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Controller beginnings

Started by teeds, October 23, 2014, 10:53:08 AM

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doubledragoncc

Hi guys

Load cells are the only way to correctly SEND a signal to the sim, but they have limitations. Firstly they are big an actual size so no way to do it for a game pad, sorry. Secondly as said before they need a load cell accelorator to give the right amount of output to the controlling processor of the device you are conecting to the computer. Leo Bodnar has these for his BU boards and work great and easy to use. Thirdly, load cells are expensive compared to other kinds of sensors.

If you want to use springs for pressure feel, you can have a shorter STRONGER spring with a smaller diameter but longer lenth spring inside it that is not as strong to get 2 different brake pressure feelings, or 3 spings if you want 3 different amounts of pressure, or if you have enough space, one spring infront of the othe will give the same effect.

I am trying to come up with a real hydaulic system for high end controls. This will be expencive but if someone wants one it will be available.

Love this thread. Keep all the ideas coming its great to read how people think.

DD
GPBOC Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/c/IASystemsComputerControls; i7 7700 4.8GHz z270 ASUS Maximus Code Mobo 16GB 3866MHz DDR4 RAM ASUS Strix RTX2070 OC 8GB DDR6 Kraken X62 AIO Cooler ROG Thor 850w PSU in ROG Helios Tower Case.
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teeds

January 02, 2015, 03:39:27 PM #31 Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 11:50:13 AM by teeds
So, found that when riding using my rig in MXB I was pulling and pushing on the handle bars as you do irl to control pitch. Also my stand has some flex which gave a tactile sensation like something should be happening. Additionally to reduce bulk and to ease transportation I wanted a desk mount too. Combining these two aspects I have made this -







I now have a desk clamp that seems to fit most desks and it pivots so I can use the handle bars moving back and forth as lean forward and back in game. Still messing with springs and need to put in some adjustable stops but it works fine.

Oh and happy new year all!  :D

h106frp

Quote from: doubledragoncc on November 19, 2014, 03:26:42 PM
Hi guys

Load cells are the only way to correctly SEND a signal to the sim, but they have limitations. Firstly they are big an actual size so no way to do it for a game pad, sorry. Secondly as said before they need a load cell accelorator to give the right amount of output to the controlling processor of the device you are conecting to the computer. Leo Bodnar has these for his BU boards and work great and easy to use. Thirdly, load cells are expensive compared to other kinds of sensors.

If you want to use springs for pressure feel, you can have a shorter STRONGER spring with a smaller diameter but longer lenth spring inside it that is not as strong to get 2 different brake pressure feelings, or 3 spings if you want 3 different amounts of pressure, or if you have enough space, one spring infront of the othe will give the same effect.

I am trying to come up with a real hydaulic system for high end controls. This will be expencive but if someone wants one it will be available.

Love this thread. Keep all the ideas coming its great to read how people think.

DD

Been wondering if i could use a compact pneumatic cylinder (or even possibly a large syringe) for front brake feel with the brake cable pulling against the cylinder with the inlet blocked off. This would give a 'soft' initial travel and then harden up as the vacuum in the end of the cylinder increases much like normal lever travel. 40mm dia/5 or 10mm stroke cyclinders seem quite cheap and i am guessing i need a largish piston area. I know air is compressible (squidgy lever if the vauum is insufficient) but i think this might be 'better' than mechanical springs.

Anyone tried anything similar and know whether it might work or suitable sizing for the cylinder? would like to avoid hydraulics as its messy and the initial pedal travel bit seems complex to get right.

doubledragoncc

HI Guys.

@teeds, great work m8, looks VERY robust to say the least. How do you like my SPSS steering setup? It is great to see people using it and get some feedback as to the riding feeling they get using it. I am refining a few points on the concept to make it more compact. New designs going great and will  show some pics soon. One thing I learnt over the years is you dont need to use 1inch tube, 1/2inch and 3/4inch work just as good in many areas and are far lighter. Its surprising how much force it takes to bend 3mm steel plate too. It would help if you want to take it about.

@ "H" Hope its okay to shorten your name. I am working on a full hydraulic system as its cheap to buy real levers with all for £10 on ebay new. I have a lot to do to test but think its the way to go. I have not tried a syringe though, but is a new idea and worth trying in its concept. Try putting a spring inside the syringe to adjust pressure!!! Just thought of that. I think a 1inch (25.4mm) diameter might show good starting pressure but 2 inch would be better if you look at a brake caliper piston size it about right. You could try different fluids in the syringe too, even washing up liquid, just some ideas as I write this.

