Prototype gp500 physics model

[HornetMaX]

I used my Dad's old circa 1999 Gravis "terminator" analogue pad last year on his old dual boot windows 98/windows xp  pc. It's pretty good to be honest. Not as good as a modern xbox 360 or PS3 pad but not a million miles away. Very good for some of the older games I would say. I suppose at the end of the day analogue joystick or thumbstick movement is still analogue movement whether through directx 6 or directx 11.

The optical encoder used to detect the stick movements, the attached electronics and the mechanics of the joints can make a huge difference (even between modern joypads).
If you want a test, plug your old pad into your PC and use it with GPB: you'll be able to compare to the xbox pad. Could be interesting.

I forgot to mention that gp500 also has the option for manual rider movement in addition to the steering input. In the gp500 leagues, which are still going by the way(!) (there was a gp500 BSB league championship race round Oulton Park on Wednesday night of this week to which I was invited..) , the really fast players run with manual rider movement on. Here's video to illustrate what I'm talking about:

Hmmm ...  do yo know what are the controls he's using ?
Bike lean on the joypad stick, throttle/brake on the joystick vertical and rider lean on the joystick horizontal ?
Or is it rider movements on the joypad, throttle, brake and lean on the joystick ?

Dare I say it but the gp500 pc game still beats gpbikes in one important area. Rear wheel steering. In gp500 the physics model in terms of rear wheel steering is in my opinion much better.

What do you mean with "rear wheel steeering" ?

Max, your command of English is so near perfect..I was convinced you were British. Very impressive!

Cause I've only been writing, as typically I'm detected as non-british at the 2nd or 3rd syllable I pronounce.

France and Italy are both breathtakingly beautiful countries though. No offence to Glasgow intended!

For offences to Glasgow, call 555-MaX. I have plenty ready for you.

P.S. if I was Grooveski's girlfriend the first thing I would do is buy him some socks and a new set of pyjama bottoms! Nice bloke that he is though.. 

Buy him a GPB license.

MaX.

[Hawk]

Rear wheel steering: I'm sure Tracey is talking about power sliding the rear wheel which in effect is rear wheel steering. It is very difficult to get a powerslide in GPB if at all totally with use of throttle power only. Not in my experience anyway. 

Hawk.

PS: Maybe we should try building track surfaces with TRKBASPH instead of TRKASPH. We get some good power slides then. Hehe 

[girlracerTracey]

The optical encoder used to detect the stick movements, the attached electronics and the mechanics of the joints can make a huge difference (even between modern joypads).
If you want a test, plug your old pad into your PC and use it with GPB: you'll be able to compare to the xbox pad. Could be interesting.

Unfortunately I don't think I can use the gravis joypad with my modern gaming pc that runs windows 7. The gravis joypad runs an old style "game port" connection (a DA-15 connector I think it is called) which is built into the rear panel of the old style sound cards. From windows xp onwards I don't think you can run these connections unless you use an adaptor of some sort. All my other older peripherals, including my Microsoft sidewinder wheels run USB connectors.

I don't think the gravis pad would be as good or as precise as the xbox 360 joypad controller though in any case. I think the modern xbox pads are arguably the best joypads to use in gpbikes and gp500. They feel really good to me although I know a lot of people really like the ps3 pads in combination with the motion-in-joy software. I think they are both extremely good options. I have a ps3 joypad also and I really like it a lot I have to say. The two are very close I think. Arguably the ps3 with the motion-in-joy software is the more versatile of the two options as it gives you more controller configuration options that you can adapt to any game. The steering wheel & pedals option does provide formidable opposition to the use of a joypad in gpbikes though I think. There are plus and minuses with both these alternatives I think. Having now tried both these controller options in gpbikes..
[/quote]

Hmmm ...  do yo know what are the controls he's using ?
Bike lean on the joypad stick, throttle/brake on the joystick vertical and rider lean on the joystick horizontal ?
Or is it rider movements on the joypad, throttle, brake and lean on the joystick ?

Grooveski says the following:

"Aye, rider control on the pad and I've been messing with the back brake on the left trigger(using XBCD to remap the trigger to an analogue axis that the game recognises) - then you can do Moto2-style backing into corners... ...but I fall off more often. More practice required still."

More than that I cannot say. But I could maybe ask him for more details if anyone is interested?

It seems to work quite nicely though. He's certainly a very fast rider on gp500 that is for sure. Particularly round Dundrod!

What do you mean with "rear wheel steeering" ?

