Direct lean setting and bike physics... Help

[Vini]

For 150%, the virtual rider would have to be able to look into the future
Or my understanding of how the VR works is completely off.

[doubledragoncc]

Yes but I would still like a bit more control!!!

DD

[Vini]

you won't get more control as long as you are using the virtual rider, there's nothing PiBoSo can do about that.

direct-steer is the only way to have absolute control, which sadly doesn't work with your (single-axis) handlebar controller.

[HornetMaX]

An input filter to which parameter?

Target lean angle, probably interpreted as -1..0..1, where 0 is zero and +/-1 are the max lean angles the virtual riders thinks are OK for the current conditions (e.g. tyre status, surface type etc).

You need low direct lean only if you unintentionally apply large changes too quickly, which can happen if you're not gentle enough and/or if your input device is too sensitive for your own "skill" (note the quotes, I'm not implying anything here).

If the combo "you + your input device" can be gentle, then you can use high direct lean, else you should lower it.

As for details about what exactly the filter does, Piboso has always refused to detail them (and that's understandable).
As far as I can see, the filter has a totally different effect when leaning compared when picking up, so just for that, it's already non-linear in nature.
For me it's enough to say that at lower direct lean, to quickly pick the bike up to vertical it's not enough to put your stick in the middle, you'll have to overshoot it.

Example (exaggerating, for illustration): fully leaning left, go vertical quickly.
With DL = 100% ==> gently move the stick from full left to middle.
With DL = 0% ==> quickly move the stick to the middle and then some more, like half-way right; then once the bike is almost vertical, move the stick to the middle.

I've always found DL=100% more logical, but I'm sure anybody can get accustomed to whichever mode. Just pick what feels better for you and live happy.

[doubledragoncc]

No it is not for me vin. I dont get it why can people not except that I know what I want and I dont like DST, it is wrong for a real control system plain and simple.

All I need is a bit more sensitivity of what I have as it  feels REAL and not be using something because I am TOLD it will be real as it is in a book because thats how physics are.

DD

[Vini]

DD, as I wrote in the other thread, the flaw is in your controller because you are steering the bike on the "leaning"-axis, which is not how you steer a real bike.
DST is not wrong, it uses real forces.

[HornetMaX]

so the slider somehow goes from control over the lean angle change rate (0%) to control over the lean angle directly (100%).

Don't think so: if that was the case, with the bike vertical and DL = 0%, keeping the stick a bit to the right will (after some time) make you lean fully right. It's not what happens.

[Vini]

yeah just checked it, it's only like that in some cases, so the filter is a bit more complex like you said.

[doubledragoncc]

You know what vin, tell that to the hundred plus actual bike riders that have used my systems and agree it is correct and feel right and  it is not flawed in how it functions.

You have never used it so you can not say. The problem most people have is they cant look past the physics book and actually come up with a design that works as mine does.

One of the biggest problems with this forum is everyone has to over complicate everything. Sometimes you have to ignore what the textbooks say and actually use your own intelligence and come up with a solution that works without all the bullshit.

You want a system that works by the book, good luck on that without spending a shit load of money just to find out no matter what you spend it will be over sensitive and unusable. I can do it but FFS everyone wants a controller for the cost of a gamepad!!!

Before you call my system FLAWED because I use the wrong axis in your mind, its because I KNOW you can NOT use force as a steering input as it would not be controllable, I have tested enough to know, factually, not just in thinking it. So my system is not flawed, it uses the only practical means of having precise control via handlebars in a game or sim.

Sorry mate but unless you have used my system and spent years making controllers in every configuration you can think of, you might be making a statement that is not true.

DD

[Vini]

DD, don't take this as an insult to your engineering skills.
What you have created is awesome and I'm sure it feels great to use.
It's obviously the most practical solution.

I am aware that building a properly working dual-axis handlebar controller is probably quite complicated and since I'm not an engineer I can't tell you how to do it.
But what I can tell you is that you cannot expect "ultimate realism" (which can only be reached in GPB anyway) from a controller that uses the "wrong axis".

