A button to push both grips for Direct Steer with Torque [confusing title]

[cdx]

Seems like DST operates in a "one hand only" manner. You push on the left or right grip, never on both. I'm not sure if that's the case or whether there is a different model but that's how it feels. It works great for realism, except for in one case - when starting to move. In that situation it's both unrealistic and problematic.

Here's the problem in detail:

When you are set on the track almost immediately the front tyre turns left or right without any input (I'm guessing because of gravity, rider position and other factors).

The current physics model appears to work like this when standing in one place (physics, not animation) - say you have the tyre pointing left (because of gravity), you have both hands off the grips. You give input "left" from your controller to get the tyre to turn a bit towards right to the "straight ahead" position. The rider pushes the left grip and tyre swivels (turns? rotates?) towards right. As soon as you stop giving input the rider takes his hand off the grip. You either undershoot and have to repeat or you overshoot. In either case hands are off the grips and physics calculations turn the wheel fully left or fully right.
You are in the same situation as in the start, just maybe with the wheel position reversed. You start trying to give left-right-left-right input to try to make the wheel be going straight ahead and you constantly undershoot / overshoot. What the rider does is (again, physics, not animation) hands off the grips in the beginning, then left hand on the grip, push left grip forward, take left hand off the grip, put right hand on the right grip, push grip forward, take right hand off, then left starts again. There is only one directional input at a time. It's like riding using only one hand to reach both grips and only being able to push on the grips (no pulling).

Solution:

On a real bike, when you are about to start moving you use both hands to push equally on the grips (or both hands to pull equally, if that's your way). You balance the front by applying the same force on both grips.

If this is simulated the physics would be more correct and starting the bike with DST would be way easier and more realistic.

It imagine it should be a separate Push Both Grips button and work only when not moving and at very low speed.

Edit: added "confusing" to the title

[HornetMaX]

You haven't understood what Direct Steer (torque) does.

With your stick you dictate the torque applied to the bars (one hand or two hands, it doesn't really matter). Stick centerted = zero torque = hands off.

Pushing both grips (with equal force) does nothing (even in reality).

If you want to have the bars in the middle when your stick is in the middle you must use direct steer angle (directsteer=2).

MaX.

[cdx]

Sorry, I guess I indeed got DST wrong.

I thought it was simulating a forward push of the hand on the grip, literally. In that case two hands pushing forward would cancel each other left to right but there would still be the cumulative push forward, which I imagined would somehow improve stability. That it would somehow counteract to a degree the forces that are making the bars and front wheel turn without any controller input.

Also, when starting a bike from a stop, I didn't consider that the hands act a lot more like springs rather than pushing with equal force. They push equally if the grips are equally far from the rider but if the left grip comes slightly closer then the push on it increases and it balances itself again. It's so automatic that I didn't think of it.

That said, the whole idea of the suggestion was to make the bars and wheel to be pointing forward (through a button or an assist). It is an automatic thing in real life and near impossible in GP Bikes with DST due to the controls.

Should I put that in a new topic or should I maybe change the title of this one?

[HornetMaX]

Sorry, I guess I indeed got DST wrong.

I thought it was simulating a forward push of the hand on the grip, literally. In that case two hands pushing forward would cancel each other left to right but there would still be the cumulative push forward, which I imagined would somehow improve stability. That it would somehow counteract to a degree the forces that are making the bars and front wheel turn without any controller input.

The above is wrong: if you push forward equally with your two hands on the bar, there's no net effect in terms of torque, so the handlebar will still rotate as soon as an external force is applied.
The only effect you'd have is pushing your torso backward.

Also, when starting a bike from a stop, I didn't consider that the hands act a lot more like springs rather than pushing with equal force. They push equally if the grips are equally far from the rider but if the left grip comes slightly closer then the push on it increases and it balances itself again. It's so automatic that I didn't think of it.

That said, the whole idea of the suggestion was to make the bars and wheel to be pointing forward (through a button or an assist). It is an automatic thing in real life and near impossible in GP Bikes with DST due to the controls.

OK, that's a bit more correct. But it's only valid when you start and you want to go straight. What about exiting the pit in Victoria ?

I still think you should give a try to direct steer angle (directsteer=2): put some deadzone because the centering of the joypad's sticks is never perfect.
Also you may want to put some low linearity (e.g. 50%) to have sensibility at low handlebar angles (large angles are used mostly at low speeds).
And you may want to inverse the steering input, i.e. push the stick right to turn the bar left, so that the bike (at "high" speed) leans right.

With that, the bike behaves as expected when starting from still (but after that leaning is very slow, there's something wrong or not tuned properly in DS angle, I may make a post for that).

Should I put that in a new topic or should I maybe change the title of this one?

No need for a new topic I guess.

MaX.

[cdx]

PiBoSo, thank you for taking care of that issue!

I don't know whether it has anything to do with these posts or it was already planned for beta 6 but I'm happy it's there, it makes it so much easier to start.

It is great that with DST the handlebars return to centred position in neutral. Spot on. Very intuitive, no button or assist, and probably implemented in a completely different way from all the wrong stuff I wrote but the end result is exactly what I was trying to get to.