Brexit or not ?

[BozoCRO]

Max when/if UK leaves EU it can once again join EFTA and still enjoy free trade preferential treatment.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association

Our good friends the Swiss won't be pressured by EU to do anything they aren't willing to do on their own. They have very advanced political conscience insured by referendums, so their political leaders have a hard time pushing "agendas". Just recently they voted against setting a minimum wage law.

I mean they got away with keeping Hitlers gold, like EU is going to scare them?!   

[h106frp]

I know that I'd be accused of "doom mongering", but I have to break you another bad news: there's no such a thing as God

Wish you could manage to spread that message - really would make the world  better place if the idiots did not believe they could blame the will of god for their actions

[HornetMaX]

Our good friends the Swiss won't be pressured by EU to do anything they aren't willing to do on their own.

You may read the news about that, because it's changing.

I know that I'd be accused of "doom mongering", but I have to break you another bad news: there's no such a thing as God

Wish you could manage to spread that message - really would make the world  better place if the idiots did not believe they could blame the will of god for their actions

I try as much as I can, but it seems to be harder than convincing a brit about staying in the EU

[HornetMaX]

Despite voting out, Farage was not part of the Leave campaign...hmmm he is looking a stronger choice every day. God help us.

Your turn to lose a bet ?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jul/04/brexit-live-plan-leave-vote-hysteria-boris-johnson?CMP=share_btn_tw

Madness. Pure Madness.

[BozoCRO]

Our good friends the Swiss won't be pressured by EU to do anything they aren't willing to do on their own.

You may read the news about that, because it's changing.

ok, lets lets assume EU makes Switzerland accept unwanted immigrants.

So they come and get offered jobs/wellfare for 1CHF a month, because http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36454060

I am guessing direct democracy is a bitch 

[HornetMaX]

@BozoCRO: it wasn't the EU that tried to set up the minimum wage, that's up to the Swiss. And has nothing to do with the discussion.
The EU has some negotiating power over Switzerland and it seems they are finally about to use it (including for recent changes in banking "transparency").

[BozoCRO]

@BozoCRO: it wasn't the EU that tried to set up the minimum wage, that's up to the Swiss. And has nothing to do with the discussion.
The EU has some negotiating power over Switzerland and it seems they are finally about to use it (including for recent changes in banking "transparency").

Please quote me where have I said that EU set up the referendum, or I will just assume you are spinning my arguments to discredit me.

Swiss people voted against the minimum wage law to discourage immigrants from coming in the first place, not because EU has any real power over them.
Banking transparency could be used against EU also. So far they only release information that was asked for. What if something unwanted leaked?

Ontopic, This whole carrot and stick game between EU and UK reminds me of sanctions EU imposed on Russia few years back.
So far Russia survived this horror 

[HornetMaX]

Please quote me where have I said that EU set up the referendum, or I will just assume you are spinning my arguments to discredit me.

You didn't, but the link between the minimum wage and the discussion is weak.

Swiss people voted against the minimum wage law to discourage immigrants from coming in the first place, not because EU has any real power over them.

Or maybe because they just don't want a minimum wage, independently of EU immigrants.
Switzerland is already part of Schengen: if they didn't want EU immigrants and had the capability to be out of the EU market, Switzerland would pull out of Schengen. But they haven't and don't plan to in the near future ... too much business at stake ...

Ontopic, This whole carrot and stick game between EU and UK reminds me of sanctions EU imposed on Russia few years back.
So far Russia survived this horror 

Very true. But Russia is a bit more equipped to survive on his own than Switzerland or the UK.

[Napalm Nick]

Despite voting out, Farage was not part of the Leave campaign...hmmm he is looking a stronger choice every day. God help us.

Your turn to lose a bet ?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/jul/04/brexit-live-plan-leave-vote-hysteria-boris-johnson?CMP=share_btn_tw

Madness. Pure Madness.

Wow yes I read just before here. Get them all out.

If you have sparked a religious debate inside a Brexit debate then you may be crowned the World  best Troll and they will talk of the day the great MaxEuro not only brought down the PiBoSo forum but singlehandedly advanced WW3.

Vote Napalm - really the only choice (left).

[HornetMaX]

If you have sparked a religious debate inside a Brexit debate then you may be crowned the World  best Troll and they will talk of the day the great MaxEuro not only brought down the PiBoSo forum but singlehandedly advanced WW3.

Oh come on, people here ramble about CIA conspiracies, upside down stars and whatever and I get the "World Best Troll" ? Seems unfair

[BozoCRO]

You didn't, but the link between the minimum wage and the discussion is weak.

I would disagree. It shows that there are always options, you just need to be creative and think out of the box.

Or maybe because they just don't want a minimum wage, independently of EU immigrants.
Switzerland is already part of Schengen: if they didn't want EU immigrants and had the capability to be out of the EU market, Switzerland would pull out of Schengen. But they haven't and don't plan to in the near future ... too much business at stake ...

From a link I posted above:
"Theoretically, if Switzerland were an island, the answer is yes. But with open borders, it's a total impossibility, especially for Switzerland, with a high living standard," he said.

