Direct lean setting and bike physics... Help

[doubledragoncc]

Max, seriously? NO they dont wobble because I dont use FFB and thats nit picking. We are talking about the control of the bike with DL.

DD

[HornetMaX]

Max, seriously? NO they dont wobble because I dont use FFB and thats nit picking. We are talking about the control of the bike with DL.

So how can the angle of your bars match the one of the bike on screen ?
Or maybe you meant that the angle of your bars matches the lean angle of the bike ?

BTW it's not nit picking: when a bike wobbles and your handlebars do not wobble, the feeling is definitely not the same compared to a real bike.
But again, it's not a critic of your system and it's not a matter of right/wrong: your system is based on a principle and works fine.

What vin is saying is that he thinks a system based on a different principle (true steering axis with ffb + output lean axis) would give better results.
I can't say if he's right or not, but what is sure is that what he proposes tries (tries) to get even closer to reality. After that I don't know, maybe it's not doable or not practical or just bad.

[doubledragoncc]

Yes it is the lean angle of the bike because the amount of JUST the handlebars movement is so minimal and that is the whole point. In reality the HANDLEBAR horizontal movement is so fucking small it is almost useless in a controller.

Sometimes the know it all physics book readers need to step back open their minds and think!!! Not ALL things in life are right just because someone writes it in a book.

People actually discover something NEW but everyone points a finger and says its wrong because they cant get their head out of the physics book.

I think about actual movement and situations that are not written in bloody books because nobody has tried something new!

Now can we drop my system and get back to DL in GPB fully as that is what H wants to know and so do I.

Even if it is not realistic, but for control of the bike in GPB better, can the DL be increased?

DD

[HornetMaX]

DD, you're rambling. The way a bike works is written in a book because .. because it's the way it works.

The "amount of JUST the handlebars movement is so minimal", but on a real bike you can use it all right. That's the point vin is trying to make: FFB + steering via bars angle should be (in principle) closer to reality. That's all.

Increasing DL beyond 100%:  the request as is doesn't make much sense. Probably what may (may) be interesting is to have no filter at all when DL is set at 100% (or maybe just a lowpass with a fairly high cutoff frequency, just to shave the inevitable "noise" any input device has and the effect of quantization).

[doubledragoncc]

You know what?, that is the problem you REFUSE to allow me to actually know what I want and need. I dont give a flying fig what anyone else thinks because your all too bloody stubborn to listen and except that I know what I need. Are you building this or me?

Before the light bulb was invented most were like you, oh it dont exist therefore it cant be!!! Well I found something that works and requires more than a fucking gamepad does. Just because it dont work on a gamepad dont mean it wont work with another controller and if that is what it takes to simulate something then that is what it takes no matter what you THINK!!!

I could do with MORE sensitivity to make the steering even more precise thats all and if I could raise the % of DL it would be a simple thing for me with out all the over-complicated BS everyone seems to love.

So why cant I ask a question without being told I dont NEED IT!!!!

DD

[HornetMaX]

DD you're not reading what I'm writing, too bad. 2nd attempt:

Increasing DL beyond 100%:  the request as is doesn't make much sense. Probably what may (may) be interesting is to have no filter at all when DL is set at 100% (or maybe just a lowpass with a fairly high cutoff frequency, just to shave the inevitable "noise" any input device has and the effect of quantization).

I'm saying that something could be done (for your specific need). It's just that it is not as simple as saying "please allow DL to be put to 150%": that makes no sense.

[BOBR6 84]

I would like to see counter steering on a handlebar system too! Same movements as DD's rig but with some forward/back motion. So push right or left handlebar away from me 'slightly initially.. Then lean with the rig into the corner.. Would be cool man. No idea if or how it could work but that's not my job 

That is what ''I''would like and don't need to be told otherwise.. 

DD's rig looks fun and the movement ''looks'' natural in relation to the bike on the screen. Would like to try with virtual reality 

[BOBR6 84]

Didn't H build a rig with all the counter steering and force feedback etc how is that beast going?

[doubledragoncc]

BOB if you watch and think about how I am steering I do actually push left to go right.

I also made it so there is a slight amount of movement in the bars so there is horizontal feeling at the same time

DD

[Vini]

DD, visualize what your controller would be doing in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/v/fUc_vdpIzMk

Lean angle alone cannot give you feedback from the tyres.

Apart from the handlebar reacting to the front and rear wheel, a dual-axis controller could also accurately simulate gyroscopic forces, making the bike harder to steer as the speed increases.

Now, this doesn't mean that your system is "bad" or "wrong", just that in theory you could take it a step further (in GPB with DST).

[BOBR6 84]

BOB if you watch and think about how I am steering I do actually push left to go right.

I also made it so there is a slight amount of movement in the bars so there is horizontal feeling at the same time

DD

Errrm im a bit scared to carry on    I believe you DD but as GPB has DST we need a controller that takes advantage of that too! well we don't ''need'' one.. i would like one should i say.. its like steering wheels, some people are not fussed about having force feedback.. for other's it's an absolute must have!

[doubledragoncc]

I do know what you mean BOB and in fact the guy I am working with in Brazil has the motion equipment parts and has been looking into GPB. I do understand and will somehow do the movement like that, BUT not for your average home user it is too expensive and space hungry lol.

This system is ONLY for the average gamer, NOT the hardcore sim rider, maybe that is something I should have pointed out. The Hs2 is purely the start system for gaming and sims. It is for home use and not for out and out simulation.

In order to have a sim system you HAVE to be sitting on a complete system, not on the couch or desktop. It is vital that you can move your whole body in order to get certain movements and also not cause damage to muscles and tendons due to un natural body movement.

DD

[Vini]

i don't really see why simply allowing the handlebar to rotate on it's arm a few degrees (and using this axis as input) should make your system any less ergonomic.
the body movements would remain exactly the same (you said you are already doing the "countersteering motion" with your arms anyway) but you would get additional feedback and control in gpb.

of course the tricky part is to produce accurate force "feedback" on the steering axis while measuring the "input steering force".
and the handlebar arm of your system would probably have to be a big tube so that it can rotate but these are just layman thoughts

[Warlock]

Vin , this could complicate A LOT the design of the controller. It would need a whole new design for it. Don't think DD is going to give it a go 

[HornetMaX]

Vin , this could complicate A LOT the design of the controller.

+1 on that. I've been contacted by somebody that was trying to do something like that (at professional level, so cost wasn't an issue) but despite endless email I don't think he understood exactly how this could be done in principle. He had all the hardware (real frame with leaning axis, used just for output) plus steering with FFB. I suggested to go with DSA (not DST) because it would be simpler and could anyway be better than DST, but I don't think he managed to go very far, I haven't heard from him lately.