PiBoSo Official Forum

I am interested in how many people here use TCS.

I like a little bit until I learn a bike/circuit. For bumpy/slick circuits or Motogp bikes it's a good safety net, so i'll leave it on but fairly low.

No TCS here

Yes and no lol. Really depends but mainly no!

Big yes with the SBK bikes though!

I am specifically interested in the TCS usage on the 800 and 1000cc bikes (with qualy engine mapping).

I couldn´t use the qualy engine map on the Gp12 at all. I´m slower with the qualy map as with the race map.
I definitive use the TCS , AW on the GP12 but i´m still experimenting knowing that the fastest riders did not use much TCS or AW at all  ;)
Think you should rename the Topic to "Who uses TC on the MotoGP Bikes?"
It still depends on the bike!

[OT]
For my taste the TC is by now not close to reality:
- in MotoGP you can adjust the TC for every gear!
- TC mostly used in gear 1-4 (depending on track)
- the "sample rate" (i will call it that way) of the Murusama TC is way to low (don´t know how to describe it better)
- These things should be updated in future betas.

Quote from: C21 on June 02, 2015, 06:41:28 AM
- the "sampe rate" (i will call it that way) of the Murusama TC is way to low (don´t know how to describe it better)

You really think the sample rate is too low?
Listen to the Ducati: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAefoAkoF8g


...Changed the Poll.

Personally I like to use bikes without TC because the engine cutting in and out while controlling the traction puts me off.

But also I would've thought that the modern MotoGP bikes would be almost unridable without using TC, so begs the question do we have the GPB MotoGP bike physics file setup correctly?

I could well be wrong.... but would be good to hear from anyone who has had experience riding a modern MotoGP bike to establish whether this would be so?

Hawk.

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 02, 2015, 06:58:51 PM
But also I would've thought that the modern MotoGP bikes would be almost unridable without using TC, so begs the question do we have the GPB MotoGP bike physics file setup correctly?

I could well be wrong.... but would be good to hear from anyone who has had experience riding a modern MotoGP bike to establish whether this would be so?

Wait, let me email Vale and Marc ... :)

I don't think modern bikes are unrideable without TC ... you'd "just" have to be much more careful opening the throttle in some situations.

MaX.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 02, 2015, 07:23:54 PM

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 02, 2015, 06:58:51 PM
But also I would've thought that the modern MotoGP bikes would be almost unridable without using TC, so begs the question do we have the GPB MotoGP bike physics file setup correctly?

I could well be wrong.... but would be good to hear from anyone who has had experience riding a modern MotoGP bike to establish whether this would be so?

Wait, let me email Vale and Marc ... :)

I don't think modern bikes are unrideable without TC ... you'd "just" have to be much more careful opening the throttle in some situations.

MaX.

Lol... I didn't realise you walked in such high places Max!  Can you get me an autograph too?! ;D
I'm always an optimist Max, and you never know... we might just have a MotoGP rider in our midsts..... Somewhere?  ;D

In answer to your second paragraph: That also begs the question that if the bikes are rideable without TC then why on earth do they have it?

Hawk.

I think for qualifying some riders turn TC right down in motogp.. Turn it up for the race to manage the tyres and probably fuel.

In GPB I think the 990 handles alot better (more stable) without TC.. Seems too agressive cutting in/out..

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 02, 2015, 07:43:49 PM
In answer to your second paragraph: That also begs the question that if the bikes are rideable without TC then why on earth do they have it?

Simply because with it they can go faster.

MaX.

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/Sep/120918mq2s.htm

Quote from: vin97 on June 02, 2015, 10:10:52 PM
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/Sep/120918mq2s.htm

Yeah ... sort of ... that's the very same guy that a few weeks ago declared himself very deceived that Honda didn't call him to replace Pedrosa ...

He's one of my fav riders of all times, but sometimes his declarations kinda stink ...

MaX.

Nice link maybe he should try just the mere 260bhp and no electronics first see how that goes.

I feel smoke being blown .....

Mind you 750cc 2 strokes - yummy  :o

It will be interesting to see if they will use less traction control in the next few years when they have more fuel in MotoGP.

Maybe we will see them slide a bit more like in the early 2000s.



In my opinion, all bikes in GP Bikes are more ridable without TCS (not just the bikes with more progressive rear tyre physics).

I am also looking forward to the spec ECU for MotoGP in 2016 (or was it 2017?).

Currently, a big reason why the small teams are slower than the factory teams is because they don't have the fancy electronics to use the engine as efficiently possible.

Quote from: vin97 on June 02, 2015, 10:10:52 PM
http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2013/Sep/120918mq2s.htm

Now here's one guy that knows what he's talking about and what is needed to bring MotoGP back to solely man and machine racing like it used to be in the classic years.....

Nice one Stoner!!  ;D ;D

Hawk.

Lol, ...a real man  ;D
I though so you will like his words hahah

Quote from: Warlock on June 03, 2015, 12:23:30 AM
Lol, ...a real man  ;D
I though so you will like his words hahah

Hehe..... Absolutely. I always had the impression that Stoner was a real racer at heart with the way he used to ride that Honda and Ducati. His statements made my day!  ;D ;D

Hawk.

QuoteYou really think the sample rate is too low?

QuoteIn GPB I think the 990 handles alot better (more stable) without TC.. Seems too agressive cutting in/out..

That´s what i wanted to say.....TC too agressive on standart setting.
It can be done better....i´ve worked on the TC at my SC59 mod in B4b and so i can say that the TC cuts too harsh. ;)

The video of the Duc is nice :-)
But every manufacturer uses his own TC setting and software.
And every rider has a different riding style....
Look at the M1 video....do you hear the TC cutting in? Not really. Did it mean the rider was riding without TC? Not really  ;)
Configurung the TC (in real life) software is not that easy as it seems to be.....

QuoteCurrently, a big reason why the small teams are slower than the factory teams is because they don't have the fancy electronics to use the engine as efficiently possible.

There is a lot more why the smaller teams are slower but the Magneti Marelli Open class ECU is a big step backward compared to the factory software and ECU, yes.
Hopefully in 2016 the grid is closer at the end of the race when only one MGP ECU is used and all teams have the same software.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 02, 2015, 10:00:21 PM

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 02, 2015, 07:43:49 PM
In answer to your second paragraph: That also begs the question that if the bikes are rideable without TC then why on earth do they have it?

Simply because with it they can go faster.

MaX.

so why in this game you can go faster without tc?

Quoteso why in this game you can go faster without tc?

because the riders have the skills  ;D

and the TC (in the basic setting (not modded)) cuts in too harsh and kill the laptime and forward acceleration.

you can accelerate faster:
TC off, gently throttle opening , no or minor slip on the rear and a constant lift of the front wheel -> better stability of the bike
than
TC on, harsh opening of the throttle, rear slides out, lift gets the front wheel up, TC and AW cuts in, time loss.... -> instability of the bike

Quote from: -aGy- on June 03, 2015, 07:38:40 AM

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 02, 2015, 10:00:21 PM

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 02, 2015, 07:43:49 PM
In answer to your second paragraph: That also begs the question that if the bikes are rideable without TC then why on earth do they have it?

