Prototype gp500 physics model

[girlracerTracey]

@ JamoZ: lol 

O.K. without wishing to labour the point I did a back to back to back comparison test using my steering wheel and pedals, my wired xbox controller with "direct lean" on and finally my xbox controller with "direct lean" off.

For the sake of it here are my impressions:

Steering wheel and pedals (direct lean on)

Absolutely perfect. gp500 "varese" physics come to life brilliantly. Great "turn-in" ability and an impressive ability to hold a tight line through the corners. Lovely neutral feel to the steering combined with an impressive agility in overall handling. Impressive ability to maintain control even when the bike gets badly out of shape on the brakes or on the power courtesy of a much greater range of movement in the steering wheel and pedals which allows more accurate and finer controller inputs to counter and compensate the out of shape state that the bike finds itself in. You can track more accurate lines right up to the edge of the track more reliably and accurately. Also direction changes generally are more controlled and accurate..for example lining up the jump at Cadwell Park before the mountain section is much easier now. An amazing ability using the more accurate front brake input via the left foot pedal to raise the rear end of the bike on braking into turns..you can make the rear end bunny hop or perform a rear wheel "wheelie" into the braking area..just by modulating the front brake input. Which to my mind is very impressive indeed!

Downsides/negatives? Steering is "slower" because of the steering wheel's inertia and because of the movement amplitude as Max rightly described in an earlier post.  That is the trade-off to the great number of advantages listed above.


Xbox Wired Controller direct-lean on

Great "turn-in" ability and impressive ability to hold a tight line through the corners to match that experienced with the steering wheel. Nice agility in overall handling.

Compared to the steering wheel the steering is significantly quicker. You can "throw" the bike around more easily and change direction more quickly than you can using the steering wheel.


Downsides/negatives: Steering is more "twitchy" which can cause you to get out of shape more easily than with the steering wheel. As discussed at length in this thread and elsewhere with direct-lean on you have to use a special and delicate approach to steering input via the left thumb-stick. Takes a lot of getting used to I think. Because of this I have concerns over how quickly & effectively one might be able to respond with compensatory steering inputs if the bike gets itself badly out of shape. I think it is possible that such a scenario might catch one out (unless one is very practiced and proficient in the art of using a thumb-stick with direct lean on) and cause a fall.


Xbox Wired Controller direct-lean off

Within 10 seconds or so of starting out on my first lap from the pitlane at Silverstone that old feeling of a serious problem with the handling of the NSR500 on the "varese" physics came back to haunt me.. the bike displayed a real reluctance to turn-in properly into bends and once in the bends would under-steer repeatedly and run wide. Not nice. It no longer felt like a gp500 grand prix bike. No where near to one in fact.

Also steering responses from controller input seemed a little "laggy" compared to the feel one gets with the joypad with direct-lean on. Which I guess is only to be expected with the "filter" activated and moderating the steering inputs.

Advantages: No problem whatsoever in returning the bike to the vertical on exiting a bend..just flick the joy-stick back to the centre as you would do in almost all other racing games. You really can "throw" the thumb-stick around in this respect without having to even think about it.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So there you go. The above are my honest impressions having tested all controller options back to back one after the other. In a way this is reassuring for me as I was beginning to think I was going slightly mad whilst running the option of a joypad with direct lean off.. But clearly I wasn't going mad. Not at all. No wonder I wanted to experimentally adjust the physics for the 500cc bikes to try to make the handling feel right.. No wonder at all in hindsight.

My own honest opinion? The best controller option of all resulting in the fastest in lap times I strongly suspect would be a joypad running with direct lean off but crucially with a revised and reworked "filter" properly in place in the game.

I come at this quite objectively because I am new to the game and just want to find the controller input option that works best for me and which will result in the best "feel" and the best lap times. I am not here to toddle round and enjoy the scenery. I am here to try to be as competitive as I possibly can be and to achieve some decent enough lap times and some decent enough race results. If I possibly can. I was competitive on gp500 and motogp13 and have won plenty of races online. I aim to at least provide some degree of worthy competition here as well. Once I get used to the game..

