Who uses Traction Control?

[Hawk]

Max: Nooo... I didn't say I was against Slipper Clutches at all. I said that they are a necessary part of a 4 stroke bike just the same as a clutch is to change gear. ie: If you didn't have a clutch then the gear change would be clunky, just as if you didn't have a slipper clutch on a 4 stroke then changing down gear into a corner would probably result in you falling flat on your arse. Both have there needs.

I'd have to say no I'm not against electronic engine brake control for the same above reasons. But if you'd have asked me: "Am I against electronic throttle control?" then I'd have to say yes because throttle control is a skill and judgment that should be totally down to a riders ability to control the bike(I'm talking here of an electronic throttle control that would stop a rider from spinning out exiting a corner or something similar).
Now do you understand what I'm getting at with electronic aids? Some have legitimate uses, most take away the riders skill and inputs in favour of computer(unskilled) inputs. That's what I think is wrong. In other words for want of a better way of putting it, and I'm way exaggerating here when I say a monkey could ride these modern bikes compared to the old classics(Remember I said I was exaggerating). 

So what's your diagnosis Doctor? Am I going to live!? Please tell me it's not terminal! Hehe.

Hawk.

[Napalm Nick]

Let me know when you both get the Belgian chocolate out eh 

[Hawk]

Let me know when you both get the Belgian chocolate out eh 

I might need more than Belgian Chocolate when Max replies.... I think the Doctor is thinking of putting me down. Hehe

An ice cold beer from the fridge I think. Lol 

Hawk.

[HornetMaX]

Max: Nooo... I didn't say I was against Slipper Clutches at all. I said that they are a necessary part of a 4 stroke bike just the same as a clutch is to change gear. ie: If you didn't have a clutch then the gear change would be clunky, just as if you didn't have a slipper clutch on a 4 stroke then changing down gear into a corner would probably result in you falling flat on your arse. Both have there needs.

That was my understanding of your position, you're not against slipper clutches (you can re-read my post above).
Of course they are not as needed as you said (as EdouardB confirmed), but that doesn't matter for the discussion.

I'd have to say no I'm not against electronic engine brake control for the same above reasons. But if you'd have asked me: "Am I against electronic throttle control?" then I'd have to say yes because throttle control is a skill and judgment that should be totally down to a riders ability to control the bike(I'm talking here of an electronic throttle control that would stop a rider from spinning out exiting a corner or something similar).
Now do you understand what I'm getting at with electronic aids? Some have legitimate uses, most take away the riders skill and inputs in favour of computer(unskilled) inputs. That's what I think is wrong. In other words for want of a better way of putting it, and I'm way exaggerating here when I say a monkey could ride these modern bikes compared to the old classics(Remember I said I was exaggerating). 

Being able to shift gears down without locking the rear is a skill, as EdouardB confirmed.

Your position is strange: you think there's skill involved in opening the throttle, hence you don't like TC, but you don't think there's skill involved in using engine brake and downshifting appropriately, hence you're not against slipper clutch nor electronic engine brake.

Slipper clutch and electronic engine brakes are both "aids" (as you like to call that stuff). They make the life of the rider simpler.
A steering damper is another example of aid (and it can be mechanical or electronic). The list is long, trust me.

So what's your diagnosis Doctor? Am I going to live!? Please tell me it's not terminal! Hehe.

Diagnosis is: severe electronic-phobia coupled with a bit of misunderstanding of what MotoGp is and a bit of confusion about skill, balls etc.

It can't be treated, or at least I can't help you it seems. You'll live for a while, then you'll die.

Most likely not because of that specific disease, unless too much electronics will make you commit suicide (which is unlikely, because today's races, no matter what, are still plenty of fun to watch).

Now, let's talk about the fees for my services ... I doubt NHS can cover that, buy PayPal is OK to me

Let me know when you both get the Belgian chocolate out eh 

I'm under the impression that Hawk will get the chocolate only if you can certify that no electronics was involved in the production of that chocolate and that no aid has been used by the Maitre Chocolatier 

MaX.

[Hawk]

All fee's should be directed to my team Boss. I'm sure he'll be happy to oblige as and when you can cure me of my "Classic" romanticism .    