Simply because with it they can go faster.

so why in this game you can go faster without tc?

Because it's a game. Because TC implementation in GPB may not be as good as a real life TC (especially a motogp one). Because in GPB you don't die when you lowside at 200Kmh.

I can go on for half a day with the list but I guess the point is clear :)

MaX.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 03, 2015, 09:03:29 AM

Quote from: -aGy- on June 03, 2015, 07:38:40 AM

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 02, 2015, 10:00:21 PM

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 02, 2015, 07:43:49 PM
In answer to your second paragraph: That also begs the question that if the bikes are rideable without TC then why on earth do they have it?

Simply because with it they can go faster.

so why in this game you can go faster without tc?

Because it's a game. Because TC implementation in GPB may not be as good as a real life TC (especially a motogp one). Because in GPB you don't die when you lowside at 200Kmh.

I can go on for half a day with the list but I guess the point is clear :)

MaX.

Not being afraid to crash is a great speed boost :P

Quote from: matty0l215 on June 03, 2015, 09:12:01 AM

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 03, 2015, 09:03:29 AM

Quote from: -aGy- on June 03, 2015, 07:38:40 AM

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 02, 2015, 10:00:21 PM

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 02, 2015, 07:43:49 PM
In answer to your second paragraph: That also begs the question that if the bikes are rideable without TC then why on earth do they have it?

Simply because with it they can go faster.

so why in this game you can go faster without tc?

Because it's a game. Because TC implementation in GPB may not be as good as a real life TC (especially a motogp one). Because in GPB you don't die when you lowside at 200Kmh.

I can go on for half a day with the list but I guess the point is clear :)

MaX.

Not being afraid to crash is a great speed boost :P

This is the exact reason I advocate that if you crash during a race you out..... This would stop the kamakazi attitude and make riders a lot more weary of falling off just as in real life. I honestly think that the respawn in races is VERY arcady and doesn't belong in a sim game at all. Contraversial? Yes, but I guess only those who like games like RIDE would not like this at all?  :P ::)

But I would also stress that until we have bike physics that are very accurate and stable and track surfaces that allow for a stable ride I can understand the current need for respawn, but once GPB is fully developed I would certainly like to see the respawn in races dropped altogether to stop this gamey kamakazi rider attitude.

Hawk.

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 03, 2015, 10:06:49 AM
This is the exact reason I advocate that if you crash during a race you out..... This would stop the kamakazi attitude and make riders a lot more weary of falling off just as in real life. I honestly think that the respawn in races is VERY arcady and doesn't belong in a sim game at all. Contraversial? Yes, but I guess only those who like games like RIDE would not like this at all?  :P ::)

But I would also stress that until we have bike physics that are very accurate and stable and track surfaces that allow for a stable ride I can understand the current need for respawn, but once GPB is fully developed I would certainly like to see the respawn in races dropped altogether to stop this gamey kamakazi rider attitude.

100% my thoughts....

Btw, in beta5c I could ride a whole race without falling. GPB should aim at not allowing on-track respawns at all imo. Also, riding a modern-motogp-class bike in GPB without TC should be pretty much a suicide commando, just like irl. Otherwise the simulation needs improvement.

If you want to be consistent and fast, definitely you need to use TC. As Sbk champ riders; I think we all use it. Its true that, at least I'm my case, when I'm using qualifying tires I use LESS TC, but never without TC.
About antiwheelie, I never use it at all in any bike. You loose a lot of time using it, it cuts everywhere

The tracks where i don't use tcs are the tracks where i go on the kerb, that's rare.
I you enable tcs and go on kerbs the bikes has bad reaction, because the rear wheel touch the ground, don't touch the ground, touch the ground and so and so and the tcs is calibrated to cut engine when rear wheel slides.
Now i use tcs for all bikes, on the other hand i didn't use it with older GPBikes version.

QuoteThis is the exact reason I advocate that if you crash during a race you out..... This would stop the kamakazi attitude and make riders a lot more weary of falling off just as in real life. I honestly think that the respawn in races is VERY arcady and doesn't belong in a sim game at all. Contraversial? Yes, but I guess only those who like games like RIDE would not like this at all?  :P ::)

But I would also stress that until we have bike physics that are very accurate and stable and track surfaces that allow for a stable ride I can understand the current need for respawn, but once GPB is fully developed I would certainly like to see the respawn in races dropped altogether to stop this gamey kamakazi rider attitude.

i disagree in that case.
like in real life it should depend on the damage on the bike.
If you have a lowside on a slow corner you should be able to pick up the bike and reenter the race (respawn).
At higher speeds (highside in 200km/H corne) the game should be finished  :)

Quote from: C21 on June 03, 2015, 11:00:34 AM

QuoteThis is the exact reason I advocate that if you crash during a race you out..... This would stop the kamakazi attitude and make riders a lot more weary of falling off just as in real life. I honestly think that the respawn in races is VERY arcady and doesn't belong in a sim game at all. Contraversial? Yes, but I guess only those who like games like RIDE would not like this at all?  :P ::)

But I would also stress that until we have bike physics that are very accurate and stable and track surfaces that allow for a stable ride I can understand the current need for respawn, but once GPB is fully developed I would certainly like to see the respawn in races dropped altogether to stop this gamey kamakazi rider attitude.

i disagree in that case.
like in real life it should depend on the damage on the bike.
If you have a lowside on a slow corner you should be able to pick up the bike and reenter the race (respawn).
At higher speeds (highside in 200km/H corne) the game should be finished  :)

Well I wouldn't disagree with your disagreement so long as bike damage was also built into GPB for any crashes; after all, brake and clutch levers, footrests, even fairings can be damaged in slow accidents to the extent that the bike cannot continue safely. But simple respawn as it is now should eventually upon full GPB dev, stop in my opinion.

Nicely qualified disagreement there C21.  ;)

Hawk.
Does your disagreement mean your a RIDE fan? Lol. (Maybe not as you didn't really completely disagree.) :P ;D

Quote
Well I wouldn't disagree with your disagreement so long as bike damage was also built into GPB for any crashes; after all, brake and clutch levers, footrests, even fairings can be damaged in slow accidents to the extent that the bike cannot continue safely. But simple respawn as it is now should eventually upon full GPB dev, stop in my opinion.

Bike damage is part of a simulation isn´t it?  :)
Maybe we you agree on this:
1 respawn allowed per race.   ;)

Like aliens I wasn't going to mention this, I had filed it under a brain trick, but then at one of our races Hawk said after he crashed the bike seemed un-rideable and I have thought that a few times too (losing the front continuously)?

