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It ain't pretty, but it works...

Started by davidboda46, October 08, 2014, 05:02:45 PM

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doubledragoncc

Thought a small video would show why what I call the "Southern Pendulum" steering works in relation to the bike on the screen. The camera is to the side so it looks like the bars are not aligned to the bike on screen but when sitting infront of the screen they are.

http://www.youtube.com/v/UxzmxQMfJPk

This is an old video but show what I mean by body, arm and wrist posture to the bars and body movement to the bike on screel. Sorry but this was made early in the morning after quite a lot of beers lol

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girlracerTracey

Thumbs up in appreciation from me.

That looks really well executed and engineered I have to say.

David's version is like a mk1 in some ways.

Good on you guys!

What next? A leaning mechanism for the rider I guess but that's when it becomes really complicated I would imagine.

grT


doubledragoncc

October 16, 2014, 11:11:47 AM #17 Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 11:22:34 AM by doubledragoncc
TY grT.

I have designed and part tested a motion system but there are movements that are very hard to simulate without being very expensive.  The hardest movement is where on a real bike you are powersliding the bike, man it would be so cool to do it. I can build a relatively cheap system to do this but the biggest problem still lies in the software at the moment. Because ALL bike games are mainly written with the knowledge that everyone will mainly use a gamepad to play the game/sim, the amount of movement of a thumbstick or trigger is VERY small, making it very sensitive. Now look at the amount of movement and the different ways the movement of a bikes handlebars are and it starts to make it even more sensitive. This is why David had to limit his steering movement by chains. On the G27 you could do it in the software and control the motors for FFB to limit them to 40 degrees either way which was the right amount for a G27. The problem is you are still moving the Wheel or in my case the bars far more than you would on a real bike in order to keep the controller from not being over sensitive. So no matter how much you design and spend on a bike steering system, because you are not on a real bike you do not have the forces involved with mother nature because you are not actually moving, so no gyroscopic or gravity effects are present. I will keep trying but dang its hard to get it right.

Your ideas in design are similar David, only you use other systems parts to build and that makes it harder for you to get everything working as you want them to. I would suggest that you look at making a lot more part yourself, I dont want to give all of my designs away as it is actually my business and how I get to eat, but will give some pointers as to how you can make your system better.

One of the most important things is to have the bars act more like a real bikes with your body. This is why I use the "Southern Pendulum" system. The correct distance for the handlebars below the pivot point is ca 7inches or 170mm. the "FACE" as grT puts it should be about 13 degrees from the horizontal with the pivot point being furthest away from you. The bars should be placed like on a real bike away from you so that your arms are at ca 40 degrees from the vertical with only a slight bend at the elbows to allow for freedom of movement. This will make your whole back move with the bars keeping your arms and wrists at a natural riding posture. I know many will say this is not how a real bikes steering works as this is on a more vertical axis than a horizontal one that a real bike uses, but you are NOT on a real bike. Believe me this is the only way you will ever be able to have the right amount of control using real bars. David try to use a straighter set of bars that are no more than 30 inches wide with only slight bends at the end sections. I find actual 7/8"/22mm Dragbars which you can get new for $15 are just right, but bicycle bars will do.

If you dont have a force feedback (FFB) wheel the cheapest way to have a centering/return spring action is with a bungee cord like you use to tie shit to the back of your bike. I will try and make a few designs and post them. I used this on my first car steering system I made in 1989!!! and it worked pretty good.

Try and design more out of wood to start with as it is cheap and easy to do. I did the same as you back in 1983 for shifting by making wooden pedals for up/down shifting but with buttons using the original Atari joystick(yep Im that old i was 20 then lol)

I will make a few designs and post them for anyone to use to make cheap controls. I strongly advise everyone wanting to do it to invest in a control board from LEO BODNAR the BU0836X is the best and all are fully USB plug and play. heres his link

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/

Another point is the potentiometers, they should be Linear 10K pots, not audio pots. 10 K works best I spent a lot testing all others and they just wont give the right amount of control.

Always make sure you use return springs for all controls and try to use expansion springs and not compression springs if possible. This is important for actual real feel in the control and not just to return the pot to 0. I will try to give a list of spring pressure later.

I hope I have helped explain a few things to help others make their own systems and maybe I will have a DIY section in my new website and link it here.

Okay end of lesson one lol. I will try to get shit done and post later on.

Have fun inventing stuff, its how shit happens man.

DD



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Siddharta

November 02, 2014, 11:39:18 PM #18 Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 11:41:38 PM by Siddharta
 ;D Folks, you are great.
Looking at all this DIY things i remember a gambling hall with this motorcycle race pits.
The Software was crap, but the pit was perfect: Rider leaning was controled moving the hole bike pit sitting on.
Leaning was controlled with real bars, without FFB but the stearing was invertet (much more realistic).
Now imagine putting the hole pit on a 3DOF Motion Plattform plus FFB and you´re rock&roll!!! :-D

doubledragoncc

@SIDD

You said it m8. I a working on a full motion system but it aint easy. The hardest thing is to simulate when you slide the back end out as the physics and motion involved take a lot of engineering to make it work, it takes some powerful motors with the speed required to make it work right. Its a lot of work but its going to be the tits when l can get it to work.

