Brexit or not ?

[HornetMaX]

What does make an interesting read (cos we is humans and we like conspirational amusement) is all the right wing news from other EU countries that is starting to circulate. General consensus - The EU will crumble within 5 years. Ay carumba the cat is out of the bag lets hope the right doesn't move to the middle lol.

(Extreme) Right-wing here in France has been predicting the implosion of the EU during the last 20 years, so yeah ... nothing to be scared about.
But if you have evidence of that "general consensus", I'd like to read that.

I have a problem with that in that it would need me to post press links and that's the road to hell yet again. But use the keyphrase 'EU crumble within 5 years" and you should find some amusement.

Done that just now. Came up with a metric ton of deep fried air like "Sweden, Germany, Italy and France all under pressure to hold referendums".
Which pressure ? Nobody knows at the moment. Talk about "doom and gloom mongering" ...

Sounds more like the UK has left and finding somebody else willing to follow suite would be some sort of relief for somebody who after a lot of blabbing is now facing a problem much bigger than expected.

At the moment, the support is coming from the likes of Marine LePen: trust me, you're far better off if you stay away from her and the likes.
I'm fairly sure that if you dig a bit into who she is what she thinks, most of you wouldn't touch her with a barge pole.

And the cherry on top for today, from the very man that made all this a reality: "Cameron tells EU leaders they must offer UK more control over immigration". Must ? Really ?  Now that's an interesting choice of words. I'll make a mental note to ask him if there's something else the EU must do. It is true he played his cards out like a real strategy wizard so we should all listen to his invaluable advice.

And he goes on: "Setting out the basis for a future British deal with the EU, he said that Britain will only be able to maintain access to the single market if the bloc agrees to look again at its policy of open borders.". Uh, I think there's a little misunderstanding here ...

[Napalm Nick]

Told ya. Press Doom and Gloom. People take that info and make it their religions, that's what scares me.

I watched the film Idiocracy the other day (yes right to the end!) and that was set 500 years in the future. I reckon they might be out by about 495 years.

1975 we voted to stay in the European community because of the ideals of being stronger in a Union - investing in our future. I guess we didn't factor human greed for money and power . How naïve! I must find a moaning youngster and ask if they knew that.  I can say things like "yeh I fell for it at your age too".

Dolphins must evolve quicker, hopefully before God throws that asteroid at us. Hey there is a discussion worth having - how come all these meteors and asteroids have nearly touched down recently yet absolutely NONE of them were forecast? I think that Russian one was a case of the gov't making a decision not to tell anyone to avoid panic, cross their fingers and hope it burnt up. Don't hold your breath if you think they would let us know about the big one.

[Stout Johnson]

This discussion is very interesting, if only for the psychological implications I wonder why some of the guys I always perceived to be rather relaxed seem to have a tendency to get so grumpy here. If I was in the shoes of a Brexit-supporter at the moment (who truly is believing in the validity of the decision), I'd probably be totally relaxed and tell the press and everyone else to go and f..k themselves - future will prove you wrong.

1975 we voted to stay in the European community because of the ideals of being stronger in a Union - investing in our future. I guess we didn't factor human greed for money and power . How naïve! I must find a moaning youngster and ask if they knew that.  I can say things like "yeh I fell for it at your age too".

I am pretty much there with you Nick - EU should definitely be optimized. But only because one realizes the gasoline engine is not perfectly optimized does not mean going back to a wood carburator engine is the best solution (sorry couldn't come up with a better figurative comparison ). But maybe on the bright side, the Brexit did show the people in Brussels that there in fact is stuff that creates frustration and some changes are about to happen? I hope so.

I realize that you are in favor of Brexit for specific reasons. I won't argue that, it is a valid position (but please realize other positions might also be valid if certain values are prioritized differently). But what I do find hard to understand is that you guys also seem to be contra further de-centralization...

I do hope the Scots hold another indie-referendum(sounds like they may well do that) so they will finally split from us and then come crawling back on their hands and knees after 3 years after failing to survive on their own....

Did it ever occur to you that the reasoning for autonomy efforts of certain regions (not only Scots) are generally very similar to those of the Brexit?

Again, I don't want to fuel the fire  I just would like to make a case for open-minded-ness. If someone is talking crap, then disagree. But sometimes people just do have different opinions because they value certain aspects differently. I am pretty sure I could talk to an intelligent person in favor of Brexit for one hour and be shown valid aspects that I did not see before, but I also do think the same of a conversation with an intelligent con-Brexiteer... a singular claim for truth is almost always an illusion.