The rear wheel steering technique that all real life racers use to varying degrees and extents depending upon the bike, the circuit and I suppose the particular era of racing that we are talking about.

So you use the power of the engine on corner exit to deliberately slide the rear wheel out in a controlled and measured manner to tighten up the corner exit trajectory. To in effect steer the bike with the rear wheel. As pioneered by Kenny Roberts Snr back in the early 1980's. I think all racers in almost all classes use this technique to an extent when they are on the track. With the old 500cc 2-strokes this technique was very much to the fore with the top riders..Rainey, Lawson, Schwantz, Gardner, Doohan and company all using this technique to achieve fast and competitive lap times. Although the likes of Nial McKenzie and the other more classic "constant radius" style riders didn't use it as much.

In the gp500 game this is an integral and important part of the required riding technique to achieve fast lap times. But you have to be careful as if you come off the power too early the rear wheel will grip and fling you over the handlerbars in a classic "high-side" crash. So it is a challenging technique to perfect in the game. Reflecting real life.

Having sorted out my direct lean woes out to my satisfaction the only thing remaining for me for gpbikes to be near to perfect in its physics is for more usable ability to power slide (i.e. rear wheel steer) to be built into the physics of the "game". At the moment in gpbikes the transition from the rear wheel not spinning to be spinning is in my opinion too abrupt and severe. Particularly so on the 500cc bikes. It doesn't seem as controllable as it should be. I think Ivolution and JamoZ probably agree with me in this respect. I think it was JamoZ who replied to one of my earlier posts commenting on this aspect.

If a slightly more reliable and accessible effect in this respect could be built into the physics of the "game" I think gpbikes would be close to being perfect.

BOBR6 encourages me to try harder as this does produce some power slides..but for me, whilst it should remain a very challenging technique to master, the physics in gpbikes in this respect ideally should be reworked to allow a little bit more flexibility in this respect.

Again just my opinion. But I think others may share this view also..

   

Buy him a GPB license.
MaX.

As much as that is a very good idea..the socks might have to come first I think! lol  Sorry Grooveski! 

grT

[girlracerTracey]

"Mick Doohan NSR 500 powerslide / rear wheel steering"

This is arguably an extreme example of the art but I think it does illustrate what I am trying to describe.

https://www.youtube.com/v/Bs0Kg-niVk8

https://www.youtube.com/v/JXQlDN4knx4



grT

[HornetMaX]

Grooveski says the following:

"Aye, rider control on the pad and I've been messing with the back brake on the left trigger(using XBCD to remap the trigger to an analogue axis that the game recognises)

Hmm ... then there's some stuff that definitely hurts my eyes: at 0.12s for example, he's on a straight, he moves very noticeably the joystick left/right but nothing seems to happen on the bike.
The left/right movements of the joystick appear on the bike waaay later, huge delay there (that could explain why flicking t left/right quickly has no effect).
Go at 0:54s: he's in a left-hander. As soon he goes out of the turn he pushes the stick to the right for the next right hander (0:58s) but the bike leans right only 1.5 seconds after that.
Just focus your eyes on the bike and keep the stick in your peripheral view. It helps if you look at slow-motion (with VLC or similar).

Also, he's absolutely rude with the brakes: look from 0:15s ... at 0.18s he just bangs the stick fully back ... you do this in GPB you fly forward.

It's a bit hard to judge from this video, but I'd tend to think that gp500 is much more permissive in therms of required input smoothness compared to GPB.
It seems to be on (Direct Lean OFF) ^ 10.

That's not to say it's wrong or something. But it's very different, as far as I can see.

It would be nice to give that guy GPB (with the very same controller config he's using for gp500) and have his thoughts on GPB, with and without direct lean.
But we'already done this experiment, with you as lab rat so I just expect the same reaction from him.

If a slightly more reliable and accessible effect in this respect could be built into the physics of the "game" I think gpbikes would be close to being perfect.

Hmmm ... that's another eternal debate. How many rider in the world can powerslide the way you see the big guys doing it ? A few (at a given time).
How many GPB riders do you want to be able to powerslide ? Hmm ...

To me the difficulty of sliding in GPB comes from the fact that without adequate feedback on what the bike (and the rear tire in particular) is doing, you have no chance to control the slide properly, hence you fall. ame way you'll probably never been able to do that in GPB:

https://www.youtube.com/v/quoYHbgF6KY

To solve this, you'd have to make a compromise with real physics in order to allow people to slide around. Could be fun, but this kind of compromise does not seem to be Piboso style (at least from what we've heard from him on other requests n which similar trade-offs would have been necessary).