Should I wrap that thought back up and deny everything or is there something in it?

Quote from: Stout Johnson on June 03, 2015, 10:24:30 AM
Also, riding a modern-motogp-class bike in GPB without TC should be pretty much a suicide commando, just like irl.

I disagree: (top) riders rode 500cc 2-strokes bikes with stupid power delivery without TC. So a modern 4-stroke is definitely doable. With care, but doable :)

MaX.

Yeah, in fact Casey Stoner (and sometimes Rossi) used to disconnect TC completely for qualifying a few years back so no TC is OK for a GP rider. Nowadays though, it's so sophisticated and smooth that they're actually faster with it so they keep it even in qualifying (but I do suspect Marquez removes it sometimes).

To be honest I think in GP bikes the TC model is much less smooth than a modern road bike is in real life... It cuts the ignition really hard in GP Bikes, kind of like the 2011 Kawasaki ZX10R (all my friends disconnect it for racing).

To be honest I'm maybe going to try a 2015 Yamaha R1 in 12 days at the track so maybe I can provide feedback but I'm not sure yet so I try not to get too excited :P

Quote from: C21 on June 03, 2015, 11:56:33 AM

Quote
Well I wouldn't disagree with your disagreement so long as bike damage was also built into GPB for any crashes; after all, brake and clutch levers, footrests, even fairings can be damaged in slow accidents to the extent that the bike cannot continue safely. But simple respawn as it is now should eventually upon full GPB dev, stop in my opinion.

Bike damage is part of a simulation isn´t it?  :)
Maybe we you agree on this:
1 respawn allowed per race.   ;)

Yes of course bike damage should be part of a simulation, but unfortunately crash damage is not in GPB at this time apart from engines blowing up.

I thought we'd already agreed with each other that when bike crash damage was implemented into GPB that respawn(hopefully with rider animated running back and picking the bike up and getting back onto his bike), and so long as the bike wasn't damaged from the crash, that was the only time a respawn(for want of a better word)as such should be allowed?  :)
But non of this will be a good thing until GPB is fully developed and stable. Let's wait and see what happens in future.  ;)

Hawk.

Quote from: EdouardB on June 03, 2015, 01:38:42 PM
Yeah, in fact Casey Stoner (and sometimes Rossi) used to disconnect TC completely for qualifying a few years back so no TC is OK for a GP rider. Nowadays though, it's so sophisticated and smooth that they're actually faster with it so they keep it even in qualifying (but I do suspect Marquez removes it sometimes).

To be honest I think in GP bikes the TC model is much less smooth than a modern road bike is in real life... It cuts the ignition really hard in GP Bikes, kind of like the 2011 Kawasaki ZX10R (all my friends disconnect it for racing).

To be honest I'm maybe going to try a 2015 Yamaha R1 in 12 days at the track so maybe I can provide feedback but I'm not sure yet so I try not to get too excited :P

I really hope you do get a ride on the R1 Edouard. We really could do with some genuine feedback on these MOTOGP bikes. My fingers crossed for you mate... Good luck!!  ;D ;D 8)

Hawk.

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 03, 2015, 05:53:55 PM

Quote from: EdouardB on June 03, 2015, 01:38:42 PM
To be honest I'm maybe going to try a 2015 Yamaha R1 in 12 days at the track so maybe I can provide feedback but I'm not sure yet so I try not to get too excited :P

I really hope you do get a ride on the R1 Edouard. We really could do with some genuine feedback on these MOTOGP bikes. My fingers crossed for you mate... Good luck!!  ;D ;D 8)

EdoaurdB said an R1, not an M1. So unless it's a typo, he'll "just" ride an R1 (maybe a race-spec SBK one, which should still be amazing).

I'd be utterly surprised if yamaha (or others) would allow "normal" people to try their motogp machines (not even the old ones).

MaX.

Yes... my mistake Max.  :P :)

Hawk.

Yeah I was talking about the R1 which is about as close to motogp electronics as it gets without actually riding a motogp. The bike will be pretty close to standard, no wsbk spec.
I probably will never get a chance to ride a motogp bike (but I may ride a factory YZR500 at some point, depends how much my mechanic trusts me :-\ he owns 4 of them - probably never going to happen though :-()

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 03, 2015, 12:20:31 PM

Quote from: Stout Johnson on June 03, 2015, 10:24:30 AM
Also, riding a modern-motogp-class bike in GPB without TC should be pretty much a suicide commando, just like irl.

I disagree: (top) riders rode 500cc 2-strokes bikes with stupid power delivery without TC. So a modern 4-stroke is definitely doable. With care, but doable :)

I should have known you would be taking my comment literally :) of course riding without TC is possible for professional riders. BUT riding competitively without TC AND trying to avoid regular reconstructional surgeries on several bones would be pretty much impossible. That is why I (along with some other) would welcome more realism in terms of crashes and corresponding results for the rider.

Quote from: Stout Johnson on June 03, 2015, 09:01:59 PM

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 03, 2015, 12:20:31 PM

Quote from: Stout Johnson on June 03, 2015, 10:24:30 AM
Also, riding a modern-motogp-class bike in GPB without TC should be pretty much a suicide commando, just like irl.

I disagree: (top) riders rode 500cc 2-strokes bikes with stupid power delivery without TC. So a modern 4-stroke is definitely doable. With care, but doable :)

I should have known you would be taking my comment literally :) of course riding without TC is possible for professional riders. BUT riding competitively without TC AND trying to avoid regular reconstructional surgeries on several bones would be pretty much impossible. That is why I (along with some other) would welcome more realism in terms of crashes and corresponding results for the rider.

Stoner agrees with us Stout, so I think we're on the right train of thought..... Scrap electronics on all racing bikes and lets get back to real man and machine racing, and if that means that riders cannot handle the current 4 stroke bikes then lets get back to real race bikes(2 Strokes  :P ). Controversy all around, but that's all that needs to be said. ;D

Hawk.

2-strokes would need TC more than 4-strokes ...

MaX.

In GPB.. without TC the bike handles smoother and all feels quite nice.. With TC you can go faster and hang it out more... but if you get out of shape the TC works against you.. Thats how it seems to me anyway.

I bet Alibaskins used TC for his 1:25 lap at victoria!

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 03, 2015, 05:53:55 PM

Quote from: EdouardB on June 03, 2015, 01:38:42 PM
Yeah, in fact Casey Stoner (and sometimes Rossi) used to disconnect TC completely for qualifying a few years back so no TC is OK for a GP rider. Nowadays though, it's so sophisticated and smooth that they're actually faster with it so they keep it even in qualifying (but I do suspect Marquez removes it sometimes).

To be honest I think in GP bikes the TC model is much less smooth than a modern road bike is in real life... It cuts the ignition really hard in GP Bikes, kind of like the 2011 Kawasaki ZX10R (all my friends disconnect it for racing).