[Hawk]

@Stout: I was just being flippant.  Lol 
How can you respect anyone who blatantly ignores the democratic process they say they hold so dear... What a joke they are! 

But yeah the Scots MP's get on my wick with these calls for staying in the EU since the referendum result although there was a clear majority wanting to leave..... The Scots MP's are talking as though they feel Scotland is a totally indie state already... well tuff, it's not, it's still part of the UK....... The ref has been done and the democratic result final so suck it up Scots and get on working with the British Government to get us all the best deal possible instead of them throwing their toys out of the pram! Lol 

I mean did you hear that Scottish MEP's speech in the EU yesterday talking as though the EU commission could stop them having to leave the EU! Haha! I think he'd had too much Drambuie! Lol 

Hawk.

[Napalm Nick]

This discussion is very interesting, if only for the psychological implications I wonder why some of the guys I always perceived to be rather relaxed seem to have a tendency to get so grumpy here. If I was in the shoes of a Brexit-supporter at the moment (who truly is believing in the validity of the decision), I'd probably be totally relaxed and tell the press and everyone else to go and f..k themselves - future will prove you wrong.

Me? Grumpy! Never!  just passionate in what I believe in. I already invited anyone in from the Remain Camp but not a soul turned up. I consider myself a good diplomat and able to listen to and evaluate both points of view without sticking my fingers in my ears at bits I don't like. In fact I did that all the way up to the referendum vote day (Evaluate stuff not the fingers in ears stuff). Between me , you and the bedsheets, I was an Innie for much of the campaign period strongly defending how far we had come in the (er) petrol engine design and if we kept pushing ahead it would all turn out nice and the ideals we signed up for 40 years ago would be achieved. Then I woke up and realised if 40 years wasn't enough to get nowhere near the ideals we joined for, then it was time for a change in direction. Just my choice and seems a few others agree.

1975 we voted to stay in the European community because of the ideals of being stronger in a Union - investing in our future. I guess we didn't factor human greed for money and power . How naïve! I must find a moaning youngster and ask if they knew that.  I can say things like "yeh I fell for it at your age too".

I am pretty much there with you Nick - EU should definitely be optimized. But only because one realizes the gasoline engine is not perfectly optimized does not mean going back to a wood carburator engine is the best solution (sorry couldn't come up with a better figurative comparison ). But maybe on the bright side, the Brexit did show the people in Brussels that there in fact is stuff that creates frustration and some changes are about to happen? I hope so.

Unfortunately I don't think it is heading in the right direction to ever be fixed. Better to start looking at non-fossil fuelled designs. (Ha fossils lol now I see where you are going)

I realize that you are in favor of Brexit for specific reasons. I won't argue that, it is a valid position (but please realize other positions might also be valid if certain values are prioritized differently). But what I do find hard to understand is that you guys also seem to be contra further de-centralization...

I do I do! It has been a long hard slog to get to this decision and isn't a whim. Like I said I was in the other position then as I learnt more I prioritized my decision.  Not sure what you mean on the last bit - you think we want the EU to fall apart now? Not at all I would love them to now think OK we need to change and get back on track to the ideals we were formed from. Do that and I might even come crawling back cap in hand. And I would hope to be let back in with a "yeh you made us see the light, sorry". OK I know - no-one is ever gonna say sorry.

[HornetMaX]

But yeah the Scots MP's get on my wick with these calls for staying in the EU since the referendum result although there was a clear majority wanting to leave..... The Scots MP's are talking as though they feel Scotland is a totally indie state already... well tuff, it's not, it's still part of the UK....... The ref has been done and the democratic result final so suck it up Scots and get on working with the British Government to get us all the best deal possible instead of them throwing their toys out of the pram! Lol 

I mean did you hear that Scottish MEP's speech in the EU yesterday talking as though the EU commission could stop them having to leave the EU! Haha! I think he'd had too much Drambuie! Lol 

This is exactly the kind of bossiness that makes the Scots wanna leave you.

Under normal conditions a 2nd independence referendum would not be an option. But the current situation in the UK is not really what one could call normal condition.
So yes, as a consequence of the recent events and changes, I think a 2nd Scottish referendum is legitimate.

