Prototype gp500 physics model

[JamoZ]

Maximilian, if you and I were somehow husband and wife coexisting in a parallel universe I am sure in my mind we would fall asleep most nights still murmuring under our breaths concerning the relative merits and disadvantages of "direct-lean on" versus "direct lean off".

On one particular occasion this might continue throughout the next morning and through to lunchtime..with me adding fuel to the fire over lunch by insisting upon mentioning "filters" and problems with "turn in" whilst you silently shake your head whilst chewing on a sprout..  Things would inevitably come to a head later in the afternoon in the garden with me turning the hosepipe on you full blast whilst you are innocently pruning your dahlias and trying to forget our strongly held differences..

Boy, and i thought MaX was the only lunatic around here 

This topic brings back good memories of the old forum where people almost killed eachother over this subject 

[girlracerTracey]

This quote from chwiej on the other thread speaks volumes to me I have to say:

Quote
Same here.I'm almost giving up.Original bikes are not that bad but it still happends.I play with direct lean on (the only way with wireless xbox 360 controller).I noticed that if you turn off automatic L/R lean off,the problem is gone.WHAT IS GOING ON?It is really annoying,I tried playing with deadzones, smoothing and linearity and nothing seems to help.The other option is to turn off direct lean,but then steering got a huge delay,bike feels like a boat all over the track.I think its a physics problem( virtual rider or automatic lean).
Unquote

[HornetMaX]

Maximilian, if you and I were somehow husband and wife coexisting in a parallel universe

I like your wording: coexistence more or less nails the marriage thing

Some members of the "direct lean off" club have been quite vocal in criticising the handling of certain bikes in the game. Particularly the 500cc bikes with the "varese" physics. JamoZ for example describes the 500cc bikes as handling like a "dustcart".

Surely, but he has no complains on the 990 for example.
And I can't recall anybody complainig about the 125 (which is the bike that, to me, feels wrongest when direct lean is OFF). Of course, except the ones that switched to direct lean ON.

I think you yourself have commented in this thread to the effect that with "direct lean off" many of the bikes in the game have a tendency to handle and feel like dustcarts including the 125..

I have, but I'm not one of the "direct lean off" guys.

So something does seem to be amiss somewhere I would suggest when you turn off direct lean and use your joypad.

There's a fair chance it's not amiss: it's just like that. You filter, you get that. You don't, well, you don't.

This quote from chwiej on the other thread speaks volumes to me I have to say:

Quote
Same here.I'm almost giving up.Original bikes are not that bad but it still happends.I play with direct lean on (the only way with wireless xbox 360 controller).I noticed that if you turn off automatic L/R lean off,the problem is gone.WHAT IS GOING ON?It is really annoying,I tried playing with deadzones, smoothing and linearity and nothing seems to help.The other option is to turn off direct lean,but then steering got a huge delay,bike feels like a boat all over the track.I think its a physics problem( virtual rider or automatic lean).
Unquote

Not sure it speaks volumes: chwiej said that direct lean off feels wrong to him, so he switched to direct lean on.
The thing he's complaining about (losing the front for no particular reason) seems to come from the auto rider lean, not from direct lean ON or OFF. It's a different issue.

Boy, and i thought MaX was the only lunatic around here 

Pfff, yeah sure ... not saying I'm not, but I have a pretty long list of lunatics here ...

This topic brings back good memories of the old forum where people almost killed eachother over this subject 

I don't remember any blood being poured on this (on other subject yes, but not on this one). But it's not too late

MaX.

[girlracerTracey]

Max, I am not going to torment you any more over all this.  But I do thank you once again for your forbearance and for your guidance and assistance.

I have found a great solution that works really well for me and which I am happy with. Namely my steering wheel and pedals.

I think you have a point Max. At the moment the best option in terms of controller input and accurate controller response in the game is with direct lean on. I have found that out for myself by switching to my steering wheel and pedals. I also think with perseverance the joypad direct-lean on option can and does work very well in the game. But it does take some determination and retraining of the grey matter to get there. It's my second best option now. Without a doubt. I hated it before but now I quite like it if I am honest. The "rubber band" feeling has gone..never thought it would but it has which is a pleasant surprise.   

