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First person simulator server

Started by Adalgood, August 20, 2017, 05:10:56 pm

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Vini

Now you are the one oversimplifying things :D

If you read the quote on quickshifters again, you should realize that the mechanical shift process itself and therefore the gearbox wear is the same...
In both cases, the power is cut to allow a clutchless upshift and that is the only thing that is going on. No other tricky algorithms, mechanisms or whatever.
Being electronically controlled simply allows you to shorten that window where you have to cut the power, leading to faster lap times.
In other words, the electronics are not optimizing the mechanical action itself in any way.
When shifting up, there are only two outcomes: Gear engaged or gear not engaged. There is no inbetween (not counting forcefully hammering in a gear without cutting power obviously).
I think you are confusing it with electronically controlled downshifts (e.g. as part of a seamless gearbox), where the engine and wheel rpm can be matched perfectly (better than a human ever could), therefore reducing clutch and/or gearbox wear.

HornetMaX

August 23, 2017, 07:38:21 pm #61 Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 07:44:38 pm by HornetMaX
Quote from: Grooveski on August 23, 2017, 04:42:55 pm
Need faster movement for throttle and brakes?  ???  I don't see why - I can flip myself over either way too easily as it is.   :P
I get it though - you tried a stick for ten minutes and didn't like it.  I've been using one for donkeys years and do like it.
I play car games with a pad set up the way you're decribing - just prefer the stick for bikes.

People are different.  ;)

P.S.

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 04:10:30 pm
To me the biggest drawback of your/Hawk's setup is that in a turn, leaning at steady angle, if you need to (front) brake or open the throttle, you will mess up your leaning. Because it's pretty hard to keep your stick at (let's say) exactly 45degrees right and move in up or down significantly (and significantly fast).


Never been an issue - ever.   ;)


Well then OK, if it fits your bill, keep on using it. I do think you're penalising yourself but that's OK.
In Hawk's case, it also prevents him from using manual clutch and rear brake. But again, it it's OK for you fine.

But question: do you think that with your joystick setup you can go from front braking to full throttle (while leaning) as quickly as you can on a real bike ?
I don't think so. I think you (and Hawk) have to be extra careful when doing this, while in real life it's not a problem. And for players on pad it's not a problem either.

I totally agree on the "people are different" thing though.

P.S.
I actually tried they joystick for more than 10min but despite the fact that it is usable and that maybe with practice you can actually use it, I still thikn it's way harder and, most of all, that it sacrifices too much (clutch, rear brake, rider lean, ....). It's good for a flight sim though :) I know Hawk is a fan :P

Hawk

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 07:38:21 pm
But question: do you think that with your joystick setup you can go from front braking to full throttle (while leaning) as quickly as you can on a real bike ?
I don't think so. I think you (and Hawk) have to be extra careful when doing this, while in real life it's not a problem. And for players on pad it's not a problem either.


It's not a problem at all for me to go from front braking to full throttle quickly if required, though I'm not sure whenever you would want to do that? Usually after entering the corner after front braking your continually and gradually feeding the throttle in throughout the corner until you hit full throttle just after exit or thereabouts.  :)

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 07:38:21 pm
P.S.
I actually tried the joystick for more than 10min but despite the fact that it is usable and that maybe with practice you can actually use it, I still think it's way harder and, most of all, that it sacrifices too much (clutch, rear brake, rider lean, ....). It's good for a flight sim though :) I know Hawk is a fan :P


Indeed I am a fan of Flight Sims..... That was a lucky guess Max! Hehe!  ;D

Yeah, I sacrifice those things but Groove doesn't.  He still operates rider lean, clutch and rear brake on a separately connected controller. ;)

Hawk

Quote from: vini97 on August 23, 2017, 07:16:58 pm
Now you are the one oversimplifying things :D

If you read the quote on quickshifters again, you should realize that the mechanical shift process itself and therefore the gearbox wear is the same...
In both cases, the power is cut to allow a clutchless upshift and that is the only thing that is going on. No other tricky algorithms, mechanisms or whatever.
Being electronically controlled simply allows you to shorten that window where you have to cut the power, leading to faster lap times.
In other words, the electronics are not optimizing the mechanical action itself in any way.
When shifting up, there are only two outcomes: Gear engaged or gear not engaged. There is no inbetween (not counting forcefully hammering in a gear without cutting power obviously).
I think you are confusing it with electronically controlled downshifts (e.g. as part of a seamless gearbox), where the engine and wheel rpm can be matched perfectly (better than a human ever could), therefore reducing clutch and/or gearbox wear.


