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GP Bikes beta17

Started by PiBoSo, February 11, 2020, 03:40:33 PM

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Myst1cPrun3

@Hawk

that being said I am a little unsure of the physics behind these, hence why I'm asking. Although I don't need to be sure of things to know that the M2 has some issue with EB. Whether its actually the clutch IDK.

I believe clutches are tonight's reading 8)

Hawk

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on February 12, 2020, 06:57:14 PM
Quote from: Hawk on February 12, 2020, 06:32:53 PM@Mystic: When you say a bike without a slipper clutch, what bikes are you talking about? All 4 stroke bike engines operate a slipper clutch either electronic or mechanical as far as I'm aware or the rear end would very likely end up killing the rider at some point.

There are a few machines, the most notable in my memory would be Brad Vickers CBR he was on at darley and Scarborough last year.

Every time he went into a turn the rear was locking and he was dipping the clutch, and when he didn't the rear hopped, and the engine even seemed to die and jump start at some points.
Now I didn't get to look or ask about it, so I can't say for certain, but it definitely seemed like there wasn't one.
I also believe my CBR has a standard clutch in it.

(Any 4 stroke that has a slipper clutch cannot be bump started due to the clutch slipping preventing the bump happening. Hence why clutches on grand Prix bikes are locked, (often see mechanics fiddling with a pin on the side of the bike) or they start directly from the crankshaft)
That much I do know

I'm not sure what the modern 4 strokes are like to bump start but for sure the classic 4 strokes you could easily bump start those bikes.

But I'd doubt difficulty bump starting a modern 4 stroke bike has actually anything to do with the slipper clutch functionality. It's maybe something to do with the fact that modern bikes are probably not made to be bump started......
The pressure to make the slipper-clutch slip is far greater than anything a human could apply through simply bump starting a bike.

h106frp

From reading up in the past;
The slipper is a dog clutch with a straight face on the normal driving face and a ramp on the back face, a ball is used between the ramp face and the clutch pressure plate such that as the ramps drive around under back torque it lifts the pressure plate and dis-engages the clutch. The point at which the back torque dis-engages the clutch is controlled by adjusting the clutch stack gap (pressure plate travel).
45 degrees appears to be a stock value and still allows for roller starting, making the angle shallower allows a much lower actauting torque but the higher slip can lead to overheating and the need for starting to be crank driven.

Most road bikes pre 2010 did not have slipper clutches and dumping through the gears without rev matching easily locked the rear, must-have after market add-on for any big twin :-)

PiBoSo

"Obviously your ambition outweighs your talent".

PiBoSo

"Obviously your ambition outweighs your talent".

PiBoSo

"Obviously your ambition outweighs your talent".

matty0l215

questions about the release notes- Why the name length Limit?

and it would be handy to know what that limit is maybe..


Myst1cPrun3

Also: slight bug on 2005 Assen, when in spectator replay camer (and occasionally TV cam also):

Sometimes the cameras flick in-between 2 cameras, I'm guessing the bikes position on the track triggers one camera, and then goes immediately back into the other trigger zone. Can be quite jarring and unimmersive sometimes.

Seen here (second lap spectator camera)



Loving the new beta so far, just a few things to relearn and understand, but nice work :)

HornetMaX

Quote from: Hawk on February 12, 2020, 06:32:53 PM@Mystic: When you say a bike without a slipper clutch, what bikes are you talking about? All 4 stroke bike engines operate a slipper clutch either electronic or mechanical as far as I'm aware or the rear end would very likely end up killing the rider at some point.
That (underlined) is obviously wrong. Also, I don't think there's such a thing as an "electronic slipper clutch", unless of course you are referring to electronic engine brake control (which is definitely not a slipper clutch, even if it tries to solve the same problem).

JohnnoNinja

Quote from: PiBoSo on February 12, 2020, 11:08:57 PMBike and new track registered for the online statistics: https://stats.gp-bikes.com/records.php?trackid=6&bikeid=1

Is it possible to get this to work for other tracks as well?

