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FIM MotoGP/Moto2/Moto3 2018

Started by speedfr, March 16, 2018, 08:10:36 PM

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HornetMaX

But how does it come nobody complains about Zarco ?!
He did essetially the same thing and it's not exactly the 1st time ... still, nobody cares. Weird ...

matty0l215

He should be. That move was also very reckless and needed to be penalied but to do it retrospectivly wouldn't really achive much. I wouldn't have hurt as much as a ridethrough during the race would have. Seen as he was fighting for the lead at that point and seeing it fly away from him like that would stick in his mind.

Quote from: Stout Johnson on April 09, 2018, 09:52:04 PM
He does not seem to care

This is what sticks in my mind about it all. Yes it is racing and you are all out there to win but if you are willing to put others in danger for that? Maybe its best not to race against somone like that.

Warlock

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 09, 2018, 10:54:30 PM
But how does it come nobody complains about Zarco ?!
He did essetially the same thing and it's not exactly the 1st time ... still, nobody cares. Weird ...

I did  :P

Stout Johnson

April 10, 2018, 05:14:21 AM #48 Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 05:30:06 AM by Stout Johnson
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 09, 2018, 10:54:30 PM
But how does it come nobody complains about Zarco ?!
He did essetially the same thing and it's not exactly the 1st time ... still, nobody cares. Weird ...
If people are even argueing that MM behaviour is borderline ok, it does not make sense to talk about Zarco. That's why. Zarco's behaviour also was a very bad move and he has a history of it. Race commission needs to keep him in check as well. But it was one reckless move by Zarco the whole weekend. For the whole weekend Marquez had many reckless moves. I remember seeing him reckless in practice sessions even this weekend. To be quite honest, if Dovizioso was not so well prepared mentally, we would have seen the great last corner overtakes from Marquez not being countered my Dovi, but we would have seen Marquez run into Dovi in the last corner of Qatar 2018 and Austria 2017, maybe even crashing Dovi. Dovi had attitude, skills and plan to counter it. But he could anticipate it since it was the last corner in the last lap. Espargaro and Rossi did not have much of a chance.

And I do not agree with all things Mr Rossi says. But he is right with one thing. Reckless behaviour like we have seen could very well raise the bar of how aggressive overtaking will take place in general. Not every rider has the genetically aggressive style like Marquez. But every rider wants to win and some might adapt. I am even worried at the moment that Rossi may make a stupid move again á la Sepang 2015 in the upcoming races. He seems to think he is the council of elders and has to keep MM in check himself.

I want race commission to take care of this so we won't see any stupid moves, neither initiated by guys like Marquez, Zarco or Iannone nor any even more stupid retaliation moves from Rossi.
    -----------   WarStout Kawasaki Team   -----------

HornetMaX

I haven't seen a lot of people saying MM was borderline OK. Almost everybody agrees the sanction(s) were fair.
Then you have some saying black flags + race ban are needed. This is where I disagree. Strongly.

The line between a gutsy overtake and a too dangerous one is very thin: a bit less of contact, MM not going so wide (pushing VR out) and it would have been an epic move, one that VR could boast about in the aftermath if done by himself. MM took a risk, overdid it, things went wrong, got a penalty. All fine and sorry for VR, shit happens.

Quote from: Stout Johnson on April 10, 2018, 05:14:21 AM
I am even worried at the moment that Rossi may make a stupid move again á la Sepang 2015 in the upcoming races. He seems to think he is the council of elders and has to keep MM in check himself.
I don't think he will but I agree on the council thing: as said before by somebody, he seems to think he's bigger than the sport he's in.

poumpouny

we are talking about race safety here guy, not rossi, MM or whoever else. Don't confound personnal rider preference and race safety

HornetMaX

Quote from: poumpouny on April 10, 2018, 08:08:16 AM
we are talking about race safety here guy, not rossi, MM or whoever else. Don't confound personnal rider preference and race safety
But race security seems to have different interpretations depending on who's involved in the crash.

