Brexit or not ?

[BozoCRO]

And that's why the EU ties "free trading" with "free moving".

So you can move to Turkey, Serbia or South Korea just like that???! Those countries also have free trading contracts with EU. Probably many others but can't think of any at the moment.

You're mixing up stuff man.

What the EU says is: if you want to trade with the EU with the same conditions as EU states, then you have to adopt this or that rule.
Each state is free to decline the offer of course, in which case a one-to-one deal is negotiated. Of course the conditions can't be the same.

You're the one tying free trading with free movement, not me Negotiation implies "barganing" not implying your will to the other party right?

The point was if EU doesn't want Swiss goods they can pivot to other markets. The number of rich people in developing countries is growing every day.

Sure. But 56% of CH exports goes into the EU. Plus there's another detail: CH is in the middle of the EU ...

But it's wasted time to discuss this: we'll see how it ends soon.

This says it's more like ~30%
http://www.worldstopexports.com/switzerlands-top-import-partners/
With Germany being half of it.
If you click Deficits an even more interesting story unfolds. I am sure the first 4 countries would easily give up exports to Switzerland in the name of "european spirit" 
So you are impling EU would impose sanctions on Switzerland?! (see how spinning statements can work both ways)

Some interesting statistics if you take a look at UK as well (to stay somewhat on topic)
http://www.worldstopexports.com/united-kingdoms-top-import-partners/
About 35% of UK exports are with EU, on the other hand 7 out of top 10 countries that have more export then import with UK are members of EU.
I don't think it's in EU's best interest to break free trade contracts with UK. 

I prefer to face a future with powerful countries as China and India with a strong EU, instead as a single little nation.

Well it seems it going to be a wee bit weaker in a year or two.

That's a prediction and not a fact. Let's see.
But even it the EU will be weaker than today (which I don' think), it would be easier to deal with China as the EU, instead of as France or Spain.

In terms of size, population and finacial power it will certainly be weaker. Unless you know another european-ish country that could replace UK?
Turkey? Israel? Maghreb countries? What about civil rights? Or are we going to look away?

If we listened to the UK, the EU would only be a marketplace, nothing more.

Then we are better off without them? But the point above worries me... 

I think we're better off without them because the don't like some fundamental EU principles, that's all.
And it's unfortunate: the UK is a major european nation, I'd much prefer them to be pro-EU and working from the inside to make it better. But, as we've seen, this is not possible at the moment so a split is inevitable.

Of course it doesn't mean the EU and the UK will be at war in 2 months (even if, commercially, it will be something fairly close to a war).

I think so too, we'll replace them with Tunisia, Marocco and Israel. Those are some excellent examples of fundamental EU principles. 

[HornetMaX]

Bozo, the EU tries to put its principles forward. Countries that do not want to adhere can stay out.
For trade negotiations the EU is ok to strike a more favorable deal if some of its principles are accepted and applied. It's very straightforward.

You think CH and UK are strong enough to bend that ? Good, let's see. For CH at least we should know soon.

Sure. But 56% of CH exports goes into the EU. Plus there's another detail: CH is in the middle of the EU ...

This says it's more like ~30%
http://www.worldstopexports.com/switzerlands-top-import-partners/

No. On your own link it says "From a continental perspective, 44.8% of Switzerland's total exports by value in 2015 were delivered to other European trade partners."

So you are impling EU would impose sanctions on Switzerland?! (see how spinning statements can work both ways)

No. I'm implying that the Eu is telling CH right now that if CH withdraws the agreement on free movement of people, the EU will withdraw the favorable commercial conditions put in place with CH.
Actually it's not me implying it, it has been declared very clearly by the relevant people involved.

[HornetMaX]

On the CH subject, this is pre-Brexit: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35615604

[BozoCRO]

Bozo, the EU tries to put its principles forward. Countries that do not want to adhere can stay out.
For trade negotiations the EU is ok to strike a more favorable deal if some of its principles are accepted and applied. It's very straightforward.

You think CH and UK are strong enough to bend that ? Good, let's see. For CH at least we should know soon.