Hawk

February 13, 2020, 10:14:59 AM #40 Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 10:16:36 AM by Hawk
Quote from: HornetMaX on February 13, 2020, 07:51:31 AM
Quote from: Hawk on February 12, 2020, 06:32:53 PM@Mystic: When you say a bike without a slipper clutch, what bikes are you talking about? All 4 stroke bike engines operate a slipper clutch either electronic or mechanical as far as I'm aware or the rear end would very likely end up killing the rider at some point.
That (underlined) is obviously wrong. Also, I don't think there's such a thing as an "electronic slipper clutch", unless of course you are referring to electronic engine brake control (which is definitely not a slipper clutch, even if it tries to solve the same problem).

Quote from: h106frp on February 12, 2020, 07:40:01 PMFrom reading up in the past;
The slipper is a dog clutch with a straight face on the normal driving face and a ramp on the back face, a ball is used between the ramp face and the clutch pressure plate such that as the ramps drive around under back torque it lifts the pressure plate and dis-engages the clutch. The point at which the back torque dis-engages the clutch is controlled by adjusting the clutch stack gap (pressure plate travel).
45 degrees appears to be a stock value and still allows for roller starting, making the angle shallower allows a much lower actuating torque but the higher slip can lead to overheating and the need for starting to be crank driven.

Most road bikes pre 2010 did not have slipper clutches and dumping through the gears without rev matching easily locked the rear, must-have after market add-on for any big twin :-)

Max/H: Noted and I stand corrected. Thanks guys.  ;)  8)

Having tested the slipper clutch settings last night, I think the slipper clutch settings are incorrect somewhere in game, either bikes physics(probable cause?) or hardcore simulation? What do you guys think?
If I remember rightly, the slipper clutch is supposed to smooth the transition to the rear wheel of the back torque from engine braking either cause of down shifting or sudden throttle lifting, and the racing version of the slipper clutch can be adjusted to do that no matter how fast you change down gears into corners to avoid the rear locking-up and sliding away from you, it's just a matter of how you like the slipper-clutch set-up for your riding style.....
The current parameters/settings for the in garage slipper-clutch don't allow that smooth transition without very delayed down-shifts(okay for casual public road riding, but for aggressive racing gear shifts not so good).

What do you guys think?

PS: Shouldn't there also be an option for a racing slipper clutch to define the number and thicknesses of the plates too?

BOBR6 84

Slipper clutch stops the rear locking but doesn't stop sliding. Probably slides more if you are aggressive with the downshifts. Especially if you rely completely on the slipper.

Be interesting to hear from somebody using a clutch lever on a control system.. if you can modulate the clutch use any better.

Iv always used an xbox or similar controller with the clutch on the right thumbstick. Not much modulation and requires careful small movement compared to a full real lever.

Hawk

Quote from: BOBR6 84 on February 13, 2020, 11:53:16 AMSlipper clutch stops the rear locking but doesn't stop sliding. Probably slides more if you are aggressive with the downshifts. Especially if you rely completely on the slipper.

Be interesting to hear from somebody using a clutch lever on a control system.. if you can modulate the clutch use any better.

Iv always used an xbox or similar controller with the clutch on the right thumbstick. Not much modulation and requires careful small movement compared to a full real lever.

Absolutely agree with you Bob, but I hope you'll agree with me too that when the rear is sliding the rider can control the slide, whereas when the wheel locks up, and is skidding, it is very difficult to control and will usually lead to the rear completely breaking away, hence the implementation of slipper clutches. Big difference between sliding and skidding the rear end when it comes to a rider being able to control the reaction well, yes? :)

BOBR6 84

February 13, 2020, 01:51:49 PM #43 Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 01:57:25 PM by BOBR6 84
Yeah of course I agree!

So is the bike in-sim locking the rear and skidding? Or is it just sliding out as the rear wheel slows?

The other point is that you can get the same effect by releasing the clutch lever slowly on your final downshift before the corner on the brakes. Whereas with a slipper you can release the lever straight away.

Just wondering if it helps in game having more modulation on the clutch


javiliyors

I think that apart from introducing the slipper clutch, the clutch system should also be improved and that it be configurable in the same way as it is in real life.
I have come to configure the cfg of my bike so that it works very well, but the problem that the clutch can only be touched from the cfg. that if, if you continue reducing the 6 gears sharply in a braking, the wheel slides ..... it makes it less abrupt but it continues to do so.