Hawk.

[Vini]

TC or not, I think we can all agree that the amount of electronics they use in MotoGP nowadays is ridiculous.
You almost can't hear the individual downshifting on the Honda and they don't even have to use the clutch anymore.

TC needs many laps to set up so theres no doubt the riders are capable.. Go as fast as you can and then fine tune the TC to give you that bit extra..

On the exit of a corner, if you can set the TC to give you a perfect amount of traction and drive with 100% throttle and no need to feather it on... Who would say no to that? Lol

Don't know, in my opinion it's more fun to tweak your throttle control rather than your TC settings.

[HornetMaX]

TC or not, I think we can all agree that the amount of electronics they use in MotoGP nowadays is ridiculous.

I wouldn't say ridiculous, but there are things even me I dislike.
#1 on the list: any system that is aware of where on the track the bike is, in order to adapt any sort of bike parameters. This one is pure madness.

MaX.

[Boerenlater]

TC or not, I think we can all agree that the amount of electronics they use in MotoGP nowadays is ridiculous.
You almost can't hear the individual downshifting on the Honda and they don't even have to use the clutch anymore.

TC needs many laps to set up so theres no doubt the riders are capable.. Go as fast as you can and then fine tune the TC to give you that bit extra..

On the exit of a corner, if you can set the TC to give you a perfect amount of traction and drive with 100% throttle and no need to feather it on... Who would say no to that? Lol

Don't know, in my opinion it's more fun to tweak your throttle control rather than your TC settings.

It's becoming like Formula 1, where the car is way more important than the driver.

[BOBR6 84]

I did the Ron haslam race school with a few mates a while back (when they moved to silverstone) all there CBR600's have ABS... first time I rode a bike with ABS and I can honestly say that its incredible!! lol.

Bikes become easier and safer to ride which means you can go even faster....

[Klax75]

All fee's should be directed to my team Boss. I'm sure he'll be happy to oblige as and when you can cure me of my "Classic" romanticism .    

Hawk.

Pfft, I'm not getting in to this. lol

[Hawk]

All fee's should be directed to my team Boss. I'm sure he'll be happy to oblige as and when you can cure me of my "Classic" romanticism .    

Hawk.

Pfft, I'm not getting in to this. lol

Lolz! 

Don't worry Klax.... Max will never cure my "Classic" illness. Your wallet is safe with me. 

Hawk.

[EdouardB]

So I said I would try a 2015 Yamaha R1 at a Yamaha event yesterday and give a feedback about Traction Control and how smooth/ brutal it can be compared to GP bikes traction control.

So first of all Yamaha France let me try the 2015 yamaha R1. I set the traction control to level 2 (out of 9 levels, so not very restrictive but enough to try), Slide Control to 2 out of 3.

Just before jumping on the bike the guy tells me it's actually the 106bhp French restricted version (bikes are restricted to 106bhp here, most people remove the limitation though, and at the racetrack everyone does - the restriction will be gone in 2016 after more than 20 years of stupidity???).
So I'm thinking this is stupid but hey, I'll try to look at the electronics and the chassis.

I could talk about the chassis in a different topic but here's my thought about the electronics.
After warming up the tyres I deliberately put my faith in the electronics and gave it a hard acceleration with a big lean angle. The rear only slided about 2cm maybe(?) before gripping again in a very smooth way. It was as if someone else took control of the throttle in a super smooth way. I was very surprised. The electronics were incredibly smooth, much much smoother than in GP bikes.
I wish I could have tried the 199bhp version but didn't get the chance. Overall I was frustrated with the bike, it didn't have enough power and just felt very limited. Over 8kRPM the bike basically kept the same acceleration all the way to 13.