To be honest I'm maybe going to try a 2015 Yamaha R1 in 12 days at the track so maybe I can provide feedback but I'm not sure yet so I try not to get too excited :P

I really hope you do get a ride on the R1 Edouard. We really could do with some genuine feedback on these MOTOGP bikes. My fingers crossed for you mate... Good luck!!  ;D ;D 8)

Hawk.

MotoGP Yamaha is a M1, not a R1. They do use the R1 in WSBK STK1000. And next year maybe WSBK if when Yamaha brings back a factory team.

To slow Max answer. :)

For me it's not so much who is using TC. It's all the people using 3rd person! ;)

I think third person in a simulation should be banned!!! If you want to see your rider, watch the reply! :D

All these years I would have agreed with you Klax, with as much passion.

But now I have mellowed and say 'meh' to it lol.

However "the Club" has Onboard View and DST-only Race suggestions planned where the real simmers will show through.  I mean no-one on the Best Laps server who got to the front using 3rd P really achieved anything did they? hahahahahaha 'meh'.

Surprised you haven't joined yet Klax, seems like your day is dawning.......

When beta 7 is released with I hope the fixes for DST, then I'll give DST another serious try.
I was actually going pretty good with DST with Klax's help in learning how to ride it, but the current bug with the steering off the start put me off it. But I'll certainly give it another go when beta 7 is released so long as Piboso has fixed the steering issue.

Hawk

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 03, 2015, 09:22:14 PM
Stoner agrees with us Stout, so I think we're on the right train of thought..... Scrap electronics on all racing bikes and lets get back to real man and machine racing, and if that means that riders cannot handle the current 4 stroke bikes then lets get back to real race bikes(2 Strokes  :P ). Controversy all around, but that's all that needs to be said. ;D

Like MaX said, 2strokes def more in need of TC than 4strokers - but I am sure you are aware of that.

Many here seem to have the perception that riding without TC is the way of "real men" and "natural" and everything else is for sissys. I would make a sure bet that every rider from the golden era of those 500cc 2stroke rockets would gladly have taken TC - if used with modern TC software of course. In fact it would have safed some lifes and kept some riders from being confined to a wheelchair.

I know that many riders (in fact the vast majority) disliked the early electronic helpers as much as that some just refused to use them. But that was mostly due to the crudeness of the early systems. They felt bad (boldly cutting combustion) and they made the lap times slower - the benefit was making crashes less likely. But the competitive riders would never accept slower lap times and the crudeness of those systems that felt like giving up the control over the bike.

interesting article here:
http://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/news-and-views/features/bikes/history-of-the-500cc-two-stroke-grand-prix-bike/#.VW91QJMTbIU

For many racing aficionados, Doohan's victories were the most dramatic of the whole two-stroke era. Good as his NSR Hondas were, the bikes were vicious, violent, tyre shredding animals which took not only a huge amount of riding skill to race but cojones the size of a fit Hereford bull. You either conquered these bikes or they broke your body. There was no middle ground!

And now for the big question. Speak to Kevin Schwantz, Mick Doohan or even Vale and they will tell you the same thing. Even with half the capacity of the current four-stroke MotoGP machines, if you ran a two-stroke today with the benefit of latest electronics and plenty of fuel capacity then this would be the machine to beat.


Imo, the bottom line is: it is a romantic feeling to consider riding a 200+hp/130kg monster (no matter if 2stroke or 4stroke, either way it is a monster) without any electronic helpers. There was a time where all was decided by cojones and talent because there were no electronic systems available (at least no competitive ones). But if we talk about the resemblence of modern motogp bikes in GPB, the importance of electronic helpers should be resembled. In general human reaction time is just not small enough to be able to compete with modern electronic sensors and computers.

It is a risk/reward calculation. Very good riders might (plus the prerequisite of good tyres) be able to be as fast or even faster without TC in terms of lap-times - but there would always be the Damocles sword of highsiding-into-the-stands dangling above their heads. Sooner or later even great riders would be thrown off their bikes and be looking up to riders being healthier and more constant with electronic helpers. And hand on heart - all cojones talk aside - irl health is a big issue and nobody would constantly risk his health just for the feeling of being able to "control it all" with no software in between the right hand and the rear wheel. Just my thoughts.

That should be resembled in GPB if we want a true sim. Therefore TC/AW simulation should be as close to real life as possible (I know it is hard to do as there is a whole industry developing software in that field for several decades). AND there should be some more realism when in comes to crash-penalty. Imo, a crude simulation of bike damage should be done in order to make sure there is no crash penalty except the mere time used to re-spawn one's bike - pretty arcadey the way it is handled atm. Imo, even a crude simulation of rider health would be cool for hardcore sim freaks, but not a must at all ;)

Just my thoughts, Stout.

Well, in my opinion no TCS is way more fun in GP Bikes.


Anyway, I admit that most of the time I ride in third person view.

But I have also done some laps in first person and while it takes a bit of time to get the lines right, the feel for the front wheel (especially under hard accaleration) is much better than in third person view. Wobbles and (big) wheelies out of high speed corners can be much better controlled (IMO).

I think that with some practice, it is possible to achieve faster lap times with the 2014 RCV in first person view than in third person view.

In 36 plus years of riding in real life I never  saw my own ass............POINT

TC is a system that works today so why not implement it in a sim.

DD

Its not who gets on the throttle first that wins.. Its who gets on full throttle first! ;)

TC needs many laps to set up so theres no doubt the riders are capable.. Go as fast as you can and then fine tune the TC to give you that bit extra..

On the exit of a corner, if you can set the TC to give you a perfect amount of traction and drive with 100% throttle and no need to feather it on... Who would say no to that? Lol

Quote from: Klax75 on June 03, 2015, 09:58:39 PM
For me it's not so much who is using TC. It's all the people using 3rd person! ;)

I think third person in a simulation should be banned!!! If you want to see your rider, watch the reply! :D

im with you on this

I could quote the entire post by Stout (above), but that wouldn't be very useful so I don't. 100% agreeing on what you wrote.

MaX.

Quote from: -aGy- on June 04, 2015, 06:07:51 AM

Quote from: Klax75 on June 03, 2015, 09:58:39 PM
For me it's not so much who is using TC. It's all the people using 3rd person! ;)

I think third person in a simulation should be banned!!! If you want to see your rider, watch the reply! :D

im with you on this

I can understand why.. but it depends on your idea of what simulation is.. some people want to ''feel'' like they are riding the bike.. with onboard view, handlebars even full motion rigs etc etc

for me personally.. simulation is what is happening on the screen infront of me, i like to see the bike doing realistic things.

Don't get me wrong guys..... I'm all for having TC in GPB to reflect the bikes in real life. I'm all for real simulation. What I'm advocating for in real life is the scrapping of TC and electronics altogether.

