My Adventures with Direct Steer w/ Torque

[HornetMaX]

Suggested around 4 years ago, to be precise. I remember the frustration of trying to keep the bars straight at a standstill using only the torque input, so I asked Piboso if it was possible to make an alternative mode for FFB devices where the position of the controller would correspond to the virtual handlebars position. Ok, I don't claim he made this after my request, but at least I was suggesting such a mode, that much I can remember. And as far as I can remember, back then hardly anybody else was interested in DS (I used to call it a "hardcore mode").
I didn't have an FFB wheel at the time, so it was purely theoretic for me, and I quit trying getting along with the torque mode after making sure I was able to at least do a couple of consequential laps at Cadwell Park without dropping the bike. It was extremely difficult at the time, so I didn't feel like continuing improving my riding, but I also couldn't go back to the "autopilot", so I switched to car sims and left the forum, hoping that one of these days GPB will get improved enough for me to continue the direct steering quest. And it did.

You still don't remember me, Max? I'm asking this because of all people here I had the most conversations with you, including those related to direct steering.

I vaguely remember somebody, may well be you, in the discussion that led to DSA. Polish ?

As for the FFB coupled with the torque mode, I have a trouble imagining how that should work, but then again, having FFB in the default mode should feel even weirder. I haven't tried either so far once I got the wheel, though. Might give it a try later.

In principle, DST is the real deal, but it needs a very special input device: one that sends out a torque to GPB and receives and angle in input of the device (so that the device itself will align its angle to the angle of the bars in-game). It's more or less the opposite of a steering wheel (that sends an angle to GPB and receives in input a force signal).

Never heard about the devices themselves doing the filtering, but it's a compelling notion. I mostly meant the filtering like the one found in rFactor 2.
Judging by some people having "accidents" with direct drive wheels, maybe your idea is not just a food for thought, but something that should be strictly enforced instead.

That's just basic safety: as soon as an electrical motor is strong enough, one has to take safety into account.

A word of advice though: consider getting at least a belt-driven wheel. Logitechs full of gears are not very good in terms of feel.

A used logitech will do for start. As said I'm not into car sims, so I'd put money in a wheel only if I find it extremely good with GPB.
But at the moment I think that a system like ddcc's one is likely to be better overall, so I would eventually decide to go for that.

Anyway, if I want something close to the real thing, I can just pick up the keys and take my bike

Well, I certainly need to give the torque mode another go (using my joysticks instead of the wheel). Maybe it's miles more manageable in this beta... However, I'm sure it won't provide the same level of enjoyment.

DST with joystick = masochism.

Klax, the only guy that managed to do a lap with it, had some very personal reasons to pick up this as a personal challenge. Without going into details, he was prevented to ride on a real bike so he wanted to succeed with DST. As far as I know he's no longer on the forum.  But Klax, if you read this, best wishes man !

First of all, there needs to be a way to control the rider's lean. Maybe some artificial vestibular function, maybe just converting the translational headtracking axes into the lean. Then I will need to figure out what else gets in the way of tackling hairpins, especially sloped ones. They are still devilishly hard to get through. If it's the driver's balance that drops the bike, the balance needs to be augmented. If it's the controller getting in the way of self-righting, the virtual fork and the controller need to be made coupled loosely enough.

You should be able to take any corner without any rider lean. Rider lean can't be the problem here.
Probably hairpins are tough because they are very low speed and at very low speed the bike steering behaviour is very different from high speed.
With the default steering, hairpins are not harder than the rest.
Sloped turns are, unfortunately, a known issue though.

At the moment direct steering is still very difficult to get accustomed to (but at least not next to impossible, as it was back then). I hope you'll agree this much. But I'm absolutely against simply dropping it in favor of the default steering. If that'd happen, I would simply quit bike sims altogether. Or at least buy myself Ride 2, since in the end the experience wouldn't be that much different, but that game has better content.