As a parting shot on the subject all I can say is that in other games such as gp500 there is a filter that activates when you use a joypad. So you are not running a "direct-lean" on arrangement in the gp500 game. The feel whilst using a joypad in gp500 is very realistic and it is very pleasant to use without it producing any deficits in the handling of the bikes in the game. It works beautifully. Also when using a steering wheel in the game, presumably without this filter, the handling in the game feels equally as pleasant and accurate. I am the first to admit that gpbikes is a much more technically advanced "kettle of fish" however and that my simplistic view on all this may well not be viable or appropriate in the context of PiBoSo's gpbikes.

More than that I cannot say. But I am really enjoying gpbikes! That is one thing I can vouch for with 100% certainty.

Best to all, grT 

[HornetMaX]

As a parting shot on the subject all I can say is that in other games such as gp500 there is a filter that activates when you use a joypad. So you are not running a "direct-lean" on arrangement in the gp500 game. The feel whilst using a joypad in gp500 is very realistic and it is very pleasant to use without it producing any deficits in the handling of the bikes in the game. It works beautifully. Also when using a steering wheel in the game, presumably without this filter, the handling in the game feels equally as pleasant and accurate. I am the first to admit that gpbikes is a much more technically advanced "kettle of fish" however and that my simplistic view on all this may well not be viable or appropriate in the context of PiBoSo's gpbikes.

gp500 is so old that I'm not even sure at the time quality analog joypads were available. It is my understanding that it has essentially been designed to be played with a keyboard (I can be wrong on this point): this of course requires some heavy filtering to get something decent. I wouldn't be surprised if some compromise had been made even in the bikes' physics in order to better "tolerate" non-analog inputs.

And you're right: the GPB bike model is very likely to be much more complex and detailed than the gp500 one, so some behaviour appearing here could be totally absent there.

MaX.

P.S.
Is the usage of words like "forbearance" allowed on this forum ? 

[BOBR6 84]

Lol!! What does forbearence actually mean?

Bloody linguists.. 

Nah I enjoyed reading through all that I gotta say lol

Great job

[girlracerTracey]

gp500 is so old that I'm not even sure at the time quality analog joypads were available. It is my understanding that it has essentially been designed to be played with a keyboard.

I can confirm that the gp500 pc game has full support for analogue steering wheels, analogue joypads, analogue joysticks as well as a keyboard.

The throttle is fully analogue, the front brake and rear brake may also be be mapped to fully analogue inputs. The keyboard option and/or digital input options are also there, as incredibly to me, some players preferred to play with the keyboard and some still do this to this day!

Analogue joypads were becoming quite commonly available I think at the time of the game's release. Fully analogue joysticks were also available. As was the microsoft sidewinder force feedback wheel which had just been released. My Dad purchased an analogue joypad in 1999 to play the game with and it worked fine although he ended up preferring his microsoft steering wheel and pedals I believe. I still have the analogue joypad in a box at home somewhere.

In the control settings for the gp500 game there are tabs for a steering wheel, joystick, gamepad (all with analogue inputs available) and also separately for the keyboard.

I think there must be filters of some sort pre-set in the game as the analogue sticks on the xbox controller feels as perfectly dialled in as does the steering wheel when you plug each controller into the game and calibrate the settings.

I think gp500 was incredibly advanced for its day. Having said that the earlier Superbike World Championship pc game by Milestone I think also had full analogue inputs available for steering, throttle and front brake. So gp500 wasn't the first..

I would definitely agree though that the physics model and any filters that may be in the game are not likely to be comparable in their complexity to those in gpbikes.

I'm a little surprised Max that you didn't play gp500 all those years ago before the gpbikes betas were released. I reckon your wife must have had you better trained in those days! 