I am trying to make a modular component system that will let anyone build a rig and not have to worry about the fine mechanics. I think people will enjoy a rig they build themselves more as it is a personal thing to ride your own bike in real life.

I love the way you guys are at least trying to do something instead of just bitching that there are no controls for bike out there. Good on you all.

The future has a few surprises coming!!!

DD
GPBOC Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/c/IASystemsComputerControls; i7 7700 4.8GHz z270 ASUS Maximus Code Mobo 16GB 3866MHz DDR4 RAM ASUS Strix RTX2070 OC 8GB DDR6 Kraken X62 AIO Cooler ROG Thor 850w PSU in ROG Helios Tower Case.
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teeds

Would be great to see a rig that can do this to you when you do a virtual high-side, within a padded room of course lol


doubledragoncc

l can make a rig do that but you will have to sign a waver so you cant sue me lol. What you smokin teeds lol
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teeds

Most impressive to hear that you could DD.

So how's your rig holding up davidboda?

davidboda46

Quote from: teeds on November 07, 2014, 11:54:32 AM
So how's your rig holding up davidboda?

It's still alive... needs some small repairs from time to time... :) Wish I had the means/skills to do something more proper like you have... :)
"THE EDGE... THERE IS NO HONEST WAY TO EXPLAIN IT BECAUSE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO REALLY KNOW WHERE IT IS ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE GONE OVER"

teeds

Improve and upgrade as you find out what doesn't last  :)

Just had another look at your video and thought you were using DST as you turn the bars opposite to direction, but looking closer you're holding the lean, does that feel intuitive? It looks like you're having no problem getting around the track but i've not considered this configuration while looking at cannibalising my G25 wheel to do something similar to what you have. How does the FFB feel?

davidboda46

Quote from: teeds on November 11, 2014, 12:13:05 PM
Improve and upgrade as you find out what doesn't last  :)

Just had another look at your video and thought you were using DST as you turn the bars opposite to direction, but looking closer you're holding the lean, does that feel intuitive? It looks like you're having no problem getting around the track but i've not considered this configuration while looking at cannibalising my G25 wheel to do something similar to what you have. How does the FFB feel?

The FFB is actually both a positive and a negative thing. The road effects translate into the wheel and then the wheels movement translates back to the bikes behavior (if that makes any sense to you?), so the bike becomes a bit more sensitive and twitchy to ride when the surface is a bit uneven, or when you have wheelies. But it also helps to feel the bumps and it that way it can actually make it easier to ride. The effects are unfortunately only noticeable on the front, so you don't get any indication of when the rear starts sliding, which is a shame cause that's what I'm missing, more feeling with the rear would make it easier to powerslide or to set up the entry into the corner with the use of the rear brake and the engine brake (kid skidding). I always ride in helmet view so I have no visual indications of what the rear is doing.
http://www.youtube.com/v/9aK2LBnTT2s

 
"THE EDGE... THERE IS NO HONEST WAY TO EXPLAIN IT BECAUSE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO REALLY KNOW WHERE IT IS ARE THE ONES WHO HAVE GONE OVER"

doubledragoncc

Hi guys, I dont think that FFB is right for real handlebar controls right now. You have to think about all the controllers it is written for, none have handlebars and the FFB is only for the front if you think about it. AS david said, you cant feel the back slide out, I have been thinking a lot about this and have a few ideas, but in the end the FFB coding would have to be re-written to have an output to represent the rear of the bike, you can only get that output if you have a system that the seating area of the system would move sideways in a slide. I got some cool designs for it but its expensive to do, will try it when l get rich lol. You also have to think of the physical forces an FFB motor would have to deal with. If you try using your G25/27 steering l think you would burn the motors out quickly as unlike a cars steering wheel which only spins and has no real weight to fight it, if it has to push against the weight of you pushing on the bars as you are leaning on them it will get one big kick in its motors ass. Try it by all means but I thought I should let you know I experimented and it just wont work right and for long. To have FFB feel like the bars "wobbling" you would need a horizontal pivot under the steering unit and that would still need to be very strong as the physics involved are far greater than a steering wheel. Hope this helps. Keep up the great work.

DD
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doubledragoncc

Hi to davidboda46

I hope you dont mind mate but as you started a thread about real controls it seems natural to redirect posts on real controls from other posts here. This way we can all help each other.

DD
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Gibbon

Nice stuff! I'm also working on a motorbike controller  ;)
To continue  the discussion about controller and prices (see Here), in 2006 a french controller was released for a price of 2250€ (2800$)...without foot gearshift (option cost 325€)

I don't know if the controller had success...it seems a bit expensive to me compare to system complexity
Here is a pic (it's called Playbike)




Hawk

Quote from: wkp on November 13, 2014, 04:05:07 PM
Nice stuff! I'm also working on a motorbike controller  ;)
To continue  the discussion about controller and prices (see Here), in 2006 a french controller was released for a price of 2250€ (2800$)...without foot gearshift (option cost 325€)

I don't know if the controller had success...it seems a bit expensive to me compare to system complexity
Here is a pic (it's called Playbike)



Very nice! But way too expensive in my opinion for a controller.  :)

Hawk