If you find the the experience of GPB and Ride2 very close, then yes, you should probably buy Ride2 

[Become dust]

DST is quite difficult but once you get the hand of it its pretty fun! My best laptime without crashing is 3min 2 seconds, as far as i can tell that is not quick, but definately not slow! Atm im trying DSA it does feel alot different but it just feels like DST but with negative values, but atm im just in a big dilema of what feels best.... the way i see it is that we need DSA handlebar controls and DST rider controll that would allow for a more diverse feel of the controlls as i feel like on DSA rider lean is virtually useless... might need more testing

[HornetMaX]

DST is quite difficult but once you get the hand of it its pretty fun! My best laptime without crashing is 3min 2 seconds, as far as i can tell that is not quick, but definately not slow! Atm im trying DSA it does feel alot different but it just feels like DST but with negative values, but atm im just in a big dilema of what feels best.... the way i see it is that we need DSA handlebar controls and DST rider controll that would allow for a more diverse feel of the controlls as i feel like on DSA rider lean is virtually useless... might need more testing

There's no such a thing as DST/DSA for rider lean. DST/DSA only take care of bike steering/leaning, not rider movements.

[Become dust]

DST is quite difficult but once you get the hand of it its pretty fun! My best laptime without crashing is 3min 2 seconds, as far as i can tell that is not quick, but definately not slow! Atm im trying DSA it does feel alot different but it just feels like DST but with negative values, but atm im just in a big dilema of what feels best.... the way i see it is that we need DSA handlebar controls and DST rider controll that would allow for a more diverse feel of the controlls as i feel like on DSA rider lean is virtually useless... might need more testing

There's no such a thing as DST/DSA for rider lean. DST/DSA only take care of bike steering/leaning, not rider movements.

Aha. I was not aware, but i guess that is the conclusion you get when you base it of on visual feedback only

[passerBy]

Ive tested it out and i can see why you FFB guys like the setup, directsteer actually applies with... direct steer but then i got this crazy idea. Whynot use DST? But with reverse torque, if im not crazy but it feels like DSA but with a more easier balancing bike. I might be crazy but DST with negative maxtorque 1 as negative it feels pretty great!! Again.... might be total nonsense bjt hey! Me like

I'm glad you are enjoying it in the end Not sure if I follow your thought process after all, but I will test what you proposed tomorrow. I have my doubts on it actually feeling the right way, but simply checking won't hurt

As for the difficulty of balancing, well... As I said, it's best to abstain from leaning the rider right and left while you don't have a lot of experience yet. Also, I suppose you still haven't bought the sim and therefore are stuck with the 125 cc bike. Those things used to be significantly less balanced than the bigger bikes, please keep that in mind. If you will manage to keep the 125 upright more or less successfully, you'll be doing much better with the liters. That's almost a given.

Again, you might want to play with the Lean linearity and push it higher than 100%.
By the way, I used to set the Direct Lean slider all the way to the right. However, today I tried setting it to 0 instead, and with the BES' Yamaha I was able to lean the rider into the turns most of the time without capsizing. Had to soften the suspension a bit first, though.

[Become dust]

Ive tested it out and i can see why you FFB guys like the setup, directsteer actually applies with... direct steer but then i got this crazy idea. Whynot use DST? But with reverse torque, if im not crazy but it feels like DSA but with a more easier balancing bike. I might be crazy but DST with negative maxtorque 1 as negative it feels pretty great!! Again.... might be total nonsense bjt hey! Me like

I'm glad you are enjoying it in the end Not sure if I follow your thought process after all, but I will test what you proposed tomorrow. I have my doubts on it actually feeling the right way, but simply checking won't hurt

As for the difficulty of balancing, well... As I said, it's best to abstain from leaning the rider right and left while you don't have a lot of experience yet. Also, I suppose you still haven't bought the sim and therefore are stuck with the 125 cc bike. Those things used to be significantly less balanced than the bigger bikes, please keep that in mind. If you will manage to keep the 125 upright more or less successfully, you'll be doing much better with the liters. That's almost a given.

Again, you might want to play with the Lean linearity and push it higher than 100%.
By the way, I used to set the Direct Lean slider all the way to the right. However, today I tried setting it to 0 instead, and with the BES' Yamaha I was able to lean the rider into the turns most of the time without capsizing. Had to soften the suspension a bit first, though.

Aha. I am pretty new so all my feedback could be just absolute noncense but yeah there is alot i still need to learn and understand yet im very happy about discovering this game

[HornetMaX]

By the way, I used to set the Direct Lean slider all the way to the right. However, today I tried setting it to 0 instead, and with the BES' Yamaha I was able to lean the rider into the turns most of the time without capsizing. Had to soften the suspension a bit first, though.