Stout Johnson

April 10, 2018, 08:28:46 AM #52 Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 08:45:13 AM by Stout Johnson
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 10, 2018, 06:59:24 AM
I haven't seen a lot of people saying MM was borderline OK. Almost everybody agrees the sanction(s) were fair.
Then you have some saying black flags + race ban are needed. This is where I disagree. Strongly.
That is what I mean with borderline ok. Sorry I was not really clear about that. Rossi should have seen the black Flag in Sepang Clash, Marquez should have seen black flag after he made the exact same stupid move for the 3rd time in the same fooking race!!! One time with Espargaro can happen, but one should be more cautious after that. He was not at all, seemed even more aggressive. Then he had another incident with Rabat I think (?), where he was ordered to drop one place, then several other overtakes which were questionable (but maybe ok), then the incident with Rossi where he was totally off the charts. That's just too much. He did not show in any way that he did not mean to do that. He raced like he could ride through other riders (is he playing too much Milestone games in his free time?) or as if he made a habit of bouncing off other riders, so he can take the corner while other's not. It happened many times, many riders were endangered by him, in two incidents the riders even had to take a DNF (Espargaro, Rossi - well Rossi had 0 points).

Imho, it should be a black flag. It can be argued differently, I see that and I respect you opinion. But please respect other's opinion on this matter.

Maybe the rule book should change. One incident during a race which is deemed dangerous/irresponsible should automatically be flagged with a sort of a yellow card. Any further incident which is deemed dangerous/irresponsible should automatically be a black flag? I am not really in favor of such hard rules. I prefer to leave the decision to the stewards and let them assess it according to the whole circumstances. But if we have flexible rules, we need stewards which really have the balls to take action if someone disregards fairness and safety blatantly. And MM did that in Argentina. The stewards lately try not to take too hard sanctions in order to let the riders battle it out on track. The thinking in general is ok, but rules of safety and fairplay ethics stand higher imho. Otherwise the behaviour on track will change by all riders.

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 10, 2018, 06:59:24 AM
The line between a gutsy overtake and a too dangerous one is very thin: a bit less of contact, MM not going so wide (pushing VR out) and it would have been an epic move, one that VR could boast about in the aftermath if done by himself. MM took a risk, overdid it, things went wrong, got a penalty. All fine and sorry for VR, shit happens.
That's where I strongly disagree. That is the exact thinking by MM - which results in such behaviour. If MM had had only one such incident, I would agree with you. It can happen. But he made a habit of this dangerous move during the whole weekend. Corner 13 in Argentina allows to brake late if the rider lifts the bike up a bit, then run from the inside towards the outside, run the other rider off a bit, then accelerate hard from the inside. To a certain degree this can be seen a race overtake. But MM made a habit of braking so late that contact was unavoidable. He anticipated the contact and knew he would make contact. It was part of his plan. That is where it is not a fair race overtake. In Rossi's case he was braking so late that in fact he would have had trouble to make the corner even if he would have been on his own. This driving is simply unacceptable. I am sorry, imho there is no other opinion to this. Otherwise we would allow carnage on track.

Racing is not about epic moves to boast about. Racing is about seeing who is fastest plus respecting each other's equal chances and rules of safety.
    -----------   WarStout Kawasaki Team   -----------

HornetMaX

Quote from: Stout Johnson on April 10, 2018, 08:28:46 AM
He anticipated the contact and knew he would make contact. It was part of his plan.

I do respect your opinion but I don't think the above is even possible. For the very simple reason that, especially given the track conditions, there was a very very high chance for him to crash too (or even for him to crash and Rossi be able to race on). He was trying (too much) to win, not to crash whoever else.

If we are sure he intentionally went for contact/crashed the other rider, black flag or 1 race suspension is not enough. But we aren't.

Quote from: Stout Johnson on April 10, 2018, 08:28:46 AM
Racing is not about epic moves to boast about. Racing is about seeing who is fastest plus respecting each other's equal chances and rules of safety.
Oh come on ... racing history is 95% made of epic moves and battles. And sometimes they just end with one (or two) in the gravel.

guigui404

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 09, 2018, 10:54:30 PM
But how does it come nobody complains about Zarco ?!
He did essetially the same thing and it's not exactly the 1st time ... still, nobody cares. Weird ...

