Steering dampers!

[BOBR6 84]

Hi fellow gpbikers!

Iv been racing gpbikes for a few months now.. Fantastic sim im really enjoying it and starting to pick up some pace now!

One thing I would like to see added is steering dampers!

I think the addition of SD's sooner rather than later would greatly help the direction of the physics and setup options!

Would this be possible for a modder to achieve? Both visually and physical?

Just a suggestion!

Thanks guys and happy riding!

[janaucarre]

hello, welcome.
Youre not the first who ask for a steering damper:)
Perhaps in the next release.

[BOBR6 84]

Hi. Thats Cool, Im pleased to hear im not the first! Haha, yes it would be great to see dampers in the next release for sure!

[Desteban]

As far as I remember there already is some kind of damping integrated. In previous betas we would get a tank slapper very often and thats why Piboso added some artificial steering damper to avoid that. Can't remember to have had any tank slapper  since beta4.

PS: the current damping is also the reason why the bike continues to run straight for so long when the rider has been thrown off.

[C21]

steering damper is already implemented in beta4.

[BOBR6 84]

Oh ok! I started racing gpbikes just before beta4 so I dont feel the difference as to what it was in beta2 say..

So the effects of the damper is there but we still get visual tank slappers?

Would it be possible to have a damper we can see working on the bike? Also fully adjustable and so we can see the different effects it has on the bars and general bike handling?

Most of the time during my laps on gpbikes the bars are flapping around like crazy lol.

On my real bike I have the damper cranked right up so I dont get much movement at all really.. Im not saying thats how it should be but I would like to be able to play around with settings like this in gpbikes! Would be sweeet!

[HornetMaX]

As far as I remember there already is some kind of damping integrated. In previous betas we would get a tank slapper very often and thats why Piboso added some artificial steering damper to avoid that. Can't remember to have had any tank slapper  since beta4.

I confirm. There's definitely something that looks like a damper in the "steer" section of the .cfg file.
However it's not entirely clear how it works (at least to me) and it is not exposed in the garage settings.

PS: the current damping is also the reason why the bike continues to run straight for so long when the rider has been thrown off.

Hmm, that's not so sure. The damper does not tend to align the front wheel, it just opposes a force to a movement ... if the front wheel is misaligned, the damper would not do anything to re-align it.

Would this be possible for a modder to achieve? Both visually and physical?

So for physics the answer is surely yes, it would be possible to add that option (configurable steering damper), it's probably already half-implemented.

Visually however, it's a bit more complex: if you want to show it properly you need moving parts, it complicates the 3d model significantly for just a tiny visual effect.
More or less the same as visually representing the rear shock properly (which is not done now, and the reasons are clear).

MaX.

[Desteban]

Adjustable steering damper would be nice yes!
IRL when riding my R6 even though I have lot of damping my handle bars are flapping around like crazy. Pretty sure that is no exaggeration 

PS: the current damping is also the reason why the bike continues to run straight for so long when the rider has been thrown off.

Hmm, that's not so sure. The damper does not tend to align the front wheel, it just opposes a force to a movement ... if the front wheel is misaligned, the damper would not do anything to re-align it.

Piboso said so in a post but that was in the old forum when i remember correctly

[August1]

My impression is that steering dampening is not realistically implemented in GP Bikes. The reason is because if you enable "direct steer" in profile.ini, the bike's handlebars will flop to opposite lock when the bike is stationary if given a single, quick steering input. This raises another problem actually, which is that front tire friction against the ground when stationary is not properly implemented either. In a real stationary motorcycle, the handlebars are actually quite stiff to turn even without the presence of a steering damper.   

[HornetMaX]

PS: the current damping is also the reason why the bike continues to run straight for so long when the rider has been thrown off.

Hmm, that's not so sure. The damper does not tend to align the front wheel, it just opposes a force to a movement ... if the front wheel is misaligned, the damper would not do anything to re-align it.