Of course some riders will prefer anything that makes riding easier and therefore safer for them to ride(same as many online gamers will use a cheat to get a better result than they otherwise could get). But as Bob stated above, tuning your TC so you can have your throttle at 100% on corner exit and get the correct amount of traction for greatest speed on exit is just not right in my opinion. It smacks of the bad old days of F1 were the cars were truly handling the cars and not the driver(note I didn't say the cars were driving the car. ). Basically the drivers just steered and throttled the car, the car would handle everything else; those electronic aids were banned the very next season.

As far as safety in bike racing is concerned. Hey! It's a dangerous sport. They all know the risks involved, so anyone who doesn't want to get hurt had better not compete because for sure at some time your going to get badly injured or killed, simple as that. The odds are always stacked against you in motorsport as far as your own safety is concerned. Accidents will happen no matter how good you think you are.

But some seem to want to continually bring in technology(supposedly in part for the sake of safety(finger down my throat - bork!) that will take the real riding skills away from the rider to the computer, ie, TC and electronic aids. As Bob said about tuning TC's for corner exits: That is and should be a rider skill using his throttle control, not something given over to a computer. It's no wonder they can all go fast these days! LOL

But anyway. Instead of me banging on for ages about this subject. I'll just finish by saying that yes, I'm all for simulating what is happening in real life into GPB, be it TC or whatever. As for my opinion on respawn, I have already posted previously here.

I get the impression that younsters these days just blindly accept this computer aided tech as a natural progression of the sport? It's not a progression at all! It's a contamination of the very soul of what motorsport is all about! Why can't you youngsters see that?!  ::) ::)

Okay.... I'm just an old fart that would like to see racing as it should be: Pure man and machine......  Not man > computer > machine = artificial result.

Let's see a riders real skills, eh.  :P

Hawk.

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 04, 2015, 08:30:04 AM
I get the impression that younsters these days just blindly accept this computer aided tech as a natural progression of the sport? It's not a progression at all! It's a contamination of the very soul of what motorsport is all about! Why can't you youngsters see that?!  ::) ::)

You answered yourself on the next line :)

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 04, 2015, 08:30:04 AM
Okay.... I'm just an old fart

On this:

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 04, 2015, 08:30:04 AM
But some seem to want to continually bring in technology(supposedly in part for the sake of safety(finger down my throat - bork!) that will take the real riding skills away from the rider to the computer, ie, TC and electronic aids.

Technology gets in because otherwise constructors would not be interested in MotoGP. That's something the old-farters do not seem to get :)

Out of curiosity, what's your stance on slipper clutches ?

MaX.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 04, 2015, 09:26:44 AM

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 04, 2015, 08:30:04 AM
I get the impression that younsters these days just blindly accept this computer aided tech as a natural progression of the sport? It's not a progression at all! It's a contamination of the very soul of what motorsport is all about! Why can't you youngsters see that?!  ::) ::)

You answered yourself on the next line :)

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 04, 2015, 08:30:04 AM
Okay.... I'm just an old fart

On this:

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 04, 2015, 08:30:04 AM
But some seem to want to continually bring in technology(supposedly in part for the sake of safety(finger down my throat - bork!) that will take the real riding skills away from the rider to the computer, ie, TC and electronic aids.

Technology gets in because otherwise constructors would not be interested in MotoGP. That's something the old-farters do not seem to get :)

Out of curiosity, what's your stance on slipper clutches ?

MaX.

Lol! I may be an old fart, but seems us old farts are the only ones who can see the damage electronic aids are doing to the soul of motor racing here.  :P  ;)

As for constructers not being interested in racing GP's if Electronic Aids weren't allowed..... I would call their bluff big time if that was the case(which I doubt). I cannot believe they are only in the sport to promote and develop aids. That doesn't make sense whatsoever. There is a lot more to being a part of motor racing and competing as a team than just that.

Slipper Clutches: If your trying to say that a slipper clutch is the same as an electronic aid, then your wrong. A slipper clutch for a 4 stroke bike is as necessary as the clutch is to change gears, or the spark plug is to ignite the petrol mixture(yes I know we have electronic ignitions knowadays. Lol.... Showing my age now. Hehe. But you get the idea.  :P ). Slipper clutches are there to smooth out what would otherwise be a very dangerous aspect of changing down gears on a 4 stroke bike, especially down-changing while entering a corner.
If I get what your trying to say, then why don't you say we should race with square wheels, because round ones aid in the smooth transition between road and bike. Lol.

But no. Slipper Clutches are not the same as an electronic aid - BIG DIFFERENCE and you know it. Lol  :P ;D

Hawk.

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 04, 2015, 10:51:07 AMA slipper clutch for a 4 stroke bike is as necessary as the clutch is to change gears, or the spark plug is to ignite the petrol mixture(yes I know we have electronic ignitions knowadays. Lol.... Showing my age now. Hehe. But you get the idea.  :P ). Slipper clutches are there to smooth out what would otherwise be a very dangerous aspect of changing down gears on a 4 stroke bike, especially down-changing while entering a corner.

What the hell are you talking about Hawk? (sorry :P) My 2003 yamaha R6 doesn't have a slipper clutch (the 0W01 I rode 2 weeks ago neither) and I'm perfectly fine with downshifts (but I do blip the throttle to match the RPM).
I've tried a 2008 yamaha R6 prepared for national Supersport championship with an evolved slipper clutch and I would say it's (at least to some extent) a rider aid. It makes blipping the throttle much less important, and basically the mecanism is equivalent to the rider slightly pulling the clutch in when the engine braking is too much...

Of course on top of that it's also an improvement to performance for braking stability but still, it makes riders downshift in a very lazy way...

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 04, 2015, 10:51:07 AM
Lol! I may be an old fart, but seems us old farts are the only ones who can see the damage electronic aids are doing to the soul of motor racing here.  :P  ;)

Which could be a signal you're screaming in the wrong direction.

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 04, 2015, 10:51:07 AM
As for constructers not being interested in racing GP's if Electronic Aids weren't allowed..... I would call their bluff big time if that was the case(which I doubt). I cannot believe they are only in the sport to promote and develop aids. That doesn't make sense whatsoever. There is a lot more to being a part of motor racing and competing as a team than just that.

Because you think the constructors join MotoGP for the sake of the beauty of racing, competition and measuring which rider is more ballsy ?
They are in the sport not to promote aids, they are in to promote sales (of their bikes). This involves making better bikes, which in turn involves technological progress.
And before you say that constructors are greedy bastards (which could be true), I note that your beloved riders (Stoner included) ride in the classes where the money is, no matter the rules.
If riders were as romantic as you, they would only compete in classes where every rider has the same bike. But that, well ... just doesn't happen.

The only romantic ones are the "old farts" ... not even all of them, because I'm an old fart too as you know :)

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 04, 2015, 10:51:07 AM
Slipper Clutches:

Luckly (for me) EdouardB replied to that :)

One more question for you and then I'll give you the diagnosis of the disease that is affecting you (I'm already pretty sure, but just to make the point very clear).