[Stout Johnson]

@Nick: your comments read much better without the grumpiness  in fact, I can now comprehend your situation better. And maybe one day it will all happen like you outlined... including the crawling back and the resumé that Brexit might have changed sth within the EU 

@Hawk: I know what you mean. But I wanted to lead somewhere else - don't if you did not see it or did not want to see it    you could pretty much exchange 1) EU=UK and 2) UK=Scots and you'd have two similar situations. In one situation you are pro-exit in the other you are not although (at a rough level) the situations are similar - seems rather inconsistent  

PS: off to watch now something very british, yet universally funny - Fawlty Towers 

[Hawk]

But yeah the Scots MP's get on my wick with these calls for staying in the EU since the referendum result although there was a clear majority wanting to leave..... The Scots MP's are talking as though they feel Scotland is a totally indie state already... well tuff, it's not, it's still part of the UK....... The ref has been done and the democratic result final so suck it up Scots and get on working with the British Government to get us all the best deal possible instead of them throwing their toys out of the pram! Lol 

I mean did you hear that Scottish MEP's speech in the EU yesterday talking as though the EU commission could stop them having to leave the EU! Haha! I think he'd had too much Drambuie! Lol 

This is exactly the kind of bossiness that makes the Scots wanna leave you.

Under normal conditions a 2nd independence referendum would not be an option. But the current situation in the UK is not really what one could call normal condition.
So yes, as a consequence of the recent events and changes, I think a 2nd Scottish referendum is legitimate.

Bossiness Max? What you talking about?   
The Scottish MP's are acting like they are already an independent country, they are not, so don't you think the referendum result applies to Scotland too? Of course it does so they should abide by it and accept it honourably; that's what democracy is about Max... Though maybe the Scottish MP's are SO arrogant that they feel it doesn't or shouldn't apply?  They sure are acting like it.

And what isn't normal?
We had a referendum to remain or leave the EU, the majority like always won the vote and everyone else should accept it with grace and honour it with dignity don't you think? And that includes the Scots. 
Calling it abnormal is a total front to the democratic system.... I suppose you'd also support London going for an independence vote too because the majority in the London area voted to remain? Though I have heard rumours that someone was actually looking into that so the financial sector in London would benefit. Haha!
It's Just SO ridiculous Max how the remain supporters are treating the final result. The immaturity of those people in power just makes for super entertainment! I've not laughed SO much at supposedly responsible people in a long time!

Anyway the Scots won't get an independence referendum vote anytime soon, that's for sure, and why should they when they've proven beyond a doubt that they cannot be trusted to uphold a democratic decision. 
If I had my way I'd dissolve the Scottish Parliament and put them back under total English rule. LOL!! 

And then they say if there were Extra Terrestrials keeping watch on us then why don't they make themselves known.... Would you, seeing the way we conduct ourselves?! Hehe! 

Hawk.

[HornetMaX]

Yeah, right Hawk.

[Hawk]

Yeah, right Hawk.

[Hawk]

@Hawk: I know what you mean. But I wanted to lead somewhere else - don't if you did not see it or did not want to see it    you could pretty much exchange 1) EU=UK and 2) UK=Scots and you'd have two similar situations. In one situation you are pro-exit in the other you are not although (at a rough level) the situations are similar - seems rather inconsistent  

PS: off to watch now something very british, yet universally funny - Fawlty Towers 

Great programme "Faulty Towers"! One of the all time great comedies... Timeless! 
Shame we don't get those sort of programmes made anymore.

Are you playing Devils Advocate here Stout? 
As you know, the UK is Scotland, England, Wales and N.Ireland...... Legally it is the UK that was a member of the EU. So rightly so, the referendum was held for the UK as a whole. The fact that the majority of Scots voted to remain and therefore should be able to remain in the EU is total nonsense.... If they want to be part of the EU then they should act sensibly to get their independence and then apply independently to join the EU themselves.
Besides all Scots didn't vote to remain, so if we take the Scottish attitude, then what about the Scots who voted to leave? Don't they deserve just as much representation as those that voted to remain? You see how silly this all is when people try to twist things for their own gains? 
I mean were would it all stop? Would London declare independence and re-join the EU? And what about all the other UK counties that voted to remain too? I hope you can see how crazy the Scottish argument is?
The vote was a democratic vote and should be honoured with some dignity, and that is far from happening right now.

Hawk.

[Stout Johnson]

Great programme "Faulty Towers"! One of the all time great comedies... Timeless! 
Shame we don't get those sort of programmes made anymore.

That's what I thought when I watched the programme. It is such a nice and discreet humor, it works without anything special, just very good and only slighty accentuated portrait of human character. It needs an intelligent viewer though - which might be the reason we don't get to see this kind of programme anymore these days... 