Uh that's strange as Direct Lean has nothing to do with rider lean and, if I recall correctly (maybe PiBoSo can confirm) when you use DST/DSA, Direct Lean has no effect at all.

[Become dust]

By the way, I used to set the Direct Lean slider all the way to the right. However, today I tried setting it to 0 instead, and with the BES' Yamaha I was able to lean the rider into the turns most of the time without capsizing. Had to soften the suspension a bit first, though.

Uh that's strange as Direct Lean has nothing to do with rider lean and, if I recall correctly (maybe PiBoSo can confirm) when you use DST/DSA, Direct Lean has no effect at all.

You tell me, im practically new here!

[passerBy]

I vaguely remember somebody, may well be you, in the discussion that led to DSA. Polish ?

That might have been me. Not Polish. But I suppose the nationality is irrelevant At least for me it is.

In principle, DST is the real deal, but it needs a very special input device: one that sends out a torque to GPB and receives and angle in input of the device (so that the device itself will align its angle to the angle of the bars in-game). It's more or less the opposite of a steering wheel (that sends an angle to GPB and receives in input a force signal).

I doubt that's going to work, really. Giving it a proper torque is one thing, but the handlebars themselves should assume proper position all the time too. Then again, I bet that even at high speed the bars yield even if a tiny bit into the side of pushing by the rider, so it's not just the torque.

That's just basic safety: as soon as an electrical motor is strong enough, one has to take safety into account.

I'd think the same, but still some people manage to get traumatized.

A used logitech will do for start. As said I'm not into car sims, so I'd put money in a wheel only if I find it extremely good with GPB.
But at the moment I think that a system like ddcc's one is likely to be better overall, so I would eventually decide to go for that.

Still, using almost proper bike controls with the default steering feels just wrong... I'd rather stick to a joypad in that case.

Anyway, if I want something close to the real thing, I can just pick up the keys and take my bike

That's true But sims have things on offer real life does not...

DST with joystick = masochism.

Klax, the only guy that managed to do a lap with it, had some very personal reasons to pick up this as a personal challenge. Without going into details, he was prevented to ride on a real bike so he wanted to succeed with DST. As far as I know he's no longer on the forum.  But Klax, if you read this, best wishes man !

From what I can remember, it was worse than masochism But Klax is not the only one who managed to do a lap with it As I said, I did that before him, but the times were far from what he showed in his Cadwell Park video. It was the most difficult thing I ever done and it still is. And this is compared to virtual helicopter flying (and especially hovering/slingloading).
But because of it being that frustrating, I had to quit after managing to make two laps in a row. And it seems like I missed Klax by a year or so. If I stayed long enough for him to start this thread, I'd have a better motivation for sure. And yes, he did a great job. Especially with the speed. As someone who managed to string a couple of laps at that track at that time, I'm simply stunned with his results, for I know how much work it was taking to simply complete the course. Well, maybe having a joypad and being able to change the rider lean freely is a better combo than the joystick I had at the time, but it still was a huge amount of work.

You should be able to take any corner without any rider lean. Rider lean can't be the problem here.

That's the easiest way. But not the fastest, I'm sure. And Keith Code would agree with me, or rather I would with him So, I really want to learn to put that knee down on the virtual tarmac. So far it's easier to scrape the fairing over the tarmac without rider lean than lean the bike enough with the leaned over rider to force the knee-pad make the scraping sound instead.

Probably hairpins are tough because they are very low speed and at very low speed the bike steering behaviour is very different from high speed.
With the default steering, hairpins are not harder than the rest.
Sloped turns are, unfortunately, a known issue though.

Well, shouldn't we figure out why there's a difference in the default mode then? That's why I think a hybrid mode might prove more popular than either of these.
I think something was done about sloped turns not so long ago. One would expect the situation to continue improving.

If you find the the experience of GPB and Ride2 very close, then yes, you should probably buy Ride2 

I can't find that yet, since I haven't tried either (apart from riding GPB until DST made its entrance), but I suspect Ride 2's content will make a good compromise over GPB's physics. If I'd be forced to stick to the default mode, that is For me it's the direct steering modes that make the difference. No direct steering = no point in virtual riding.