[doubledragoncc]

In your mind it is the wrong axis because you can not get passed your way of thinking and therefore refuse to listen and think about how my system is actually working.

The reality is, I use a certain axis because it is the ONLY way it can be done in EVERY game/sim. The axis I am using is NOT wrong for the function and feel it is meant for. It is for the lean angle of the bike which is on the exact axis my system is. A real bike leans on the same axis as my handlebars so how is that part of it flawed.

You are expecting to have a set of bars turn on a horizontal axis while not on a bike and NOT be moving in a totally un-natural way which is what happens when you do it that way.
The amount of movement in the handlebars when riding in real life is so minimal if you used only that amount of movement to control a bike in a game you would not make one fucking corner. I know, I have tried it!!! What part of sitting still, turning some bars 5-10 degrees on the horizontal axis represents any leaning or feeling of riding a bike except for feeling your sitting at the start line the whole bloody time.

Most of all, if my system is so fucking flawed how come every biker that uses it finds it perfectly natural to use and NEVER said it is wrong??? OH wait, they cant read a physics book and tell me its wrong....got it, Im so fucking stupid!!!

How is the lean axis the wrong axis? I want to control the lean at the end of the day or not. As long as I am controlling the bike and making it go where I want it to why should it be wrong? Oh I forgot, we have to over complicate it to call it a simulator. My bad bro.

My systems design is to not just control a bike in a game it is to enhance the feeling while staying physically natural to the user plus involve more than just sitting still turning a set of bars a bit and saying" Thats how it is on a bike so it must be right" I dont have FFB because the design utilizes a natural FFB through its movement, but its all bollocks because it is not on the axis you think it should be.

Sorry mate but you dont have a clue

DD

[Warlock]

I do think the axis is correct. Just leaning your body from side to side will make the bars countersteer naturally as it does in a real bike

[Meyer#12]

I do think the axis is correct. Just leaning your body from side to side will make the bars countersteer naturally as it does in a real bike

+ 1 on that one Warlock!

But obvioosly haven't tested it, i can't say anything about the feeling of it, but what i can see and hear from DD it have the right feeling

[doubledragoncc]

After riding for over 36 years I think I know what feels totally natural and what does not. It is not just me, this design has been tested for years on hundreds of people, most of whom not only ride but race in real life.

I have my system 2 feet in front of a 40" flatscreen and ride in first person only. What I see of the bike is the top of the yolks and the fairing. My bars need to be a bit closer to be positioned realistically but then the screen will fuck my eyes up, which it does as I have cataracts. When I ride, the bike on the screen moves as it would if I was siting on it and the angle of my handlebars matches that of the bike on screen. So............It is looking like I am on the bike, it is feeling like I am on the bike, so how is that flawed in any way???

You also have to remember, I can not build a system that ONLY works in GPB using DST because it would not work in ANY other bloody games!!!

My system is used in the technical University of Selangor, Malaysia for their studies on motorcycle behavior, why would a university use it if it was wrong?

Sorry but it gets on my tits when someone who has never built anything and never tried my system insists it is flawed. Get all your facts right before you go up against me on this.

I have never stated it is 100% perfect because I know it is not, it uses a compromise to cater for the lack of technical possibility. I am working together with a guy from Brazil on a 6DOF motion system that will get far closer to real life but there are and always will be forces of nature you can NOT simulate in a room.

DD

BIG SORRY TO H FOR THE OT BUT IT IS TO DO WITH DL USE ON BIKES IN GPB

[HornetMaX]

When I ride, the bike on the screen moves as it would if I was siting on it and the angle of my handlebars matches that of the bike on screen.

No, that's not possible. When GPB wobbles, do your bars wobble ? I guess this is what vin refers to.

Not to say your system is not good of course. As said multiple times, I do think it's clever and I have no trouble accepting the feeling using it is great.