Sorry about my use of words but I can't help it! lol. It's not deliberate..it's the way I speak. I attended an English language school in Paris for years and they all spoke that way Help! LOL.

grT 

[BOBR6 84]

Lol it amazes me how most people can speak english.. Usually better english than an englishman!

I know a few foreign words but thats all..

MaX.. Are you french? I read you were living in scotland! How on earth does a french guy understand a scottsman?? Lol

[JamoZ]

Just get on their level, drink loads of beer and eventually you`ll be able to understand them! Same for Irish people, you just need alot of booze. 

[BOBR6 84]

Haahaha thats true..
I think beer is all 5 of your 5 a day in scotland lol.

On a night out though nobody drinks more than the dutch! Im my experiences anyway..

Apparantly iv been to amsterdam and Assen! But I dont remember lol

[HornetMaX]

Analogue joypads were becoming quite commonly available I think at the time of the game's release.

Yes, but were they of decent quality ?
I ask because before buying an almighty xbox 360 pad I used to play with an equally priced Thrustmaster 3-in-1 dual analog super ultra mega powers for the win.
GPB was a nightmare. The day I said "fuck it, I'll buy a 360 pad just to see", is the day I really started to enjoy GPB. The thrustcrapper has reached the trash can immediately.

I'm a little surprised Max that you didn't play gp500 all those years ago before the gpbikes betas were released. I reckon your wife must have had you better trained in those days! 

I've never been a big (computer games) player, a bit of this and that when I was young, some cod4 in teams more recently. For a while I was playing backgammon semi-seriously. But with a work, a wife, two kids and a bike, it's hard to find the time for these things. Made the mistake to have a look at GPB and ...

Sorry about my use of words but I can't help it! lol. It's not deliberate..it's the way I speak. I attended an English language school in Paris for years and they all spoke that way Help! LOL.

I've studied in Paris too. Hated the city.

MaX.. Are you french? I read you were living in scotland! How on earth does a french guy understand a scottsman?? Lol

I'm italian (sad thing, I know) but I've been living in France since 1997: I studied a year in Paris and decided that France was (and is) way better than Italy. But as I hate Paris, went down south to live in the Nice/Cannes area. Much better, especially for biking

These last months I've been in Glasgow on a sabbatical year: very bad idea. Weather sucks (I mean it sucks big big time), city sucks (*), plenty of other things sucks. People are very kind and much more civilized than in France (not to speak about Italy), but the only real good thing I've had here are rugby matches (as a spectator I mean).
In 3 weeks time I'm back to the Cote d'Azur. W00t!!1 I'm counting the milliseconds ...

Anyway, I can't understand a scottsman (unless he's speaking a proper english). Glaswegian in particular: they could speak arab it'd be the same for me. Sometimes I'm not even sure they understand each other. Once it took me 4 repetitions of "Tomorrow by 4" before I finally managed to understand (and mostly thanks to some complicate reasoning around the place I was in, a dry cleaning). It sounded something like "toommow bafo" and the jock (hehe) was doing clearly no effort to help ... well, FYTP (as Inspector Rebus says, in Ian Rankin's books).

MaX.

(*) Funny, I was reading this no more than 1 hour ago: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27309446?ocid=socialflow_facebook
It'a bit long, but he core message is in the following lines:

(Glasgow's) Obesity rates are among the highest in the world.

...

A 2011 study compared it (mortality) with Liverpool and Manchester, which have roughly equal levels of unemployment, deprivation and inequality. It found that residents of Glasgow are about 30% more likely to die young, and 60% of those excess deaths are triggered by just four things - drugs, alcohol, suicide and violence.

That's no place to live. At least not for me.

[JamoZ]

I thought you were french 

I`m sorry, i disliked you for no reason except being french (actually that`s quite a legitimate reason for most people )

Now that we know you`re italian, teach me some italian. I love Italy & the Italians 
I`ll teach you some dutch words, you`ll impress the ladies with your manly dutch talk...

[BOBR6 84]

Lol yeah how can anybody dislike italians?

Nail biting moment id say ''ahhh f#*k me that was close!''