Piboso said so in a post but that was in the old forum when i remember correctly

I don't remember that post and normally I do notice this kind of comments (due to the subject and the author). Could be my alzheimer kicking in though

My impression is that steering dampening is not realistically implemented in GP Bikes. The reason is because if you enable "direct steer" in profile.ini, the bike's handlebars will flop to opposite lock when the bike is stationary if given a single, quick steering input. This raises another problem actually, which is that front tire friction against the ground when stationary is not properly implemented either. In a real stationary motorcycle, the handlebars are actually quite stiff to turn even without the presence of a steering damper.   

I noticed it too a long ago, but it may not be a problem: the "virtual rider" (the piece of code converting your target lean given by the stick input into a handlebar torque) may do strange stuff when your speed is zero. But then, your speed is normally not zero

To be honest, sometimes it seems to me that the virtual rider applies corrections to the handlebar too quickly compared to real life (while riding, not at rest).
I mean, the handlebar can shake pretty quickly (as Desteban was saying) on its own, but you as rider cannot shake it that quickly.

MaX.

[Hawk]

As far as I remember there already is some kind of damping integrated. In previous betas we would get a tank slapper very often and thats why Piboso added some artificial steering damper to avoid that. Can't remember to have had any tank slapper  since beta4.

PS: the current damping is also the reason why the bike continues to run straight for so long when the rider has been thrown off.

This issue came up when I posted on the old forum about the fact that when the front wheel lifts off the ground the bike will not steer and only goes bolt straight until the front wheel is grounded again. There was something said about some issue that if it didn't happen that way then when the front end contacted the ground again the bike would go into a tank slapper? Well the current solution implemented seems to me to be a workaround and not a real solution. A properly simulated steering damper would be the proper solution to this problem.
But yeah, if you are not aware of this then give it a try and you will find that when you wheelie or the front end comes up off the ground at any time, the bike will go only bolt straight forward and turning is impossible. I'm sure this is not reality?

[HornetMaX]

This issue came up when I posted on the old forum about the fact that when the front wheel lifts off the ground the bike will not steer and only goes bolt straight until the front wheel is grounded again. There was something said about some issue that if it didn't happen that way then when the front end contacted the ground again the bike would go into a tank slapper? Well the current solution implemented seems to me to be a workaround and not a real solution. A properly simulated steering damper would be the proper solution to this problem.
But yeah, if you are not aware of this then give it a try and you will find that when you wheelie or the front end comes up off the ground at any time, the bike will go only bolt straight forward and turning is impossible. I'm sure this is not reality?

That's something else, unrelated with what we were discussing here (and I remember that post ).

Yeah, when the front lifts off, the virtual rider centers the handlebars: this is because if you land the front unaligned, then you risk going into a tankslapper (even a steering damper could not been enough to save your ass here, plenty of videos on youtube of med/high speed wheelies gone wrong ...).

I'm not sure there's a proper solution for that: the virtual rider should "understand" the bike dynamics when wheeling ... not exactly trivial (including switching between the two "modes": 2 wheels down or only 1 down). But who knows, maybe Piboso has some idea about that. Potentially, when wheeling and pushing the stick left, the handlebars should move right and the bike should lean left, making it go left (slightly). But it's complex, as it's also the rider movement that helps here.

MaX.

[Hawk]

This issue came up when I posted on the old forum about the fact that when the front wheel lifts off the ground the bike will not steer and only goes bolt straight until the front wheel is grounded again. There was something said about some issue that if it didn't happen that way then when the front end contacted the ground again the bike would go into a tank slapper? Well the current solution implemented seems to me to be a workaround and not a real solution. A properly simulated steering damper would be the proper solution to this problem.
But yeah, if you are not aware of this then give it a try and you will find that when you wheelie or the front end comes up off the ground at any time, the bike will go only bolt straight forward and turning is impossible. I'm sure this is not reality?

That's something else, unrelated with what we were discussing here (and I remember that post ).

Yeah, when the front lifts off, the virtual rider centers the handlebars: this is because if you land the front unaligned, then you risk going into a tankslapper (even a steering damper could not been enough to save your ass here, plenty of videos on youtube of med/high speed wheelies gone wrong ...).