Lol!  ;D
I disagree mate, so I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you there Vin because I can see we are looking at it from totally different points of view.  ;D 8)

The point I was trying to make was that when it's done electronically it's a perfect upshift with no stressing the gears; but when a human does it without electronics and no clutch action, a human cannot exactly time that power cut and upshift perfectly every time so that in itself causes greater stress on the gearbox in comparison.
But how you can conclude that the electronics are playing no part in optimising the mechanical gear shift I do not know? Of course the electronics are governing when the shift will occur and also the timing of that gearshift otherwise there would be no benefit of having the electronics part of it at all? The speed of the shift is simply the result of the efficiency of the electronics, but the logic rules and formula will be there in a CPU somewhere on the bike. :)



tchemi

Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 05:48:35 pm
P.S.

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 04:10:30 pm
To me the biggest drawback of your/Hawk's setup is that in a turn, leaning at steady angle, if you need to (front) brake or open the throttle, you will mess up your leaning. Because it's pretty hard to keep your stick at (let's say) exactly 45degrees right and move in up or down significantly (and significantly fast).

Never been an issue for me neither. It's works perfect for me too(lean/brake/throttle that is for me).  ;)


How can you be 100% lean AND 100% throttle at the same time ?? In my controller, if I put it top left for instance, I'm 60% to the left and 60% top. Or maybe you have squared joystick cage.
Anyway... You may be confident and feel good with this setup. Max is right. You penalise yourself. Maybe not 100% of the time but for sure, you penalise yourself in some situations.

Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 05:48:35 pm
Quote from: vini97 on August 23, 2017, 03:39:42 pm
bla bla bla


Electronic aided quickshift = Perfect every time with normal rate of wear to gearbox.
Human mechanical gearshift without clutch use on a classic bike = Inconsistent timing with the likely result of significant damage to the gearbox over the course of a race.


I agree with both of you on many thing but ! Sorry Hawk. This time I will take Vini defense.
I don't see why and how, the manual human gearshift without clutch brings more wear or damage to the gearbox (for upshift). Can you tell me what is it based on ?
I am re building old bikes and I don't see any difference in the conception of old and modern bikes gearboxes. I'm not an expert in 'classic bikes' (I don't know what you call classic bike in fact), but for me, motorcycles gearboxes have allways been non-synced "dog-cluth" (I can't find a correct translation on the web, as synced gearboxes with syncromesh also have dog-tooth in between the gears) gearbox with forks mounted on a drum selector.

Also, you  may know that for years, the first quickshift systems had a pretty big fail ratio, bigger than human fail ratio in switching gears without clutch. :/

Grooveski

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 07:38:21 pm
Well then OK, if it fits your bill, keep on using it. I do think you're penalising yourself but that's OK.
In Hawk's case, it also prevents him from using manual clutch and rear brake. But again, it it's OK for you fine.


I've missed a million roll-on spots but not because of my controller - more just because I've never been that good at any racing game and am not that fast a rider in real life either.
When I get lapped in a race I see fine well where Meyer or the likes can pull out 5 or 6 seconds a lap on me.  It's by braking later - turning in later - nailing the apex and firing it out the other side - rather than pootling through the corner as though I'm popping down the shop for smokes.

Took 10 years to drag myself up to consistant mid-pack on GP500 - no expectations of things going any better here.   :)
I've obviously tried with just the controller, I'm no quicker and tend to get myself into an over-correction cycle where I keep trying to staighten up and just....bloody....can't.  >:(

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 07:38:21 pm
But question: do you think that with your joystick setup you can go from front braking to full throttle (while leaning) as quickly as you can on a real bike ?
I don't think so. I think you (and Hawk) have to be extra careful when doing this, while in real life it's not a problem. And for players on pad it's not a problem either.


Reckon I could(but don't) slam the joystick from back to forward in less than half the time it takes to feed out the brakes and roll on the throttle - a lot less.   ???
Of course the wee-zee has FCR's, they're pretty heavy.  ;)

The real giggle is that I prefer heavy joysticks  ;D - even slower to move but not a word of a lie - I got quicker and more consistant overnight when I got the CH Combatstick(which freaked me out when it arrived - it was so heavy  :o ).
Not being able to blip the throttle and no burnouts.  That's what you want to stick to if you're trying to put folk off their joysticks, trust me.   ;)
Good luck to you.   ;D

Grooveski

Quote from: tchemi on August 23, 2017, 10:24:24 pm
How can you be 100% lean AND 100% throttle at the same time ?? In my controller, if I put it top left for instance, I'm 60% to the left and 60% top. Or maybe you have squared joystick cage.


Yeah - you get the full square with sticks.  ;)

tchemi

mhhhhhhhmmm ok ! That makes a difference ! Ok I understand now. sure it is not possible with game pad joystick but possible with plane stick. Ok I've been rude, sorry.