If we had the necessary information on the tire model, it would be in principle possible to tweak the tires to be "more forgiving" (to slide and re-grip more progressively), but 1st I'm not sure we gonna get this info on the tire model and 2nd I'm not even sure the more progressive tire will help that much. The lack of feedback is just too important.

MaX.

[C21]

Regarding to rear wheel power steering i have to agree with Tracey.
That´s a crucial part in riding "beasts" fast and it was a pleasure to play with this one in GP500.
Unfortunatly it is not really possible to to this in GPB right now, no roblem for the 125cc and 250cc or the 600cc, they did powerslide not or not much in reality but in terms of the 500cc or WSBK there is something missing 

Having sorted out my direct lean woes out to my satisfaction the only thing remaining for me for gpbikes to be near to perfect in its physics is for more usable ability to power slide (i.e. rear wheel steer) to be built into the physics of the "game"

100% agree
@Piboso, could you please reduce the ability to take wheelies (jumping front like a wild horse) and implement the power slide feature? 

You can take powerslides if you open the throttle early and hard BUT conrolling them is nearly impossible.

[C21]

If we had the necessary information on the tire model, it would be in principle possible to tweak the tires to be "more forgiving" (to slide and re-grip more progressively), but 1st I'm not sure we gonna get this info on the tire model and 2nd I'm not even sure the more progressive tire will help that much. The lack of feedback is just too important.

The lack of feedback is the most important thing and imho the most difficult thing to simulate.
I tried a few things with the tyre model but i could not get the ones to slide and regrip properly.....maybe i should do a new test (when i found some time) because it was a while ago i did this test.....hmm.....

[HornetMaX]

The lack of feedback is the most important thing and imho the most difficult thing to simulate.

To me it's not difficult, it's just not possible.

I tried a few things with the tyre model but i could not get the ones to slide and regrip properly.....maybe i should do a new test (when i found some time) because it was a while ago i did this test.....hmm.....

Do you have any info on the tire model ? I asked Piboso a while ago but never got a reply (not sure if intentionally or if he just missed the request).
Have you managed to understand the first 30 lines of the .tyre file and the compound section ?

MaX.

[JamoZ]

I agree on the 500, but take the 990 out and put TC on 3, then ride it like you stole it...voila, powersliding. It can be done if something prevents the rear wheel from stepping out, something we don't have and honestly don't want on the 500.

[Klax75]

Power Slides, with DTS, you can do it. I've done it several times. But it only last about a second or less. If you look very closely in some of the videos I've posted you'll see the back end of the bike kick out on me. It's helped me make a lot of those turns. From helmet view it looks kind of like, I am under steering then the back kicks out, now I am aligned with the turn again. I've had it happen a lot, just about everytime I do DTS. Controlling it on demand when every I want it is a lot more tricky. Where in MotoGP / Moto2 you see the back kick out when braking in a turn a lot. I have done that in DTS so far, but I am still relearning my braking points and how hard and how for I can lean while braking and still make the turn.

During a turn the back kicking out happens a lot in DTS, but happens very quickly. When I first started using it seriously, 80% or so of my falls were because I was losing the back end in a turn, not from falling over from leaning to much.

[BOBR6 84]

well iv done some epic power slides on gpb's 

ok i agree they're not easy or very controllable but if it was implemented into gpb's it would be a disaster imo! i find it hard enough to get the purchase from the track already.. if the bike slides in a controlled manner everytime you lose traction it would get boring just like motogp13..

think about it.. it doesnt happen on the first lap! an not on every corner..

another point.. try sliding with traction control ON!! it works..

[HornetMaX]

if the bike slides in a controlled manner everytime you lose traction it would get boring just like motogp13..

What that man said, +1.

Power Slides, with DTS, you can do it.

You can even without, but its hard to control and with DTS (shouldn't it be DST ?) it's surely even harder.

By the way with the 500 it should be even harder due to the engine response curve (you love these 2 strokes right ? have fun then !).

MaX.

[Klax75]

if the bike slides in a controlled manner everytime you lose traction it would get boring just like motogp13..

What that man said, +1.

Power Slides, with DTS, you can do it.

You can even without, but its hard to control and with DTS (shouldn't it be DST ?) it's surely even harder.