[Become dust]

I can't find that yet, since I haven't tried either (apart from riding GPB until DST made its entrance), but I suspect Ride 2's content will make a good compromise over GPB's physics. If I'd be forced to stick to the default mode, that is For me it's the direct steering modes that make the difference. No direct steering = no point in virtual riding
[/quote]

I agree on that one, have you tried ride 1? There is a free demo of ride 1 on steam but id suggest you test it with a grain of salt as ride 2 is an improvement over ride 1 controlls are identical though.
I myself tryet ride 1 atm craving for a bike sim, then i found this GP-Bikes and was so happy i finally find something that matches i guess you could call my describtion of what i seek.
Atm im eager to throw some money for a licence but im flat atm which is quite frustating alas I'm happy to see there is an unlimited time demo of this game

[passerBy]

Aha. I am pretty new so all my feedback could be just absolute noncense but yeah there is alot i still need to learn and understand yet im very happy about discovering this game

Actually, your feedback might help a lot exactly because you only started learning to ride GPB in these modes. There might be something we overlooked or simply forgotten. And I think any feedback is valuable. After all, these modes are extremely unpopular, and I think it's undeservingly so.

Uh that's strange as Direct Lean has nothing to do with rider lean and, if I recall correctly (maybe PiBoSo can confirm) when you use DST/DSA, Direct Lean has no effect at all.

The problem with the G27 (or at least with the unit I have) is that it doesn't exhibit a lot of precision. And while you are leaned over off the bike, you need highly precise (and sometimes quick) movements to not drop the bike. For example, when you are approaching a camber change, that stuff can make you fall right away if you are not careful.
What Direct Lean does, it dampens the steering oscillations (and I hope also helps with the natural self-righting due to the steering geometry). And thanks to the FFB, on a bumpy enough track they can get in the way.
I also tried smoothing on the lean axis, but I felt that DL does this better for me.

I agree on that one, have you tried ride 1? There is a free demo of ride 1 on steam but id suggest you test it with a grain of salt as ride 2 is an improvement over ride 1 controlls are identical though.
I myself tryet ride 1 atm craving for a bike sim, then i found this GP-Bikes and was so happy i finally find something that matches i guess you could call my describtion of what i seek.
Atm im eager to throw some money for a licence but im flat atm which is quite frustating alas I'm happy to see there is an unlimited time demo of this game

No, I haven't tried the demo. If anything, I might want to try a Ride 2 demo if there was one But without direct steering I don't think I'd waste my money on something like that... On the other hand, if I didn't have the license and GP Bikes didn't have the direct steering modes, I really doubt I would buy it at all. Probably I would simply switch to car/flight sims or some other stuff.

Good to know you like the sim so far And if you are even a little bit into cars, after you bought the license, I'm sure you will also like WRS that comes as a bonus with the GPB license It used to be nothing special, but now it's a very solid car sim, at least physics-wise.

[Become dust]

I will indeed love the added car sim of the license not only do i like sim game with realistic vehicles. I build them in an amazing virtual dreamland i call Garry's mod, where the only limit is your imagination on the Ram limit of the decade old game, ive build cars planes helicopters(not perfect or amazing by any means) but my proudest creation is a humble sailboat, as far as im aware not many if any have succesfully built a fully functional and effective sailboat, quick tour: sail type ketch for and aft sinhle mast sail with stormsails and also a realistic flag :3 sadly i did not save the thing but because ive spend so many hours of it i can proudly tell you, i can build that fucker from ground using my memory! (Reason behind enthersizing memory is that i suck at remembering shit) from the keel and up!! I am able to build all the functioning mechanics! (It is not as complicated as it sounds but looks cool) went abit of corse there

Regarding the DSA and DST testing i shall continue attempt my experiments! And hopefully someday i will get a license. That buying button is mocking me!!! AAAHh!!

[HornetMaX]

In principle, DST is the real deal, but it needs a very special input device: one that sends out a torque to GPB and receives and angle in input of the device (so that the device itself will align its angle to the angle of the bars in-game). It's more or less the opposite of a steering wheel (that sends an angle to GPB and receives in input a force signal).

I doubt that's going to work, really. Giving it a proper torque is one thing, but the handlebars themselves should assume proper position all the time too. Then again, I bet that even at high speed the bars yield even if a tiny bit into the side of pushing by the rider, so it's not just the torque.