So this "stuff" is very important to me.

grT   

[HornetMaX]

Nice wrap up grT.

Do you know you can use your wheel's pedals along with your joypad ? GPB allows you to "mix" more than one controller together.

Concerning lap times, you can have a look at the stats pages (http://stats.gp-bikes.com/records.php?trackid=42&bikeid=4) to have an idea of how fast is fast.
I do think the times there have some margin as activity on GPB is a bit low at the moment, so some bike/track combos may not be very representative (especially for the 125 and 500 bike).

Also, many are now playing with the 600cc WSS bikes, for which the stats page does not keep the best times. You can find some there: http://gp-bikes.motonline-france.com/index.php

MaX.

P.S.
My mission to convert all the infidels to the holy grail of direct leaning is close to its end. About bloody time ...

[JamoZ]

Of course that leaderboard is not  representative, RTH is not hotlapping atm 

Also, you`ll never lure me over to the dark side as long as i`m putting in those laptimes with my infidel controller settings   

[HornetMaX]

Of course that leaderboard is not  representative, RTH is not hotlapping atm 

Too busy making sand castles ?

Also, you`ll never lure me over to the dark side as long as i`m putting in those laptimes with my infidel controller settings   

The dark side you on are, knowing even without.

MaX.

[BOBR6 84]

Tried direct lean again.. Its not for me, I cant see how you could go fast with it unless you have robotic thumbs lol

Each to their own I guess..

My main goal at the moment with gpbikes is to get at least a 1:26 at phillip island! So im sticking with d/l off.. Its not looking good though lol stuck on 1:29

Question.. Is it possible to do a 1:25/26 with traction control off

[girlracerTracey]

Also, you`ll never lure me over to the dark side as long as i`m putting in those laptimes with my infidel controller settings   

I suspect you are possibly correct in what you are saying JamoZ. The outright quickest option at the moment is probably a joypad running with direct lean off..

But it feels horrible in terms of turn-in and it has a big tendancy to understeer badly on many of the bends. Particularly so on the 500cc bikes. To me on the 500s it feels downright awful if I am honest.

I think the truth is that the versatility of a modern good quality joypad controller (whether xbox 360, PS3 or other type) combined with the developed skills of an experienced and fast player compensates for the flaws that I now believe are present in the "filter" between the game physics and the joypad controller input. Good players are able to compensate for the tendency of say a 500cc bike to under-steer and to turn-in clumsily whilst making full use of the other attributes that running a joypad with direct lean off provides you with. But it's not right is it?

To me this saga will continue until the proximate cause of all this confusion is properly dealt with. The proximate cause being the flaws in the "filter" that sits between the game physics and the steering input(s) when direct lean is turned off..

To put it succinctly the "filter" needs to be reworked. 

Otherwise my perception of the situation as a newcomer is that this strange situation will continue for anyone who chooses to use a gamepad in gpbikes now and in the future.

With the filter fixed people would have a proper and fair choice in using a gamepad in this truly brilliant simulation of real motorcycle sport whilst electing to run with either direct lean turned on or off.

Is this not the required solution here?

If somehow I am missing something obvious or technical that means the "filter" cannot be worked on and modified and that it must remain as it presently is then fair enough. I can live with that and I would apologise for my naivety..however I am racking my brains to try to understand how this could be the case if I am honest.

In the meantime I will I think persevere with my steering wheel and pedals and see if I can get up to speed that way..

This is just my opinion. I sincerely hope no one minds me voicing it.

grT 

[HornetMaX]

Question.. Is it possible to do a 1:25/26 with traction control off

You mean traction help or the bike's traction control ?

Traction help is not used often (I think the majority has it off) while traction control is just a preference: it may depend on the track, on the conditions etc.