By putting it's principles forward you mean strike the fear of God if anyone else thinks of doing what UK just did? 
When you "give" something to someone and later ask for it back, to me it shows weakness not principles.

Yes I do belive nothing will change in the long run. UK will join EFTA and carry on doing business with EU just like CH. Even more they wont be forced to pour money into development funds like CH because UK imports from EU are far greater then CH. And a lack of those would hurt EU far more then in case of CH.

Sure. But 56% of CH exports goes into the EU. Plus there's another detail: CH is in the middle of the EU ...

This says it's more like ~30%
http://www.worldstopexports.com/switzerlands-top-import-partners/

No. On your own link it says "From a continental perspective, 44.8% of Switzerland's total exports by value in 2015 were delivered to other European trade partners."[/quote]

EFTA and CEFTA countries are also parts of Europe, just not EU. 

So you are impling EU would impose sanctions on Switzerland?! (see how spinning statements can work both ways)

No. I'm implying that the Eu is telling CH right now that if CH withdraws the agreement on free movement of people, the EU will withdraw the favorable commercial conditions put in place with CH.
Actually it's not me implying it, it has been declared very clearly by the relevant people involved.
[/quote]

Ok, but there is still the non minimum wage thing. What about that? They may want our best doctors, scientists and whatever, but would you want to go work there for nothing? Because they may offer you exactly that...

[HornetMaX]

By putting it's principles forward you mean strike the fear of God if anyone else thinks of doing what UK just did? 
When you "give" something to someone and later ask for it back, to me it shows weakness not principles.

That's hilarious ! It's CH that signed something and now is pondering taking it back ...
They accepted free movement of people in exchange of a trade deal: now their are pondering about withdrawing/limiting the free movement thing (which is their right, of course).
So the EU ponders withdrawing/limiting the trade deal (and other things). What's wrong with that ? It's just usual practice in any kind of deal with Terms&Conditions ...

Ok, but there is still the non minimum wage thing. What about that? They may want our best doctors, scientists and whatever, but would you want to go work there for nothing? Because they may offer you exactly that...

The min wage thing is a purely CH-internal discussion, the EU has not bearing on that. So it's up to the CH people to decide.
If CH pays 1CHF per heart transplant, no heart surgeon will go there. Up to them to strike the good balance between how many heart surgeons they need and how much they want to pay for them.

I can tell you first hand that people in CH universities (where my wife still works occasionally, we've spent a year there) are *very* concerned about what will happen, because they can see beyond trade deals, unlike others.

[HornetMaX]

Where are the conspiracy theory people when you need them ?

Rumours flew about Murdoch not liking BoJo and bam, BoJo down.

Now Rupert throws a grader party and next morning bam, Nigel down: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3673280/Rupert-Murdoch-Liam-Fox-Nigel-Farage-Union-Flag-shoes-garden-party-held-billionaire-Evgeny-Lebedev-Lily-Allen-capture-thing-Twitter.html

Let me guess, Murdoch works for the CIA ?

[disclaimer: I don't care about miss Allen, wouldn't be able to cite a single song, if singing is what she still does]

[BozoCRO]

That's hilarious ! It's CH that signed something and now is pondering taking it back ...
They accepted free movement of people in exchange of a trade deal: now their are pondering about withdrawing/limiting the free movement thing (which is their right, of course).
So the EU ponders withdrawing/limiting the trade deal (and other things). What's wrong with that ? It's just usual practice in any kind of deal with Terms&Conditions ...

Both sides signed agreements that work both ways. Both EU goods and Swiss goods have same treatmant. It's not one sided as you are trying to present it.
Even more important, more goods come to CH then CH exports to EU.

The min wage thing is a purely CH-internal discussion, the EU has not bearing on that. So it's up to the CH people to decide.
If CH pays 1CHF per heart transplant, no heart surgeon will go there. Up to them to strike the good balance between how many heart surgeons they need and how much they want to pay for them.

So you don't agree that min wage thing is a filter to keep unwanted migrants out?