Don't think it's the same cause , we see that pedrosa highside after he accelerate on a puddle

Stout Johnson

April 10, 2018, 09:28:49 AM #55 Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 09:30:29 AM by Stout Johnson
Quote from: HornetMaX on April 10, 2018, 08:45:56 AM
He was trying (too much) to win, not to crash whoever else.
I agree with that. But I did not say anything else. He intended to bounce off the other riders, hoping they can ride on too of course. Anything else would be sociopathical, which he is not. But his plan was to bounce off of other riders if they do not concede and run wide on their own.


Quote from: HornetMaX on April 10, 2018, 08:45:56 AM
If we are sure he intentionally went for contact/crashed the other rider, black flag or 1 race suspension is not enough. But we aren't.
I agree, we cannot be sure about this. But this is an immanent problem with all motives. I work in the law segment and there is a similar problem with sanctions in penal law where the motive of a person is part of what is viewed condemnable behaviour. If we cannot look inside the brain, then we have to resort to the fact that actions are the outer representation of one's motives. So e.g. if a court assumes a murder is premeditated, then it is due to some verifiable actions which are in accordance with planned behaviour (e.g. buying a murder weapon before the murder). I would argue that the fact that MM has made the exact same move the whole weekend should have had a learning effect on such a skilled rider over the course of the weekend. To the effect that such behaviour should have been avoidable. And if it is not avoided it can be considered intentional or at least highly negligent which is considered almost as condemnable and should request similar sanctions.

My 2 cents on this. I accept your view.


Quote from: HornetMaX on April 10, 2018, 08:45:56 AM
Quote from: Stout Johnson on April 10, 2018, 08:28:46 AM
Racing is not about epic moves to boast about. Racing is about seeing who is fastest plus respecting each other's equal chances and rules of safety.

Oh come on ... racing history is 95% made of epic moves and battles. And sometimes they just end with one (or two) in the gravel.
Of course what is remembered are moments that stand out. But epic moves should not be the goal of one's actions. Then the risk/reward ratio is biased if the move itself is part of the reward. Great moves come by themselves if racing happens, they cannot/should not be aimed at.

I stand by my opinion that respecting each other's equal chances and rules of safety are the basis for any sports.
    -----------   WarStout Kawasaki Team   -----------

Hawk

Quote from: HornetMaX on April 09, 2018, 05:23:31 PM
Quote from: matty0l215 on April 09, 2018, 03:31:23 PM
We say this as if it is the first time this is happening.

Okay the dominance of a single rider is newish to this era but each generation of new riders is faster than the last and that is just how the sport develops. What shouldnt be happening is letting riders get away with reckless and unessecerry actions.
Younger Rossi did many reckless things too. On top, he sometimes completed them with questionable comments (like the famous "Hey, it's racing"). People just tend to forget over time.

Also, it's funny to notice how fans of the 500cc era are throwing stones at MM: the various Gardner, Doohan, Schwantz etc were not exactly safety-oriented riders (and the number of fractures on the bodies is just a proof).

I don't blame Rossi for being reckless at the time, many true champions have followed the same pattern (a bit over the line when young, more cautious later on). In MotoGP just like in F1. Point is, now it's on others to be reckless. If Rossi is scared to race with Marc, to the point of fearing for himself, then it's time for him to retire. And the worst is, I don't even think he really thinks that. He just cannot miss a chance to be the victim of something ... I start to think there's a bit of Lorenzo in him :)

You show me anytime where those GP500 riders blatantly caused(not accidental) one of their fellow competitors to crash or purposely rammed other riders to the extent you tend to see nowadays, Max? I bet you can't! Riders definitely had more respect for each other in those days, if not personally then certainly their abilities as a fellow competitor. :P

It's a different era nowadays Max.... The different tyres technologies, the riders(a lot of them are simple nutcases) and especially the bikes with them being computer controlled encourage riders to be more daring and aggressive because the computer control let them get away with it the majority of the time.