A few have done 1:25 and some more 1:26. I would say that many ore than the ones currently listed on the stats page are capable of 1.26 at least, as Victoria being the default track, many just no longer use it too much. So 1:26 is definitely possible (but not easy), 1:25 is elite level for me.

I suspect you are possibly correct in what you are saying JamoZ. The outright quickest option at the moment is probably a joypad running with direct lean off..

But it feels horrible in terms of turn-in and it has a big tendancy to understeer badly on many of the bends. Particularly so on the 500cc bikes. To me on the 500s it feels downright awful if I am honest.

But how can it be quicker if it has those disadvantages ?
Can you tell me where exactly it is/seems/feels quicker ?

To put it succinctly the "filter" needs to be reworked. 

Otherwise my perception of the situation as a newcomer is that this strange situation will continue for anyone who chooses to use a gamepad in gpbikes now and in the future.

With the filter fixed people would have a proper and fair choice in using a gamepad in this truly brilliant simulation of real motorcycle sport whilst electing to run with either direct lean turned on or off.

Is this not the required solution here?

If somehow I am missing something obvious or technical that means the "filter" cannot be worked on and modified and that it must remain as it presently is then fair enough. I can live with that and I would apologise for my naivety..however I am racking my brains to try to understand how this could be the case if I am honest.

It's not that simple and there are indeed some limitations that you can't overcome, no matter how much you work on a filter.
Whichever low-pass filter will introduce some delay, typically the more you filter the bigger the delay.

From the few info Piboso has provided on this subject, the filter implemented in GPB is not a trivial one so I can only think it's already some sort of sophisticated stuff, meaning it's not so sure there are obvious ways to improve it.

One thing I suggested in the past (but the boss didn't sound too sold on it, it didn't sound at all actually) is to have a slider that allows to gradually move from direct lean OFF to direct lean ON (as we have them today). It's just speculation, but maybe something mid-way could suit all of us (and having it tunable could be a plus). I even think this isn't especially difficult to implement.

By the way, if you put direct lean ON and it feels too jerky, you can try to tame it down using the "smooth" thing (that is, guess what, just another filter).
The interesting thing about the "smooth" option is that it is tunable (various levels) and tunable separately for press/release (which in terms of leaning would be lean/pick up).

MaX.

[BOBR6 84]

Just the bikes traction control..
Not using any tc or anti wheelie at the moment but I have tried it.. Not sure what is better

[JamoZ]

Of course that leaderboard is not  representative, RTH is not hotlapping atm 

Too busy making sand castles ?

No we discovered Hentai 

Just the bikes traction control..
Not using any tc or anti wheelie at the moment but I have tried it.. Not sure what is better

We originally started playing GPB without any electronical assists. But we soon found out that the majority of the players used some form of electronics, and after putting our pride aside we found out that it doesn`t specifically makes you any faster. I find it more that it takes some tasks out of your hands so that you can focus on other things that are thrown at you. You also have to learn how to ride with the TC and how to make the best use of it, where you can exit a corner full throttle and lean against the TC for example. Don`t expect to magically be 2 seconds faster by putting TC or anti wheelie on.

And yes, 1.26 is doable without electronics...

[BOBR6 84]

Il give it a proper go with traction control.. I dont expect to go much if any quicker with it.. Just trying to find the right path to go down! Controller setup.. Bike setup..etc

[girlracerTracey]

But how can it be quicker if it has those disadvantages ?
Can you tell me where exactly it is/seems/feels quicker ?

I think for many people, notwithstanding the problems with it, a joypad with direct lean off and the "filter" activated will, possibly at least, still be the fastest option because of familiarity of feel with the thumbstick behaviour and with the in-game steering reactions with this set-up. The thumbstick's control and influence over the steering with this set-up reflects thumbstick control and behaviour seen in the overwhelming majority of other racing games, whether on  two wheels or four, since the metaphorical dawn of time. Analogue joypad's have always behaved like this..from probably PS1 onwards.