I can tell you first hand that people in CH universities (where my wife still works occasionally, we've spent a year there) are *very* concerned about what will happen, because they can see beyond trade deals, unlike others.

I can tell you first hand that so far the only place I was labeled as a "Slav not to be trusted" is ...drumrool... Switzerland. So Iam not disillusioned about world. I am just trying to say the way things really are, and not idealize any system. Regardless if it's called EU or non EU.
Do you like me more now then you did 3 years ago when I wasn't in the EU?

[HornetMaX]

That's hilarious ! It's CH that signed something and now is pondering taking it back ...
They accepted free movement of people in exchange of a trade deal: now their are pondering about withdrawing/limiting the free movement thing (which is their right, of course).
So the EU ponders withdrawing/limiting the trade deal (and other things). What's wrong with that ? It's just usual practice in any kind of deal with Terms&Conditions ...

Both sides signed agreements that work both ways. Both EU goods and Swiss goods have same treatmant. It's not one sided as you are trying to present it.
Even more important, more goods come to CH then CH exports to EU.

It doesn't matter: the EU is ready to put its side of the deal on the table. Is Switzerland ? Maybe yes, maybe no. We'll see.

So you don't agree that min wage thing is a filter to keep unwanted migrants out?

I don't agree.  In CH, even without the minimum wage a bus driver earns more than a university professor in France.
According to your reasoning CH should be already invaded by immigrants seeking jobs there.

I can tell you first hand that so far the only place I was labeled as a "Slav not to be trusted" is ...drumrool... Switzerland.

Idiots exist in every country. If you pass by France (or Italy), I can surely put you in touch with people that share the same opinion about you: funny enough, they are mostly against Europe ...

Do you like me more now then you did 3 years ago when I wasn't in the EU?

I like you the same, but I'm glad that your country has decided to join the european project.

I think a properly working EU would bring benefits to both its founding (and supposedly richer) member states and the more recent (and supposedly poorer) member states.
Again, it's far from perfect right now, we all agree. But killing it would be a giant leap backward.

[BozoCRO]

I like you the same, but I'm glad that your country has decided to join the european project.

I think a properly working EU would bring benefits to both its founding (and supposedly richer) member states and the more recent (and supposedly poorer) member states.
Again, it's far from perfect right now, we all agree. But killing it would be a giant leap backward.

See I am not. Not for any emotional reasons, just purely pragmatic.
I don't know anyone, still living here, who profited from our EU membership. Not one single person or small/family business.
Secondly, 3-4 years ago when we had the referendum to join any form of criticism or even a call for a public debate was ridiculed by mainstream media and political parties. Getting in at any cost was a national goal. It reminded me of Orwell's 1984. 
As a result only about 30% of voters bothered to vote in a all time low turnout. And still here we are. In the same problems we were 3 years ago. Only a little bit poorer.
So what exactly does EU offer that couldn't be done without it? What makes it so precious that anyone who expresses doubt about it is instantly called an idiot or worse?
Do we still live in an age of dogmatic idols? 

[HornetMaX]

What makes it so precious that anyone who expresses doubt about it is instantly called an idiot or worse?

By who ?

[Hawk]

I think a properly working EU would bring benefits to both its founding (and supposedly richer) member states and the more recent (and supposedly poorer) member states.
Again, it's far from perfect right now, we all agree. But killing it would be a giant leap backward.

Killing it is probably the only thing that will create change for the EU..... At the moment they won't listen to any calls for change, but maybe now the UK have voted to leave the EU they might just realise that the EU system has got to change or it will die a slow and painful death as other countries(when they see the UK doing a lot better) leave the EU too.

The irony is that the UK leaving the EU will probably force changes that make the EU into a working system that the UK would've quite happily stayed inside.....
But like always it's left to the brave and courageous ones to make the first move that creates changes for the better in this world regardless of all the doom and gloom predicted by their actions from the other weak minded fools who are afraid of change and would rather lie with the devil they already know than risk a chance for the better..... that pathetic attitude just leads to stagnation and social degeneration. The sad thing is that 48% of the UK voters cannot see it, and some of them are even still under the illusion that they can overturn the referendum result. 