So: you're not against slipper clutches. Now, are you against electronic engine brake control ?

MaX.

Max: Nooo... I didn't say I was against Slipper Clutches at all. I said that they are a necessary part of a 4 stroke bike just the same as a clutch is to change gear. ie: If you didn't have a clutch then the gear change would be clunky, just as if you didn't have a slipper clutch on a 4 stroke then changing down gear into a corner would probably result in you falling flat on your arse. Both have there needs.

I'd have to say no I'm not against electronic engine brake control for the same above reasons. But if you'd have asked me: "Am I against electronic throttle control?" then I'd have to say yes because throttle control is a skill and judgment that should be totally down to a riders ability to control the bike(I'm talking here of an electronic throttle control that would stop a rider from spinning out exiting a corner or something similar).
Now do you understand what I'm getting at with electronic aids? Some have legitimate uses, most take away the riders skill and inputs in favour of computer(unskilled) inputs. That's what I think is wrong. In other words for want of a better way of putting it, and I'm way exaggerating here when I say a monkey could ride these modern bikes compared to the old classics(Remember I said I was exaggerating).  :P

So what's your diagnosis Doctor? Am I going to live!? Please tell me it's not terminal! Hehe. ;D

Hawk.

Let me know when you both get the Belgian chocolate (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=2358.msg33366#msg33366) out eh  :D

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 04, 2015, 12:56:27 PM
Let me know when you both get the Belgian chocolate (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=2358.msg33366#msg33366) out eh  :D

I might need more than Belgian Chocolate when Max replies.... I think the Doctor is thinking of putting me down. Hehe

An ice cold beer from the fridge I think. Lol  ;D

Hawk.

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 04, 2015, 12:55:13 PM
Max: Nooo... I didn't say I was against Slipper Clutches at all. I said that they are a necessary part of a 4 stroke bike just the same as a clutch is to change gear. ie: If you didn't have a clutch then the gear change would be clunky, just as if you didn't have a slipper clutch on a 4 stroke then changing down gear into a corner would probably result in you falling flat on your arse. Both have there needs.

That was my understanding of your position, you're not against slipper clutches (you can re-read my post above).
Of course they are not as needed as you said (as EdouardB confirmed), but that doesn't matter for the discussion.

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 04, 2015, 12:55:13 PM
I'd have to say no I'm not against electronic engine brake control for the same above reasons. But if you'd have asked me: "Am I against electronic throttle control?" then I'd have to say yes because throttle control is a skill and judgment that should be totally down to a riders ability to control the bike(I'm talking here of an electronic throttle control that would stop a rider from spinning out exiting a corner or something similar).
Now do you understand what I'm getting at with electronic aids? Some have legitimate uses, most take away the riders skill and inputs in favour of computer(unskilled) inputs. That's what I think is wrong. In other words for want of a better way of putting it, and I'm way exaggerating here when I say a monkey could ride these modern bikes compared to the old classics(Remember I said I was exaggerating).  :P

Being able to shift gears down without locking the rear is a skill, as EdouardB confirmed.

Your position is strange: you think there's skill involved in opening the throttle, hence you don't like TC, but you don't think there's skill involved in using engine brake and downshifting appropriately, hence you're not against slipper clutch nor electronic engine brake.

Slipper clutch and electronic engine brakes are both "aids" (as you like to call that stuff). They make the life of the rider simpler.
A steering damper is another example of aid (and it can be mechanical or electronic). The list is long, trust me.

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 04, 2015, 12:55:13 PM
So what's your diagnosis Doctor? Am I going to live!? Please tell me it's not terminal! Hehe. ;D

Diagnosis is: severe electronic-phobia coupled with a bit of misunderstanding of what MotoGp is and a bit of confusion about skill, balls etc.

It can't be treated, or at least I can't help you it seems. You'll live for a while, then you'll die.

Most likely not because of that specific disease, unless too much electronics will make you commit suicide (which is unlikely, because today's races, no matter what, are still plenty of fun to watch).

Now, let's talk about the fees for my services ... I doubt NHS can cover that, buy PayPal is OK to me :)

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 04, 2015, 12:56:27 PM
Let me know when you both get the Belgian chocolate (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=2358.msg33366#msg33366) out eh  :D

I'm under the impression that Hawk will get the chocolate only if you can certify that no electronics was involved in the production of that chocolate and that no aid has been used by the Maitre Chocolatier  ;D

MaX.

All fee's should be directed to my team Boss. I'm sure he'll be happy to oblige as and when you can cure me of my "Classic" romanticism .   :-\  ;)

Hawk.

TC or not, I think we can all agree that the amount of electronics they use in MotoGP nowadays is ridiculous.
You almost can't hear the individual downshifting on the Honda and they don't even have to use the clutch anymore.

Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 04, 2015, 02:59:01 AM
TC needs many laps to set up so theres no doubt the riders are capable.. Go as fast as you can and then fine tune the TC to give you that bit extra..

On the exit of a corner, if you can set the TC to give you a perfect amount of traction and drive with 100% throttle and no need to feather it on... Who would say no to that? Lol

Don't know, in my opinion it's more fun to tweak your throttle control rather than your TC settings.

Quote from: vin97 on June 04, 2015, 03:47:39 PM
TC or not, I think we can all agree that the amount of electronics they use in MotoGP nowadays is ridiculous.

I wouldn't say ridiculous, but there are things even me I dislike.
#1 on the list: any system that is aware of where on the track the bike is, in order to adapt any sort of bike parameters. This one is pure madness.

MaX.

Quote from: vin97 on June 04, 2015, 03:47:39 PM
TC or not, I think we can all agree that the amount of electronics they use in MotoGP nowadays is ridiculous.
You almost can't hear the individual downshifting on the Honda and they don't even have to use the clutch anymore.

Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 04, 2015, 02:59:01 AM
TC needs many laps to set up so theres no doubt the riders are capable.. Go as fast as you can and then fine tune the TC to give you that bit extra..

On the exit of a corner, if you can set the TC to give you a perfect amount of traction and drive with 100% throttle and no need to feather it on... Who would say no to that? Lol

Don't know, in my opinion it's more fun to tweak your throttle control rather than your TC settings.

It's becoming like Formula 1, where the car is way more important than the driver.

I did the Ron haslam race school with a few mates a while back (when they moved to silverstone) all there CBR600's have ABS... first time I rode a bike with ABS and I can honestly say that its incredible!! lol.

Bikes become easier and safer to ride which means you can go even faster....

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 04, 2015, 03:01:32 PM
All fee's should be directed to my team Boss. I'm sure he'll be happy to oblige as and when you can cure me of my "Classic" romanticism .   :-\  ;)

Hawk.