Also I think that for many people the joypad, or more specifically the thumbstick on the joystick, with direct lean off, may provide a more "forgiving" steering input in gpbikes with a less demanding and exacting thumbstick control technique on the part of the player. I suppose one might argue that the joypad with direct lean off offers a more user friendly feel to steering inputs compared to the more challenging technique required to be a fully paid up member of the "direct lean on" club.

I suppose the parallel to real life motorcycle racing is the adage that if you give a racer a race bike that he or she is more comfortable and familiar with in terms of its handling he or she will go faster. Because the bike feels more user friendly to the racer..

I'm playing Devil's advocate again Max.   
   

It's not that simple and there are indeed some limitations that you can't overcome, no matter how much you work on a filter.
Whichever low-pass filter will introduce some delay, typically the more you filter the bigger the delay.

From the few info Piboso has provided on this subject, the filter implemented in GPB is not a trivial one so I can only think it's already some sort of sophisticated stuff, meaning it's not so sure there are obvious ways to improve it.

One thing I suggested in the past (but the boss didn't sound too sold on it, it didn't sound at all actually) is to have a slider that allows to gradually move from direct lean OFF to direct lean ON (as we have them today). It's just speculation, but maybe something mid-way could suit all of us (and having it tunable could be a plus). I even think this isn't especially difficult to implement.

I do hear what you are saying Max. I suppose only PiBoSo himself can probably answer this question that I have cheekily posed.

However, my lay-person's  arguably "simple" mind is telling me that every filter of this type, whether complex or not, should have some scope for fine adjustment in it. Arguably the greater the complexities of the "filter" are the more advanced the scope for adjustment becomes? That at least is what my layperson's logic is telling me anyway.  But maybe I'm completely wrong in thinking this?

The bottom line for me remains that in its current manifestation the "filter" seems to be displaying a flaw. Which I think is causing quite a lot of frustration for many people.

I like the sound of a slider too by the way. If implemented correctly that could present people with a worthwhile solution here. Also in making all these comments I do fully concede that to an experienced user such as yourself a joypad running with direct lean on represents a formidable and very competitive controller set-up option in the game. I am not arguing against that fact. No way. But it seems to be a select number of players who can master the required technique and who can end-up feeling comfortable with this set-up. I think you yourself Max left the direct lean on club once before and then came back to it..which I think does illustrate that it can be a difficult club to join and maintain one's membership within. 

In honesty I am now quite happy using a steering wheel. I like it as a controller option very much. The truth is that using a steering wheel and pedals set-up has opened my eyes to how brilliant the physics model is in the game. And it is brilliant. However, it should feel brilliant with a familiar feeling joypad in the game as well..

That's all I'm saying. 

grT

P.S. thanks Max for the "smoothness" tips on setting up the lean input within the controller settings. I gave it a go and yes it does help quite a bit in reducing the jerkiness in the thumbstick inputs. A very worthwhile tip. 

[BOBR6 84]

Hmm im not sure there is any problem with direct lean off.. Iv just done loads of laps with direct lean off and manual rider L/R lean..

Its pretty damn good! Be difficult to go really fast but you can deffinately push harder through turns, if I sit the rider up a little bit I fly over parts of the track where I would probably crash with auto L/R lean..

So is it..

Direct lean on/off
Auto/manual rider L/R
Direct steer with/without torque..

Whats the best combo? I think Klax is the only guy doin it right lol
Everything else seems to have drawbacks..

Still im gonna be stubborn and keep the idea that an adjustable steering damper will solve everything hahahaha 

[HornetMaX]

But how can it be quicker if it has those disadvantages ?
Can you tell me where exactly it is/seems/feels quicker ?

I think for many people, notwithstanding the problems with it, a joypad with direct lean off and the "filter" activated will, possibly at least, still be the fastest option because of familiarity of feel with the thumbstick behaviour and with the in-game steering reactions with this set-up.