Hawk.

[CapeDoctor]

lol, just heard the latest catch word this morning    -     brexodus     

[HornetMaX]

Killing it is probably the only thing that will create change for the EU..... At the moment they won't listen to any calls for change, but maybe now the UK have voted to leave the EU they might just realise that the EU system has got to change or it will die a slow and painful death as other countries(when they see the UK doing a lot better) leave the EU too.

The irony is that the UK leaving the EU will probably force changes that make the EU into a working system that the UK would've quite happily stayed inside.....
But like always it's left to the brave and courageous ones to make the first move that creates changes for the better in this world regardless of all the doom and gloom predicted by their actions from the other weak minded fools who are afraid of change and would rather lie with the devil they already know than risk a chance for the better..... that pathetic attitude just leads to stagnation and social degeneration. The sad thing is that 48% of the UK voters cannot see it, and some of them are even still under the illusion that they can overturn the referendum result. 

Sounds like you accuse others of doom mongering by doom mongering a fair bit yourself ...
But it's fine I guess, as you're with the (quote) "brave and courageous ones" while the others are with the (quote) "weak minded fools".

In the meantime: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36699642
There's no fear of business leaving the UK (brave ones don't trust the doom mongering), but let's cut corp taxes, just to be on the safe side ...
And this, of course, will benefit the common people a lot I guess.

[Hawk]

Killing it is probably the only thing that will create change for the EU..... At the moment they won't listen to any calls for change, but maybe now the UK have voted to leave the EU they might just realise that the EU system has got to change or it will die a slow and painful death as other countries(when they see the UK doing a lot better) leave the EU too.

The irony is that the UK leaving the EU will probably force changes that make the EU into a working system that the UK would've quite happily stayed inside.....
But like always it's left to the brave and courageous ones to make the first move that creates changes for the better in this world regardless of all the doom and gloom predicted by their actions from the other weak minded fools who are afraid of change and would rather lie with the devil they already know than risk a chance for the better..... that pathetic attitude just leads to stagnation and social degeneration. The sad thing is that 48% of the UK voters cannot see it, and some of them are even still under the illusion that they can overturn the referendum result. 

Sounds like you accuse others of doom mongering by doom mongering a fair bit yourself ...
But it's fine I guess, as you're with the (quote) "brave and courageous ones" while the others are with the (quote) "weak minded fools".

In the meantime: http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36699642
There's no fear of business leaving the UK (brave ones don't trust the doom mongering), but let's cut corp taxes, just to be on the safe side ...
And this, of course, will benefit the common people a lot I guess.

Just shows the differing points of view on show here Max..... I wouldn't consider the death of the EU system as it is now doom-mongering(you obviously would consider it a bad thing?)..... If you find a cancer(EU Commission) among good nations then you cut it out, right?

Lol..... You pick probably the only story the news has covered in the last two week about a questionable positive of leaving the EU..... Can you show me three? No, I will be kind to you... Show me just 2 more positive stories from the BBC, and I bet you cannot find them, which just goes to prove my point. 

When you can show me a full day of news-clips talking about the positives of leaving the EU against just maybe at best one or 2 clips during the day of negatives then I will stop talking about the doom-mongers, because there is no doubt at all that the news/media is totally bias towards those that support leaving the EU right now.... I can't turn on any news or talk shows without them talking down leaving the EU and talking about EU leave voters as if they are some-kind of delinquent species who aren't educated enough to realise what they have done to the UK and EU. That is why I label remain voters as doom-mongers Max.... but I guess we'll all just have to wait a few good years to see what the result of leaving the EU will actually be, right. 

Hawk.

[HornetMaX]

Lol..... You pick probably the only story the news has covered in the last two week about a questionable positive of leaving the EU..... Can you show me three? No, I will be kind to you... Show me just 2 more positive stories from the BBC, and I bet you cannot find them, which just goes to prove my point. 

Because you think cutting corp taxes is positive for you ?