I'm not sure there's a proper solution for that: the virtual rider should "understand" the bike dynamics when wheeling ... not exactly trivial (including switching between the two "modes": 2 wheels down or only 1 down). But who knows, maybe Piboso has some idea about that. Potentially, when wheeling and pushing the stick left, the handlebars should move right and the bike should lean left, making it go left (slightly). But it's complex, as it's also the rider movement that helps here.

MaX.

Thanks max... you have a good memory for such an old guy. Hehe

I only mentioned it here because at the time steering dampers were suggested as partly a solution, but as you say it is a very complicated thing to simulate correctly, but this does need sorting out ultimately as part of the physics fine tuning that Piboso is doing.

There is a great 500cc GP race from 1982 and the great Kenny Roberts demonstrates what happens when you do bring down the front end out of line when the front wheel is off the ground while also turning at the same time. So this shows that it is possible to recover from this event. 
This is also a great motorcycle GP to watch from the 1982 500cc world championships, but the event to demonstrate what we have been talking about is between 8:10 - 8:25 mins on this YouTube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7guSbylJtQY

[Desteban]

I don't remember that post and normally I do notice this kind of comments (due to the subject and the author). Could be my alzheimer kicking in though

Since I am the only one remembering that it might be my imagination but if I remember right it there was a complaint about the bike going straight for so long.

Someone posted a vid falling off the bike at the straight on Victoria while the bike continued till the gravel at the first corner. Then Piboso said it was due to the steering damping problem, the new fix made the bike soo stable it wouldn't topple when left alone. So either we get back the tankslappers or we would have to deal with that, of course nobody wanted to get rid of the artificial damping so we kept it. But just as Hawk mentioned it was more of a workaround than a real solution, so to say "temporary".

Don't know if Piboso dealt with that issue yet but it seemed at that time that there were different issues more important, especially since it isn't that big of an issue right now.

[HornetMaX]

I only mentioned it here because at the time steering dampers were suggested as partly a solution,

I don't think so. When your wheel is in the air, you have to steer it a lot (maybe even the whole excursion, like 20deg) to lean the bike: such large angles when coming back down will generate tremendous forces almost instantly. A steering damper could only he;p in case of minor misalignment.

If Piboso ever make the virtual rider able to lean the bike while wheeling, then it will be up to us (players) to be sure the front is properly aligned (or close to) when putting the wheel back down. Notice that, even if technically feasible for him (which is not granted), it may prove to be too hard to be used (like direct steering for example).

So this shows that it is possible to recover from this event. 

It is sometimes possible:
http://www.youtube.com/v/B5PhwIxVnck

When the misalignement is too big (also depending on the speed and the geometry), you will just crash no matter what. It makes sense: imagine you wheeling at 90Kmh and you steer fully left, then cut the throttle hard. The force trying to realing the front wheel will be huge

Since I am the only one remembering that it might be my imagination but if I remember right it there was a complaint about the bike going straight for so long.

Someone posted a vid falling off the bike at the straight on Victoria while the bike continued till the gravel at the first corner. Then Piboso said it was due to the steering damping problem, the new fix made the bike soo stable it wouldn't topple when left alone. So either we get back the tankslappers or we would have to deal with that, of course nobody wanted to get rid of the artificial damping so we kept it. But just as Hawk mentioned it was more of a workaround than a real solution, so to say "temporary".

Don't know if Piboso dealt with that issue yet but it seemed at that time that there were different issues more important, especially since it isn't that big of an issue right now.

OK, now I do recall the discussion !

But my impression was that it was not necessarily coming from the added damper, but more from a fix concerning the self-aligning moment of the front wheel (Piboso once posted that he had tears rolling when he finally managed to fix that). The self aligning moment is due to the front geometry and is the thing that tends to straighten your front wheel at speed. This looks looks a perfect candidate for the "too stable" bike behavior we do see now.

MaX.