Are you playing Devils Advocate here Stout? 
As you know, the UK is Scotland, England, Wales and N.Ireland...... Legally it is the UK that was a member of the EU. So rightly so, the referendum was held for the UK as a whole.
[...]
I mean were would it all stop? Would London declare independence and re-join the EU? And what about all the other UK counties that voted to remain too? I hope you can see how crazy the Scottish argument is?
The vote was a democratic vote and should be honoured with some dignity, and that is far from happening right now.

I am aware of all that stuff, Hawk. But I realize I was not precise enough. I am trying to create a hypothetic situtation, please don't think within the actual political and legal circumstances. Just abstract a simplistic and hypothetical situation where the Scots are eligible to vote for either remain or exit the UK. Still I'd think you would rather tell them to bugger off and realize they are part of the UK, eventually it will also be for the benefit of themselves etc... although many reasons for them to leave would argumentally be similar to the Brexit arguments (imposed will by the central government, not really represented in government, legislature etc, certain regional and cultural aspects not represented etc etc.)

Again, I am aware I am being very simplistic in creating such a hypothtical situation ans also in my resumé of supposed argumentation being brought forward. It should just try to prove the point that the position one is taking very much depends on the perspective...

[Hawk]

@Stout: Well yes I understand what your saying, but people can look at the situation from any perspective if they want to justify their own opinions, but at the same time we have to stick to reality, and the reality is that the UK is coming out of the EU.

But I think we all know the reality to exactly why Nicola Sturgeon is creating so much fuss about wanting Scotland to stay in the EU and visiting the EU commission and doing all her supposed talks to try and find a way for Scotland to stay in the EU despite the referendum result...... She knows full well she won't get a deal with the EU for Scotland to stay; she's just playing classic politics to gain Scottish support for if/when Scotland get another chance for an indie referendum. She wants to make sure that this time she has almost universal Scottish support for going indie because she also knows that if she somehow convinces the UK parliament to give them another indie ref and she again loses like she did last time then that will likely be the end of her political career. She's not daft..... She's portraying one thing while in reality trying to consolidate support from the Scottish people for what she really wants(independence for Scotland). She knows that if she can get all those that voted to remain in the EU to support her Scottish indie aspirations then she'll likely get the result she really wants, and what better way to do that than to deceive the Scottish people into thinking that she supports and is working hard to keep Scotland in the EU when she knows full well that due to the BREXIT result all the UK will be coming out of the EU.... She knows full well already!
Sturgeon is using pure political brain washing of the Scottish people to get what she really wants. But it's good that some of us can see right through her tactics and aspirations, and for that reason, if it was up to me, I wouldn't even consider giving Scotland another indie ref for the foreseeable future, at least until the UK got settled into it's life outside the EU. 

Hawk.

[HornetMaX]

Another day of fun: so the UK was initially very keen to take its time before starting the article 50 procedure (Cameron declaring "it's UK sovereign decision to decide when and how").

EU leaders not very happy about that (uncertainty is bad), so they turn the pressure on and Cameron anticipates the designation of his successor to 9th Sept 2016, saying it will be up to him/her to do the job.

Now the EU clarifies a bit further: the UK has up to 16 Sept 2016 to start the art 50 process. If at that time it's not yet done, the EU could start a process to suspend UK rights, including vote (in simpler words, kick the UK out). Lawyers have established that if the UK bides his time despite the EU request to proceed, that's a violation of one of the articles of the Lisbon treaty (article 4, the bit about "sincere cooperation"): that violation seems to qualify as a "violation of fundamental principles", which in turn allows the other EU states to vote (majority) the suspension of rights for the offending state.

At this point you may ask: so where's the funny part ? Here it is: let's for a second imagine all this happens (UK not using art. 50, UK rights suspended) and the UK is not happy about that. What would be the only way for the UK to defend itself (except a military action I mean) ? The European Court of Justice, i.e. one of the EU institutions most despised and laughed at by brexiters.

Sturgeon is using pure political brain washing of the Scottish people to get what she really wants. But it's good that some of us can see right through her tactics and aspirations, and for that reason, if it was up to me, I wouldn't even consider giving Scotland another indie ref for the foreseeable future, at least until the UK got settled into it's life outside the EU. 

So let me recap: Sturgeon brainwash people while Farage/Johnson expose facts. Alyn Smith's speech in the EU parliament is laughable while and Farage's speech in the EU parliament is enjoyable.
It seems to me your point of view is so far from the ones of Scottish people that you should have no problem at all in letting them go. What's the problem then ? Why you don't like the idea of Scotland breaking apart for the UK ?