HornetMaX

Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 09:59:29 pm
Indeed I am a fan of Flight Sims..... That was a lucky guess Max! Hehe!  ;D

Isn't nuovaic a flight-sim guy too ? Maybe there's a pattern. Maybe you even play FPSs with a joystick :)

Anyway, if it makes your day, I guess it's surely fine.
I'd just pester you every time you ask for realistic and non sim-cade features, Mr. shift-help ;)

Warlock

August 23, 2017, 11:48:20 pm #69 Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 11:54:54 pm by Warlock
Quote from: tchemi on August 23, 2017, 10:46:29 pm
mhhhhhhhmmm ok ! That makes a difference ! Ok I understand now. sure it is not possible with game pad joystick but possible with plane stick. Ok I've been rude, sorry.


Its possible ;)
This is the one i use, square gate. No triggers though, just plain buttons on shoulders. I use 1 stick for steer-clutch and the other for front brake-throttle.
But is the only one i know with square gates, something i think is great and dont know why the hell no other pads have.
Very old model, and now not that easy to found.

Edit: sorry forgot the pic :P



BOBR6 84

I raced my old pre-injection R6 for about 3 years before fitting a quickshifter.. never used the clutch for upshifting. just quickly roll off the throttle and slip it in. but yeah if your not near the top of the rev range it spits the gear back at ya  ;D ;D i love quickshifters though.. just keep the throttle pinned, so smooth and saves bags of time down the straights, happy days  ;) 8) 

nuovaic

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 10:58:58 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 09:59:29 pm
Indeed I am a fan of Flight Sims..... That was a lucky guess Max! Hehe!  ;D

Isn't nuovaic a flight-sim guy too ? Maybe there's a pattern. Maybe you even play FPSs with a joystick :)

Anyway, if it makes your day, I guess it's surely fine.
I'd just pester you every time you ask for realistic and non sim-cade features, Mr. shift-help ;)


No. I dont use flight sims. No pattern. And no need for this. Just accept the fact the some people like and use joysticks. Let it go.

Hawk

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 10:58:58 pm
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 09:59:29 pm
Indeed I am a fan of Flight Sims..... That was a lucky guess Max! Hehe!  ;D

Isn't nuovaic a flight-sim guy too ? Maybe there's a pattern. Maybe you even play FPSs with a joystick :)

Anyway, if it makes your day, I guess it's surely fine.
I'd just pester you every time you ask for realistic and non sim-cade features, Mr. shift-help ;)


FPS with a Joystick? I don't think so. Lol!  ;D
I rarely play FPS's as such at all nowadays..... I used to like them, but nowadays they just release the same old format over and over again with no depth and nothing really different, so I tend not to play them anymore..... I'm more of an Assassins Creed, Batman Arkham City type fan(Keyboard or xbox controller on PC); those games have a bit more depth to them. But simulations are really my thing; I like realism as much as possible where I can get it.

It's only the flight simulations and GPB that I use the joystick/throttle assembly for.  ;)


poumpouny

Play ARMA3 if you want to combine simulation and FPS  ;).

Unconsciently, everytime i create a server, i always tick "no aid" and "force cockpit view" and most of the time there are 3 or 4 people joining. Due to the fact that i'm always searching for hardcore sim (i play Assetto corsa for cars, GP Bikes for motorcycle and ARMA for FPS  ;D) I just don't want to play gpbikes with gamepad, nor joystick. In my opinion,it need to be played with a Wheel or with a dedicated controller (HS2 or my mad max handmade one  ;D). But it's just my opinion, everyone do what they want off course ! Recently i'm not joining any online server because i'm still learnig DST offline  :o but i would love to race with some mate with DST/DSA just to see if i need to continue this way or accept that DST is not for me hihihihih  ;D no matter how much i love hardcore sim hahaha

Hawk

Quote from: poumpouny on August 24, 2017, 09:18:32 am
Play ARMA3 if you want to combine simulation and FPS  ;).

Unconsciently, everytime i create a server, i always tick "no aid" and "force cockpit view" and most of the time there are 3 or 4 people joining. Due to the fact that i'm always searching for hardcore sim (i play Assetto corsa for cars, GP Bikes for motorcycle and ARMA for FPS  ;D) I just don't want to play gpbikes with gamepad, nor joystick. In my opinion,it need to be played with a Wheel or with a dedicated controller (HS2 or my mad max handmade one  ;D). But it's just my opinion, everyone do what they want off course ! Recently i'm not joining any online server because i'm still learnig DST offline  :o but i would love to race with some mate with DST/DSA just to see if i need to continue this way or accept that DST is not for me hihihihih  ;D no matter how much i love hardcore sim hahaha


I do consider Arma 3 as the ultimate military combat sim and I do like it a lot, but it's like most sims that have depth and realism, it's finding the time not only to play them but the time involved in learning everything that goes with an in-depth realistic simulation to play them well. Lol!  ;D

If you want a DST team mate then I suggest you PM Klax75... He's the only other guy here that has learned how to ride using DST and he used to even enter races with it. I'm sure he'd be over the moon to realise that someone else is actually riding with DST too.  ;)