The handlebars will assume proper position because GPB will dictate the position and a control loop will enforce the position.
You will put a torque on the bars to make them move and your torque will be fed to GPB that in turn will "allow" them to move.
The control loop in this setup is the analog of the control loop you have in DSA (where you input the angle and GPB computes the torque to apply to the virtual bars).

But if you insist on saying that all this is not about the torque I can't keep on discussing.

Uh that's strange as Direct Lean has nothing to do with rider lean and, if I recall correctly (maybe PiBoSo can confirm) when you use DST/DSA, Direct Lean has no effect at all.

The problem with the G27 (or at least with the unit I have) is that it doesn't exhibit a lot of precision. And while you are leaned over off the bike, you need highly precise (and sometimes quick) movements to not drop the bike. For example, when you are approaching a camber change, that stuff can make you fall right away if you are not careful.
What Direct Lean does, it dampens the steering oscillations (and I hope also helps with the natural self-righting due to the steering geometry). And thanks to the FFB, on a bumpy enough track they can get in the way.
I also tried smoothing on the lean axis, but I felt that DL does this better for me.

You didn't get my point: when you use DST or DSA, I think the Direct Lean setting has absolutely no influence, it's bypassed.
It would be nice if PiBoSo could confirm, but in the meantime: http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=379.msg26565;topicseen#msg26565

[passerBy]

I will indeed love the added car sim of the license not only do i like sim game with realistic vehicles. I build them in an amazing virtual dreamland i call Garry's mod, where the only limit is your imagination on the Ram limit of the decade old game, ive build cars planes helicopters(not perfect or amazing by any means) but my proudest creation is a humble sailboat, as far as im aware not many if any have succesfully built a fully functional and effective sailboat, quick tour: sail type ketch for and aft sinhle mast sail with stormsails and also a realistic flag :3 sadly i did not save the thing but because ive spend so many hours of it i can proudly tell you, i can build that fucker from ground using my memory! (Reason behind enthersizing memory is that i suck at remembering shit) from the keel and up!! I am able to build all the functioning mechanics! (It is not as complicated as it sounds but looks cool) went abit of corse there

Well, I'm not sure how realistic things built in Garry's mod can get, but it's certainly great that you tried those experiments and succeeded However, in my opinion a serious purpose-built sim is always better, so if you haven't heard of it yet, try Sail Simulator 5 (they even have a demo). So far I haven't seen a better sailing sim, and I'm into sailing too Ahoy!

Regarding the DSA and DST testing i shall continue attempt my experiments! And hopefully someday i will get a license. That buying button is mocking me!!! AAAHh!!

Hehe, that button was mocking me since the early alphas too Not sure what made me finally get it, but DST that followed after that made it even a better package... even though at the time it wasn't extremely usable

[Become dust]

I will indeed love the added car sim of the license not only do i like sim game with realistic vehicles. I build them in an amazing virtual dreamland i call Garry's mod, where the only limit is your imagination on the Ram limit of the decade old game, ive build cars planes helicopters(not perfect or amazing by any means) but my proudest creation is a humble sailboat, as far as im aware not many if any have succesfully built a fully functional and effective sailboat, quick tour: sail type ketch for and aft sinhle mast sail with stormsails and also a realistic flag :3 sadly i did not save the thing but because ive spend so many hours of it i can proudly tell you, i can build that fucker from ground using my memory! (Reason behind enthersizing memory is that i suck at remembering shit) from the keel and up!! I am able to build all the functioning mechanics! (It is not as complicated as it sounds but looks cool) went abit of corse there

Well, I'm not sure how realistic things built in Garry's mod can get, but it's certainly great that you tried those experiments and succeeded However, in my opinion a serious purpose-built sim is always better, so if you haven't heard of it yet, try Sail Simulator 5 (they even have a demo). So far I haven't seen a better sailing sim, and I'm into sailing too Ahoy!

Regarding the DSA and DST testing i shall continue attempt my experiments! And hopefully someday i will get a license. That buying button is mocking me!!! AAAHh!!

Hehe, that button was mocking me since the early alphas too Not sure what made me finally get it, but DST that followed after that made it even a better package... even though at the time it wasn't extremely usable

heheh Garry's mod is not very realistic but it does follow basic principles to an extent but it is not the realism that is rewarding but to see your own creation in action which is why i love Garry's mod