"If you would offer every individual a Swiss amount of money, you would have billions of people who would try to move into Switzerland."

Secondly Schengen has nothing to do with business. Switzerland still has customs paperwork when doing business with EU, same as any EFTA country. Free trade thing is about not paying customs fees, not total "freedom".

Very true. But Russia is a bit more equipped to survive on his own than Switzerland or the UK.

Why? Because it's got advanced manufactoring industry? Don't think so...
But it does have options. To trade with China, U.S., Russia, even India, Brasil, and other developing countries.

If things continue to evolve as they are right now in 100 Years Europe will be a poor holiday resort for the hard working Chinese and Indian workforce.
And only because we, Europeans, won't face the fact that world is changing and we are on the losing end.
Same could be said about the EU. If they were ready to listen to U.K.'s problems and adapt to them we wouldn't be having this discusion right now.

[HornetMaX]

Secondly Schengen has nothing to do with business. Switzerland still has customs paperwork when doing business with EU, same as any EFTA country. Free trade thing is about not paying customs fees, not total "freedom".

And that's why the EU ties "free trading" with "free moving".

Very true. But Russia is a bit more equipped to survive on his own than Switzerland or the UK.

Why? Because it's got advanced manufactoring industry? Don't think so...
But it does have options. To trade with China, U.S., Russia, even India, Brasil, and other developing countries.

You mean the UK (or any EU state) has no option to trade with China or the US or India or Brasil ? 

If things continue to evolve as they are right now in 100 Years Europe will be a poor holiday resort for the hard working Chinese and Indian workforce.
And only because we, Europeans, won't face the fact that world is changing and we are on the losing end.

I prefer to face a future with powerful countries as China and India with a strong EU, instead as a single little nation.

Same could be said about the EU. If they were ready to listen to U.K.'s problems and adapt to them we wouldn't be having this discusion right now.

If we listened to the UK, the EU would only be a marketplace, nothing more.

[BozoCRO]

And that's why the EU ties "free trading" with "free moving".

So you can move to Turkey, Serbia or South Korea just like that???! Those countries also have free trading contracts with EU. Probably many others but can't think of any at the moment.

You mean the UK (or any EU state) has no option to trade with China or the US or India or Brasil ? 

No I'am talking about Switzerland, pay attention.  The point was if EU doesn't want Swiss goods they can pivot to other markets. The number of rich people in developing countries is growing every day.

I prefer to face a future with powerful countries as China and India with a strong EU, instead as a single little nation.

Well it seems it going to be a wee bit weaker in a year or two.

If we listened to the UK, the EU would only be a marketplace, nothing more.

Then we are better off without them? But the point above worries me... 

[Napalm Nick]

If you have sparked a religious debate inside a Brexit debate then you may be crowned the World  best Troll and they will talk of the day the great MaxEuro not only brought down the PiBoSo forum but singlehandedly advanced WW3.

Oh come on, people here ramble about CIA conspiracies, upside down stars and whatever and I get the "World Best Troll" ? Seems unfair

Hehe you do have me laughing today.  Just think of it like being called a geek.  Used by people thinking they are casting an insult whereas the truth is they  are raising that persons status considerably. I can't think of any words for conspiricists. No suggestions please.

If they were ready to listen to U.K.'s problems and adapt to them we wouldn't be having this discusion right now.

Yep and I still hope they take heed to stop any further dismantling and get back to the EU ethos. Better to be a Martyr to the cause and part of the solution than to live in denial.

[HornetMaX]

And that's why the EU ties "free trading" with "free moving".

So you can move to Turkey, Serbia or South Korea just like that???! Those countries also have free trading contracts with EU. Probably many others but can't think of any at the moment.

You're mixing up stuff man.

What the EU says is: if you want to trade with the EU with the same conditions as EU states, then you have to adopt this or that rule.
Each state is free to decline the offer of course, in which case a one-to-one deal is negotiated. Of course the conditions can't be the same.

The point was if EU doesn't want Swiss goods they can pivot to other markets. The number of rich people in developing countries is growing every day.

Sure. But 56% of CH exports goes into the EU. Plus there's another detail: CH is in the middle of the EU ...

But it's wasted time to discuss this: we'll see how it ends soon.

I prefer to face a future with powerful countries as China and India with a strong EU, instead as a single little nation.

Well it seems it going to be a wee bit weaker in a year or two.

That's a prediction and not a fact. Let's see.
But even it the EU will be weaker than today (which I don' think), it would be easier to deal with China as the EU, instead of as France or Spain.

If we listened to the UK, the EU would only be a marketplace, nothing more.

Then we are better off without them? But the point above worries me... 

I think we're better off without them because the don't like some fundamental EU principles, that's all.
And it's unfortunate: the UK is a major european nation, I'd much prefer them to be pro-EU and working from the inside to make it better. But, as we've seen, this is not possible at the moment so a split is inevitable.

Of course it doesn't mean the EU and the UK will be at war in 2 months (even if, commercially, it will be something fairly close to a war).