As far as you thinking broken bones are proof of aggressive riding in that era, your SO wrong..... That just came with the territory of riding a bike that was totally under the riders control and skill levels as well as riding bikes that were so much more difficult to ride than todays modern MotoGP bikes. Plus high sides were a common crash characteristic of an accident in those days which tended to end with broken bones(Mostly wrists and collar bones).  :)

Admit it Max.... It's SO obvious that MM is a frigging nutcase of the first order and a danger to everyone else around him! It's SO obvious to everyone except MM fans. Lol!  ;D

And btw... I'm not a MM hater.... It's just that I can see what sort of person he is; A frigging nutter!
MM is the sort of character who would be willing to throw his life, and worse, any of his competitors lives away if he thought he could win by doing so, and anyone who thinks that's admirable is also a frigging sociopathical nutcase too! ....  :P

uberslug

Quote from: Hawk on April 10, 2018, 10:38:00 AM
You show me anytime where those GP500 riders blatantly caused(not accidental) one of their fellow competitors to crash or purposely rammed other riders to the extent you tend to see nowadays, Max? I bet you can't! Riders definitely had more respect for each other in those days, if not personally then certainly their abilities as a fellow competitor. :P

Really? As a fan of 500s you should go back and watch the slug fests between Roberts and Spencer. Talk about no holds barred, bare knuckles, end up in a heap fairing banging battles. Spencer was the Marquez of his era while Roberts was his arch nemesis. Roberts still pisses and moans about Spencer and it has been over thirty years since they raced each other. Marquez shows Rossi far more respect than Spencer did Roberts, Rainey did Lawson, Kocinski did Doohan, or Rossi did anyone at any point in his career.

Stout Johnson

Hope we don't get side-tracked in the discussion here. From my point of view it could very well be the case, that we had similar aggressive behaviour in the old times. I don't know those old times.

For me it is important to look at the current era, because the past is the past. I just see that the current way of fighting for the win, which has been established by Marquez, and also seems to be used by Zarco and Iannone (not lately though) to some degree would be really detrimental to the sport. As much drama as it had, I did not really enjoy the last race. It left an awful taste in my mouth because of the antics of Marquez. Last time I felt similarly, was after the Sepang Clash.

And all this despite the fact that the four guys battling for the win (Crutchlow, Zarco, Rins, Miller) were having an awesome and totally fair battle for the win (Zarco's maneouver towards Pedrosa excluded). That was fun to watch and inspring. And all that seemed to be less important because of what happend with a guy trying to battle for 5th place. If MM would have just ridden with normal aggressiveness, he still would have been by far the fastest guy. He would have been able to finish 5th, without risking his health and the health of others, without risking his race and that of Espargaro and Rossi, gain important points for the championship and would not have made a fool of himself.

It is a bright spot to see guys like Rins have so much success. He may look like a donkey, but I truly have become a fan of him. He is the prototype of a perfect racer. Similar to Dovizioso and Pedrosa. Be fast, but always race fair and respect your fellow competitors. I just hope that the bad behaviour does not become accepted behaviour. Imo the race commission has to ensure that by penalizing dangerous behaviour more strictly.
    -----------   WarStout Kawasaki Team   -----------

Blackheart

Quote from: uberslug on April 10, 2018, 11:01:42 AM
Really? As a fan of 500s you should go back and watch the slug fests between Roberts and Spencer. Talk about no holds barred, bare knuckles, end up in a heap fairing banging battles. Spencer was the Marquez of his era while Roberts was his arch nemesis. Roberts still pisses and moans about Spencer and it has been over thirty years since they raced each other. Marquez shows Rossi far more respect than Spencer did Roberts, Rainey did Lawson, Kocinski did Doohan, or Rossi did anyone at any point in his career.

Any your post here is Vs Rossi... Open an other thread about Rossi, I suggest you "I hate Rossi". lol