Itailian would say ''mamma mia'' lol

Wish I could move abroad.. Bored of this over crowded shithole we call great britain.. Great racetracks though lol

[HornetMaX]

I thought you were french 

I`m sorry, i disliked you for no reason except being french (actually that`s quite a legitimate reason for most people )

Don't be sorry, the reason was very valid indeed. And if you really know me, you have plenty of other reasons to dislike me

Now that we know you`re italian, teach me some italian. I love Italy & the Italians 
I`ll teach you some dutch words, you`ll impress the ladies with your manly dutch talk...

Dutch ? Yeah thaks mate, I'll add it to my collection of useless languages (at the moment including italian and some romanian).

Wish I could move abroad.. Bored of this over crowded shithole we call great britain.

Come to Glasgow, it may change your mind

MaX.

[girlracerTracey]

Analogue joypads were becoming quite commonly available I think at the time of the game's release.

Yes, but were they of decent quality ?
I ask because before buying an almighty xbox 360 pad I used to play with an equally priced Thrustmaster 3-in-1 dual analog super ultra mega powers for the win.
GPB was a nightmare. The day I said "fuck it, I'll buy a 360 pad just to see", is the day I really started to enjoy GPB. The thrustcrapper has reached the trash can immediately.

I used my Dad's old circa 1999 Gravis "terminator" analogue pad last year on his old dual boot windows 98/windows xp  pc. It's pretty good to be honest. Not as good as a modern xbox 360 or PS3 pad but not a million miles away. Very good for some of the older games I would say. I suppose at the end of the day analogue joystick or thumbstick movement is still analogue movement whether through directx 6 or directx 11.

In many ways if I am honest the Microsoft controller products from those days are noticeably of much better quality than the vast majority of modern steering wheels, joypads and flight joysticks. My Microsoft Precison Racing wheel feels sturdier, better made and more responsive than any modern steering wheel and pedals combo I have tried. I also have a Microsoft Sidewinder force feedback wheel back at home and the quality of the force feedback is excellent. I think these days you have to spend a lot of money on a controller set-up, whether it be steering wheel/pedals, joypad or flight-stick, to match the quality of those earlier Microsoft products. Indeed arguably one has to purchase another modern day Microsoft product, the xbox 360 joypad controller, to be able to compete!

Microsoft's hardware products I think have always been of the highest quality.

I tried a Thrustmaster steering wheel and pedals once and returned it to the shop.. For me the quality wasn't on the same level as my decade old Microsoft Steering wheel. Nowhere near if I am honest.

I forgot to mention that gp500 also has the option for manual rider movement in addition to the steering input. In the gp500 leagues, which are still going by the way(!) (there was a gp500 BSB league championship race round Oulton Park on Wednesday night of this week to which I was invited..) , the really fast players run with manual rider movement on. Here's video to illustrate what I'm talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/v/3nECwsUKFMc

So maybe Klax has got the right idea! I think he has personally.. 

I think this illustrates what I am saying about how advanced the gp500 pc game was for it's day Max. The only motorcycle racing game that beats it even in this day and age is gpbikes. Although SBK2000/2001 was a good game. Dare I say it but the gp500 pc game still beats gpbikes in one important area. Rear wheel steering. In gp500 the physics model in terms of rear wheel steering is in my opinion much better. Amazing as that comment may sound to your ears Max.

I think in so many ways gp500 was the forerunner to gpbikes. In many ways gpbikes is what I would have imagined gp500-2 to be like..

Max, your command of English is so near perfect..I was convinced you were British. Very impressive!

As regards Paris for me it is the most beautiful city in the world. But some of the Parisians could do with a bucket of cold water being poured over their heads..not all but some of them. Apologies to any Parisians who may be present! 

France and Italy are both breathtakingly beautiful countries though. No offence to Glasgow intended!

Have fun!

"Midge"

P.S. if I was Grooveski's girlfriend the first thing I would do is buy him some socks and a new set of pyjama bottoms! Nice bloke that he is though..