken the concept of the gp500 game to an entirely new and much higher level. But it does feel strangely familiar.. I played gp500 using a wheel for years just to explain.

Also with the wheel I think you have a bit more accuracy in running up to the edge of the kerbs and track edges..which is a nice bonus. I can't keep off it now!

grT