Pfft, I'm not getting in to this. lol

Quote from: Klax75 on June 04, 2015, 09:50:09 PM

Quote from: Hawk UK on June 04, 2015, 03:01:32 PM
All fee's should be directed to my team Boss. I'm sure he'll be happy to oblige as and when you can cure me of my "Classic" romanticism .   :-\  ;)

Hawk.

Pfft, I'm not getting in to this. lol

Lolz!  ;D

Don't worry Klax.... Max will never cure my "Classic" illness. Your wallet is safe with me.  ;D

Hawk.

So I said I would try a 2015 Yamaha R1 at a Yamaha event yesterday and give a feedback about Traction Control and how smooth/ brutal it can be compared to GP bikes traction control.

So first of all Yamaha France let me try the 2015 yamaha R1. I set the traction control to level 2 (out of 9 levels, so not very restrictive but enough to try), Slide Control to 2 out of 3.

Just before jumping on the bike the guy tells me it's actually the 106bhp French restricted version (bikes are restricted to 106bhp here, most people remove the limitation though, and at the racetrack everyone does - the restriction will be gone in 2016 after more than 20 years of stupidity???).
So I'm thinking this is stupid but hey, I'll try to look at the electronics and the chassis.

I could talk about the chassis in a different topic but here's my thought about the electronics.
After warming up the tyres I deliberately put my faith in the electronics and gave it a hard acceleration with a big lean angle. The rear only slided about 2cm maybe(?) before gripping again in a very smooth way. It was as if someone else took control of the throttle in a super smooth way. I was very surprised. The electronics were incredibly smooth, much much smoother than in GP bikes.
I wish I could have tried the 199bhp version but didn't get the chance. Overall I was frustrated with the bike, it didn't have enough power and just felt very limited. Over 8kRPM the bike basically kept the same acceleration all the way to 13.

After the ride I thanked the Yamaha guy (thanks Antoine) and he started trusting me I guess because after I told him I was frustrated by how slow the engine was, he pointed at a bike and said "you can try that one if you want". I took a look and the bike was a 2012 or 2013 yamaha R1 with full race body work and race tyres. I'm thinking this could be fun so I say yes of course :P (Part 1/2)

Now, I go get a closer look at the bike and I notice the radiator is huge, and I see lots of race details - I look at the dashboard, and now I realize this could be really good - I see a pit-lane limiter, stickers everywhere with switches for the maps and everything, no key, I'm thinking this is no standard bike so I ask what bike it is. Basically the bike was used for the French National Superbike championship a few years ago, is heavily prepared, 200bhp, lightened, lots of YEC parts etc.

So I went on the track for a full 20 min session on it and as soon as I accelerated I was like "holy f***" this bike accelerates so much harder than any standard R1 I've ever tried.

I set the TCS on 3 out of 6 levels (with the race TCS) to get a feel for how it works.

Basically the TCS was more brutal than the 2015 yamaha R1. But what was bad was the anti-wheelie part of the TCS. Almost as brutal as in GP bikes. It kept going TATATATATATA for the whole straight.
In fact sometimes my visor hit the windscreen a few times because of the ignition cut.
It was a handful because the bike was always on the limit of wheeling, with the front going a bit up, then down then up then down etc... Up until about 5th gear (the gearing was pretty short).
The shifter was pretty smooth though, but the 2015 yamaha R1 had a smoother one.

The acceleration itself was insane but honestly it got very physical although I do train a lot - after a while I thought "this is incredible fun but I don't know how long I can keep this pace without wearing myself out for the day".

(Also the front of the bike did move a lot because of the constant wheeling but much less than in GP bike.)

Overall I think that in GP bikes the electronics correspond to what was used maybe 5 years ago in competition. Now it's much smoother, including on a stock bike (the 2015 model). In fact I heard David Checa say that he likes the 2015 stock electronics better than the factory one he had last year... So they kept it on some of the WEC bikes for now.

I hope this helps a bit but I don't know what to say but shoot some questions if you want :)

Quote from: EdouardB on June 16, 2015, 08:54:54 AM
So first of all Yamaha France let me try the 2015 yamaha R1. I set the traction control to level 2 (out of 9 levels, so not very restrictive but enough to try), Slide Control to 2 out of 3.

So difference #1: GPB has TC, that bike had TC and slide control. That's already a big big difference.

Quote from: EdouardB on June 16, 2015, 08:54:54 AM
(bikes are restricted to 106bhp here, most people remove the limitation though, and at the racetrack everyone does - the restriction will be gone in 2016 after more than 20 years of stupidity???).

Vive la France ! Liberte, Egalite, Exceptionfrancaisite !

Quote from: EdouardB on June 16, 2015, 08:54:54 AM
I could talk about the chassis in a different topic but here's my thought about the electronics.
The electronics were incredibly smooth, much much smoother than in GP bikes.

I've always had the impression that judging from the outside (i.e. the parameters that define the TC behavior), the implementation of TC, AW and EB in GPB seems very basic.

Quote from: EdouardB on June 16, 2015, 08:54:54 AM
After the ride I thanked the Yamaha guy (thanks Antoine) and he started trusting me I guess because after I told him I was frustrated by how slow the engine was, he pointed at a bike and said "you can try that one if you want". I took a look and the bike was a 2012 or 2013 yamaha R1 with full race body work and race tyres.

He just wanted you weren't a prankster :)

Quote from: EdouardB on June 16, 2015, 09:11:46 AM
I set the TCS on 3 out of 6 levels (with the race TCS) to get a feel for how it works.

No slide control on that bike then.

Quote from: EdouardB on June 16, 2015, 09:11:46 AM
Overall I think that in GP bikes the electronics correspond to what was used maybe 5 years ago in competition.

Electronics and software: this stuff evolves quickly :) I know I know, some won't like it ...

MaX.

Here are further details max:

- The stock 2015 yamaha R1 has Traction Control, Slide Control, and Lift control for wheelies (mine was set to 1, but when you have only 106bhp it's hard to make it work a lot). The electronics uses a gyro on top of speed measurements of each wheel and RPM measurement. The gyro is what makes it a lot more sensitive and makes it able to differentiate all those things.

- On the FSBK 2012/2013 yamaha R1 the Traction Control also acted as a Lift control and a Slide Control. This is because there is no gyro so the only measurement the bike has is the wheel speeds and the RPM fluctuation. If the rear wheel goes faster than the front, it cuts the engine for a split second. So of course it cuts it in traction or wheelie as it's percieved the same way.
Having said that, the FSBK bike really felt like the ignition cut was smoother with a big lean angle than it was with the wheelie so I'm thinking that the RPM measurement actually allows for some differentiation of the two phenomenons in some way.

To me, the conclusion of my ride on the FSBK is that I respect MotoGP riders even more because the power must be insane.

Also another conclusion I think is that on the 2015 yamaha R1 I felt like the electronics made it somewhat easier to manage than a standard bike, whereas the FSBK one was not easier to ride at all, it just made it very different and faster to some (extent) for race pace but in some places the electronics actually made it a bit harder (coming out of slow turns and trying to anticipate when the TCS/ Lift was going to kick in and shift at the right time to not be held back wasn't easy).