By the way with the 500 it should be even harder due to the engine response curve (you love these 2 strokes right ? have fun then !).

MaX.

Yep DST. Haven't been to bed yet. lol. I've been practicing with all the bikes with DST.

[girlracerTracey]

Hmmm ... that's another eternal debate. How many rider in the world can powerslide the way you see the big guys doing it ? A few (at a given time).
How many GPB riders do you want to be able to powerslide ? Hmm ...

I have to be somewhere shortly so this will have to be brief..

I think the truth is that all experienced racers in real life possess the ability to an extent to powerslide and rear wheel steer. It goes with the territory. In many ways if you aren't able to do this you are arguably on a race track more to have fun rather than to be ultra competitive and win races..

To an extent and to a degree powersliding and rear wheel steering is an integral part of the skills required to get a racing motorcycle round a race track at a competitive pace and lap time. I think all racers indulge in this facet of racing technique to an extent. It is part and parcel of the skill of racing motorcycles many might argue. In saying that I am not talking about lurid powerslides at 160 miles an hour but I am talking about the technique required in exiting a bend hard on the power and driving it out to the edge of the track on the following straight. It can and is also used to a degree in between consecutive bends to help position and line up the motorcycle for the next bend. On the right track, on the right bike, at the right time through an appropriate series of bends..

My father, who is no longer with us, was quite an experienced club and national level racer in the U.K. back in the 1980's. He professed to having used rear wheel steering, to a degree and to an extent, in most of the races he took part in. On a hot day he even reckoned he managed to powerslide a 350cc production racer a bit on the exit to certain bends. He reckoned he powerslided his gpz900 production racer quite a bit also. But we are talking about degrees and extents of powersliding here. Not a Kevin Schwantz powerslide on the RGV at Suzuka..

My father tried out gpbikes, in an earlier beta, and absolutely loved it. With one small reservation..he felt he could not powerslide and rear wheel steer in the simulation like he felt he should be able to. Again I think he would have gravitated to the 500cc bikes in gpbikes because he loved them so much. So maybe this is why he had this feeling?

Also talking about PiBoSo's adherence to real life physics and his wish not to dumb down the physics in gpbikes to make it more playable for the casual gamer (something that I loudly applaud), frankly how many of us could lap the circuits that we have in gpbikes on a full blown race bike in real life at anything like the laptimes people are achieving on gpbikes?

My thinking on this is that gpbikes is a simulation of real life motorcycle racing and as such it is very, very good. It is exceptional. But as a simulation I do personally feel that there should be a bit more of an accessible ability to powerslide the bikes. Particularly and specifically perhaps the 500s..?

Anyway, I think this is a very interesting and worthwhile debate.

I respect everyone's opinion on this because you guys are much more experienced on the "game" than I am. But this is my honest take on things at this early stage in acclimatising to gpbikes..

And don't get me wrong I do think the quality of simulation in gpbikes is truly superb. It is brilliant in fact.

grT 

P.S. Max I think you are right about gp500..the physics in terms of controller inputs is more forgiving. I think it was designed that way for popular appeal. I agree the joystick movements are indeed like direct lean off +10. By contrast the joypad thumbstick inputs in gp500 are nice and tight as I suppose they should be. 

[girlracerTracey]

ok i agree they're not easy or very controllable but if it was implemented into gpb's it would be a disaster imo!

If it was implemented in anything approaching the ridiculous degree of powersliding ability witnessed in Milestone's motogp13/14 I would fairly rapidly give up on gpbikes Bob and return to playing gp500 full time.. 

That's not what any of us here is in anyway interested in I think.

What I would like to see is merely a slightly more controllable transition from the state of not powersliding the rear wheel to the state of sliding it..to mimic and reflect the real life scenario of powersliding. The 500cc grand prix 2-strokes powerslided on the throttle.  If Cagiva had handed Eddie Lawson a cagiva that did not powerslide controllably at the beginning of the 1991 grand prix season he would have handed the bike back to cagiva and flown back to California.. 

Also another thought here is that by 1991 all the factories, yamaha, honda, suzuki and cagiva were running "big bang" engines.
Question: Are the "varese" physics in the game definitely modeled on the power delivery of a big bang engine? I strongly suspect, knowing PiBoSo's perfectionism in all this that this is definitely the case. I am only wondering because of Max's reference to the power delivery curve of the 500s making it much more difficult to execute controllable power-slides.. Just thinking aloud really. No doubt a silly question on my part..which I have probably already answered to myself. 

grT