After the ride I thanked the Yamaha guy (thanks Antoine) and he started trusting me I guess because after I told him I was frustrated by how slow the engine was, he pointed at a bike and said "you can try that one if you want". I took a look and the bike was a 2012 or 2013 yamaha R1 with full race body work and race tyres. I'm thinking this could be fun so I say yes of course (Part 1/2)

[EdouardB]

Now, I go get a closer look at the bike and I notice the radiator is huge, and I see lots of race details - I look at the dashboard, and now I realize this could be really good - I see a pit-lane limiter, stickers everywhere with switches for the maps and everything, no key, I'm thinking this is no standard bike so I ask what bike it is. Basically the bike was used for the French National Superbike championship a few years ago, is heavily prepared, 200bhp, lightened, lots of YEC parts etc.

So I went on the track for a full 20 min session on it and as soon as I accelerated I was like "holy f***" this bike accelerates so much harder than any standard R1 I've ever tried.

I set the TCS on 3 out of 6 levels (with the race TCS) to get a feel for how it works.

Basically the TCS was more brutal than the 2015 yamaha R1. But what was bad was the anti-wheelie part of the TCS. Almost as brutal as in GP bikes. It kept going TATATATATATA for the whole straight.
In fact sometimes my visor hit the windscreen a few times because of the ignition cut.
It was a handful because the bike was always on the limit of wheeling, with the front going a bit up, then down then up then down etc... Up until about 5th gear (the gearing was pretty short).
The shifter was pretty smooth though, but the 2015 yamaha R1 had a smoother one.

The acceleration itself was insane but honestly it got very physical although I do train a lot - after a while I thought "this is incredible fun but I don't know how long I can keep this pace without wearing myself out for the day".

(Also the front of the bike did move a lot because of the constant wheeling but much less than in GP bike.)

Overall I think that in GP bikes the electronics correspond to what was used maybe 5 years ago in competition. Now it's much smoother, including on a stock bike (the 2015 model). In fact I heard David Checa say that he likes the 2015 stock electronics better than the factory one he had last year... So they kept it on some of the WEC bikes for now.

I hope this helps a bit but I don't know what to say but shoot some questions if you want

[HornetMaX]

So first of all Yamaha France let me try the 2015 yamaha R1. I set the traction control to level 2 (out of 9 levels, so not very restrictive but enough to try), Slide Control to 2 out of 3.

So difference #1: GPB has TC, that bike had TC and slide control. That's already a big big difference.

(bikes are restricted to 106bhp here, most people remove the limitation though, and at the racetrack everyone does - the restriction will be gone in 2016 after more than 20 years of stupidity???).

Vive la France ! Liberte, Egalite, Exceptionfrancaisite !

I could talk about the chassis in a different topic but here's my thought about the electronics.
The electronics were incredibly smooth, much much smoother than in GP bikes.

I've always had the impression that judging from the outside (i.e. the parameters that define the TC behavior), the implementation of TC, AW and EB in GPB seems very basic.

After the ride I thanked the Yamaha guy (thanks Antoine) and he started trusting me I guess because after I told him I was frustrated by how slow the engine was, he pointed at a bike and said "you can try that one if you want". I took a look and the bike was a 2012 or 2013 yamaha R1 with full race body work and race tyres.

He just wanted you weren't a prankster

I set the TCS on 3 out of 6 levels (with the race TCS) to get a feel for how it works.

No slide control on that bike then.

Overall I think that in GP bikes the electronics correspond to what was used maybe 5 years ago in competition.

Electronics and software: this stuff evolves quickly I know I know, some won't like it ...

MaX.

[EdouardB]

Here are further details max:

- The stock 2015 yamaha R1 has Traction Control, Slide Control, and Lift control for wheelies (mine was set to 1, but when you have only 106bhp it's hard to make it work a lot). The electronics uses a gyro on top of speed measurements of each wheel and RPM measurement. The gyro is what makes it a lot more sensitive and makes it able to differentiate all those things.

- On the FSBK 2012/2013 yamaha R1 the Traction Control also acted as a Lift control and a Slide Control. This is because there is no gyro so the only measurement the bike has is the wheel speeds and the RPM fluctuation. If the rear wheel goes faster than the front, it cuts the engine for a split second. So of course it cuts it in traction or wheelie as it's percieved the same way.
Having said that, the FSBK bike really felt like the ignition cut was smoother with a big lean angle than it was with the wheelie so I'm thinking that the RPM measurement actually allows for some differentiation of the two phenomenons in some way.