About the pace, I was running about 9 seconds away from the Superbike lap record at the end of the session so nothing extraordinary, I could have gone 1 or 2 seconds faster (but not 9!!!) but didn't want to give a broken bike back to Yamaha :P

Thx EdouardB.

For these things (TC, SC, AW) all the magic is in the control part (the "algorithm") and the actuators (the action the systems perform): today anybody is capable of having gyros, accelerometers and wheel speed sensors (and no need to say, GPB has all this data), what to do with all that is a tad harder.

I've read somewhere that the 2015 M1 R1 electronics can act on fuel cuts, ignition retard and throttle position to tame the power delivery: that's some complex stuff !

MaX.

Great read EdouardB, must of been amazing thanks for sharing info.

Great feedback for the game, hopefully PiB also finds it interesting.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 16, 2015, 10:21:12 AM
I've read somewhere that the 2015 M1 electronics can act on fuel cuts, ignition retard and throttle position to tame the power delivery: that's some complex stuff !
MaX.

Same thing for the 2015 yamaha R1.

Quote from: EdouardB on June 16, 2015, 10:31:27 AM

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 16, 2015, 10:21:12 AM
I've read somewhere that the 2015 M1 electronics can act on fuel cuts, ignition retard and throttle position to tame the power delivery: that's some complex stuff !
MaX.

Same thing for the 2015 yamaha R1.

My bad, I meant the R1 (this time was me doing that specific slip) !

MaX.

Quotewhereas the FSBK one was not easier to ride at all, it just made it very different and faster to some (extent) for race pace but in some places the electronics actually made it a bit harder (coming out of slow turns and trying to anticipate when the TCS/ Lift was going to kick in and shift at the right time to not be held back wasn't easy).

That´s the reason why the fast guys in GPB reduce the TCS/AW to the minimum.... ;) They are faster without...
Would be nice to get more indept possibility to mod the TCS....

Does the usage of tc ingame save tyrewear? I'm curious about that.

Quote from: Boerenlater on June 16, 2015, 02:10:59 PM
Does the usage of tc ingame save tyrewear? I'm curious about that.

Good question!

Fuel too?

Personally in GPB on the 990 at victoria I can go faster using TC.. But, I prefer the handling without TC..

so, if TC does save tyre wear and fuel? It probably ends up around the same because of the extra speed..

Who knows.. Just guessing.

Used TC quite alot lately trying to improve my laptime.. Its ok to be honest.
What I don't like is the anti-wheelie... Bike ends up like buckaroo! Easier to roll off the throttle a touch instead..

I also tried it a little bit and even when I only use the minimum traction control (which gives me basically no advantage in terms of traction), I can't get the maxium out of corners because the traction control cuts the engine as soon as the front wheel lifts a little bit under acceleration (while the bike is still leaned over).

Good point! TC cuts in when the front wheel lifts.. Why? Lol

Well, because the rear wheel actually slides a little because of the sudden load tranfser to the rear.

Quote from: vin97 on June 16, 2015, 10:56:35 PM
Well, because the rear wheel actually slides a little because of the sudden load tranfser to the rear.

Uh, sounds wrong reasoning to me. Or maybe you're using the term "load transfer" and you mean something else.

MaX.

I think TC cuts on wheelies because of the speed difference between both wheels

Quote from: LOOPATELI on June 17, 2015, 08:15:01 AM
I think TC cuts on wheelies because of the speed difference between both wheels

Hmm ... I'm not sure the wheel speed diff is really used for TC, it depends on too many things.
And for me when AW is off, TC does not cut on wheelies (at least I don't recall having seen that).

One useful thing (already requested): it would be nice to have indicators (on the dashboard, on the GUI, in the plugin interface) telling when AW and TC are actually cutting.

MaX.

QuoteOne useful thing (already requested): it would be nice to have indicators (on the dashboard, on the GUI, in the plugin interface) telling when AW and TC are actually cutting.

It would be nice to have an indicator in the physics debug mode to see when TC, AW,EB is active.....easier to mod the TC, AW,EB. Until now it´s only based on the replays and rider feelings.
Maybe later (Piboso) can add a small indicator in the GUI and dashboard telling TC is on.

TC only cuts wheelies when the bike is still leaned over (which is the case coming out of most slow corners).
You have to push the bike but you can definitely see and hear it.

Quote from: C21 on June 17, 2015, 11:17:49 AM

QuoteOne useful thing (already requested): it would be nice to have indicators (on the dashboard, on the GUI, in the plugin interface) telling when AW and TC are actually cutting.

It would be nice to have an indicator in the physics debug mode to see when TC, AW,EB is active.....easier to mod the TC, AW,EB. Until now it´s only based on the replays and rider feelings.
Maybe later (Piboso) can add a small indicator in the GUI and dashboard telling TC is on.

Why only in physics debug mode ? On many real bikes you do have this indicators on the dashboard.

Quote from: vin97 on June 17, 2015, 12:48:56 PM
TC only cuts wheelies when the bike is still leaned over (which is the case coming out of most slow corners).
You have to push the bike but you can definitely see and hear it.

It's just semantics but TC does not "cut wheelies" intentionally. It simply act as a TC (i.e. detect slipping --> cut): the fact the wheelie is cut is kind of side effect.

MaX.

Yes, that side effect is our main problem with TCS at the moment.


Here is a little demonstration of what we are talking about (TC was set to 1).
https://www.youtube.com/v/az7S84k5zgE
At that corner I usually keep the front wheel slightly above the ground until I am in second or third gear (at that point the bike is completely upright).
I didn't lift the throttle (I was actually increasing it) but the TC still cut the engine, suddenly bringing the front down and inducing an unfortunate wobble.
I am also pretty sure that the rear wasn't sliding at the time the TC set in (definitely not enough to trigger TC set to 1).

Hard to say. If we had the TC activation light and indicator in the output plugin interface then that would be visible and logged in the telemetry, allowing to be 100% sure the problem was TC.

Was it online or offline ?

I seem to see the rear wheel jumping a bit (bumpy section of the track ?), maybe that made the TC kick in ...

MaX.

It was offline and I can assure you that it was the TC.

There was no lag and I didn't accidentally back off the throttle.


I can easily replicate this. I would record it live with your plugin showing the throttle input but Shadowplay doesn't work with GP Bikes (for me) and I have too many framedrops with Fraps.

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 17, 2015, 04:14:21 PM
Hard to say. If we had the TC activation light and indicator in the output plugin interface then that would be visible and logged in the telemetry, allowing to be 100% sure the problem was TC.

Was it online or offline ?

I seem to see the rear wheel jumping a bit (bumpy section of the track ?), maybe that made the TC kick in ...

MaX.

+1 on plugin output and then it would finally work on my real dash