The EU has already made very clear that the EU deals with states: SCO at the moment is not a state. End of the discussion. Anybody knows this. And the way out of that.

[girlracerTracey]

Crikey are you guys still going with this? Here's an alternative viewpoint..

The Collapse of Western Democracy

Democracy no longer exists in the West. In the US powerful private interest groups, such as the military-security complex, Wall Street, the Israel Lobby, agribusiness and the extractive industries of energy, timber and mining, have long exercised more control over government than the people. But now even the semblance of democracy has been abandoned.

In the US Donald Trump has won the Republican presidential nomination. However, Republican convention delegates are plotting to deny Trump the nomination that the people have voted him. The Republican political establishment is showing an unwillingness to accept democratic outcomes. The people chose, but their choice is unacceptable to the establishment which intends to substitute its choice for the people's choice.

Do you remember Dominic Strauss-Kahn? Strauss-Kahn is the Frenchman who was head of the IMF and, according to polls, the likely next president of France. He said something that sounded too favorable toward the Greek people. This concerned powerful banking interests who worried that he might get in the way of their plunder of Greece, Portugal, Spain, and Italy. A hotel maid appeared who accused him of rape. He was arrested and held without bail. After the police and prosecutors had made fools of themselves, he was released with all charges dropped. But the goal was achieved. Strauss-Kahn had to resign as IMF director and kiss goodbye his chance for the presidency of France.

Curious, isn't it, that a woman has now appeared who claims Trump raped her when she was 13 years old.

Consider the political establishment's response to the Brexit vote. Members of Parliament are saying that the vote is unacceptable and that Parliament has the right and responsibility to ignore the voice of the people.

The view now established in the West is that the people are not qualified to make political decisions. The position of the opponents of Brexit is clear: it simply is not a matter for the British people whether their sovereignty is given away to an unaccountable commission in Brussels.

Martin Schultz, President of the EU Parliament, puts it clearly: "It is not the EU philosophy that the crowd can decide its fate."

The Western media have made it clear that they do not accept the people's decision either. The vote is said to be "racist" and therefore can be disregarded as illegitimate.

Washington has no intention of permitting the British to exit the European Union. Washington did not work for 60 years to put all of Europe in the EU bag that Washington can control only to let democracy undo its achievement.

The Federal Reserve, its Wall Street allies, and its Bank of Japan and European Central Bank vassals will short the UK pound and equities, and the presstitutes will explain the decline in values as "the market's" pronouncement that the British vote was a mistake. If Britain is actually permitted to leave, the two-year long negotiations will be used to tie the British into the EU so firmly that Britain leaves in name only.

No one with a brain believes that Europeans are happy that Washington and NATO are driving them into conflict with Russia. Yet their protests have no effect on their governments.

Consider the French protests of what the neoliberal French government, masquerading as socialist, calls "labor law reforms." What the "reform" does is to take away the reforms that the French people achieved over decades of struggle. The French made employment more stable and less uncertain, thereby reducing stress and contributing to the happiness of life. But the corporations want more profit and regard regulations and laws that benefit people as barriers to higher profitability. Neoliberal economists backed the takeback of French labor rights with the false argument that a humane society causes unemployment. The neoliberal economists call it "liberating the employment market" from reforms achieved by the French people.

The French government, of course, represents corporations, not the French people.

The neoliberal economists and politicians have no qualms about sacrificing the quality of French life in order to clear the way for global corporations to make more profits. What is the value in "the global market" when the result is to worsen the fate of peoples?

Consider the Germans. They are being overrun with refugees from Washington's wars, wars that the stupid German government enabled. The German people are experiencing increases in crime and sexual attacks. They protest, but their government does not hear them. The German government is more concerned about the refugees than it is about the German people.

Consider the Greeks and the Portuguese forced by their governments to accept personal financial ruin in order to boost the profits of foreign banks. These governments represent foreign bankers. not the Greek and Portuguese people.

One wonders how long before all Western peoples conclude that only a French Revolution complete with guillotine can set them free.


Dr Paul Craig Roberts

(Dr. Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the U.S. Treasury for Economic Policy under the Reagan administration and later served as a consultant to the U.S. Department of Defense and the U.S. Department of Commerce. Dr. Roberts also held the position of associate editor and columnist for The Wall Street Journal and columnist for Business Week and the Scripps Howard News Service.)