Yeah but the familiarity is not a valid argument. Get familiar with direct lean ON and then we can discuss.
It's like saying english is a better language than german because I once tried german and I didn't like it.
OK, english is a better language than german, but not for that reason

The bottom line for me remains that in its current manifestation the "filter" seems to be displaying a flaw. Which I think is causing quite a lot of frustration for many people.

Hmm that's not really the case: nobody of the the direct lean off players is complaining about it. They just feel it's right and direct lean ON feels wrong.
The ones that feel direct lean OFF wrong, well, they switch to direct lean ON

But it seems to be a select number of players who can master the required technique and who can end-up feeling comfortable with this set-up. I think you yourself Max left the direct lean on club once before and then came back to it..which I think does illustrate that it can be a difficult club to join and maintain one's membership within. 

I started with direct lean OFF (as it's the default), felt the bike too hard to flick, moved to ON and was as happy as a lamb after easter (or as a turkey after thanksgiving, for our US friends).
Then discussing with the others, everybody was using it OFF, so I gave it a try (a long try, not a 10min job). Against my own will, as it felt wrong.
After a month I decided it was not OK for me, so I moved back to ON. I don't remember being any faster with it OFF, only more annoyed.

But once again, all the fast guys here use it OFF. Does that means that having it ON makes you slower ? They say yes (but they never really tried it out as you did), I say no. We agree to disagree and life goes on.

Hmm im not sure there is any problem with direct lean off.. Iv just done loads of laps with direct lean off and manual rider L/R lean..

There's definitely something strange going on with the auto rider lean L/R. I posted in the bugs report section a while ago (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1156.0) but we have no reply yet from da men (and, like other touchy subjects, we may never get one).

But there's no "best" combo BOBR6, it's just how you want to play it.
What Klax is doing is surely out of reach: playing direct steer without force feedback is crazy (but I do understand why he wants to do it).

MaX.

MaX.

[girlracerTracey]

Maximilian, if you and I were somehow husband and wife coexisting in a parallel universe I am sure in my mind we would fall asleep most nights still murmuring under our breaths concerning the relative merits and disadvantages of "direct-lean on" versus "direct lean off".

On one particular occasion this might continue throughout the next morning and through to lunchtime..with me adding fuel to the fire over lunch by insisting upon mentioning "filters" and problems with "turn in" whilst you silently shake your head whilst chewing on a sprout..  Things would inevitably come to a head later in the afternoon in the garden with me turning the hosepipe on you full blast whilst you are innocently pruning your dahlias and trying to forget our strongly held differences..    

Hmm that's not really the case: nobody of the the direct lean off players is complaining about it. They just feel it's right and direct lean ON feels wrong.
The ones that feel direct lean OFF wrong, well, they switch to direct lean ON

Dare I say it though Max but that is not the full picture is it?

Some members of the "direct lean off" club have been quite vocal in criticising the handling of certain bikes in the game. Particularly the 500cc bikes with the "varese" physics. JamoZ for example describes the 500cc bikes as handling like a "dustcart".

I think you yourself have commented in this thread to the effect that with "direct lean off" many of the bikes in the game have a tendency to handle and feel like dustcarts including the 125..

So something does seem to be amiss somewhere I would suggest when you turn off direct lean and use your joypad.

Max, I hear what you are saying about the filter..can you please explain to me how and why you think the culprit here may be the "virtual rider" model within the physics engine as opposed to the "filter" itself?

Are you saying, in effect, that when the "filter" is activated that the "virtual rider" itself does not blend and function with the "filter" correctly?

Are you also detecting faults with the "virtual rider" within the medium of "direct lean" being turned on?

I am happy to switch culprits if there is good reason to do so..

Big hug, grT 

[girlracerTracey]

Max, don't worry. I just followed the link you provided above to Bob..I am reading through your topic "Direct lean and auto/manual rider lean L/R"

I am having a careful read through.

Cheers, grT