I am still working on my new business plan and have to be done by the 12th Jan and then with luck I can get the new 3D printer so I can really start on some of the designs I have to reduce cost for everyone to have real bike controllers. It will also make it possible to produce parts that would normally not be possible.

Keep up the great work.

DD

GPBOC Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/c/IASystemsComputerControls; i7 7700 4.8GHz z270 ASUS Maximus Code Mobo 16GB 3866MHz DDR4 RAM ASUS Strix RTX2070 OC 8GB DDR6 Kraken X62 AIO Cooler ROG Thor 850w PSU in ROG Helios Tower Case.
https://paypal.me/IASystems

HornetMaX

Quote from: h106frp on January 04, 2015, 02:14:01 PM
Been wondering if i could use a compact pneumatic cylinder (or even possibly a large syringe) for front brake feel with the brake cable pulling against the cylinder with the inlet blocked off. This would give a 'soft' initial travel and then harden up as the vacuum in the end of the cylinder increases much like normal lever travel. 40mm dia/5 or 10mm stroke cyclinders seem quite cheap and i am guessing i need a largish piston area. I know air is compressible (squidgy lever if the vauum is insufficient) but i think this might be 'better' than mechanical springs.
I don't think that feeling of a pneumatic system will be any closer than a normal spring. A pneumatic system is a spring, just a non-linear one. Load cell for the win. But to be honest, just having a lever with a sufficiently hard spring would be such a leap from a pad trigger that it may be well enough.

One thing you could try is to have a longer and softer spring with inside a shorter and much stiffer one: this way the first part of the lever movement would be easy, until the harder spring kicks in.

MaX.

h106frp

January 04, 2015, 08:26:12 PM #35 Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 10:18:06 PM by h106frp
Yep, thinking it through a bit more you do need to derive force rather than any measure of displacement, otherwise once you reach the 'firm' area toward the end of the small lever travel you will struggle to sense (electrically) that 'extra' input as you load the lever up - suppose a log potentiometer might be one dodge to raise the output towards the end of the travel but would probably be fiddly to set up right. Definitely, the linear 'trigger' type response of a normal joystick is all wrong.

Time to look for a cheap pressure transducer.

edit..
This looks quite neat using a simple beam 'load cell' from a cheap set of bathroom scales
http://www.xsimulator.net/community/threads/diy-load-cell-brake-pedal-short-tuto.6042/

Decided i will probably go the hydraulic root though seem to get the thumbs up from the car sim community..... if cheap levers from china turn out to be any good ::) look the part in the pictures wonder what they will be like in reality though.

doubledragoncc

Hi H, you can get the cheap Chinese brake/clutch hydraulic sets here in UK for £10!!! they will do the job bro can find loads on Ebay

DD
GPBOC Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/c/IASystemsComputerControls; i7 7700 4.8GHz z270 ASUS Maximus Code Mobo 16GB 3866MHz DDR4 RAM ASUS Strix RTX2070 OC 8GB DDR6 Kraken X62 AIO Cooler ROG Thor 850w PSU in ROG Helios Tower Case.
https://paypal.me/IASystems

HornetMaX

In the page linked by h106frp there was also this link: http://www.varjanta.com/forum/hydraulic-brake-pedal-handmade-t1808.html

The installation of the load cell is ridiculously simple, just sandwiched between two teflon plates, right behind the foot pedal.

At that stage, one could put directly the load cell (and it's teflon sandwich) right between the real brake pads (fixed to one of the pads) ...

Quote from: doubledragoncc on January 05, 2015, 12:01:43 PM
Hi H, you can get the cheap Chinese brake/clutch hydraulic sets here in UK for £10!!! they will do the job bro can find loads on Ebay

Any example ?

MaX.

teeds

Quote from: doubledragoncc on January 04, 2015, 04:44:53 PM
looks VERY robust to say the least. How do you like my SPSS steering setup?

Yea fair comment DD lol, but had some bits bend on me when testing the spring load so had to large it up a bit. Just have to be careful not to tip my desk over now lol. I was also a bit suspect of the results of the F/B lean function but now I've used it a bit in MXB it's freaking awesome and I'd be gutted to loose it.
Yes the pivot setup of yours is saweet DD, i'd liken the change using it in MXB and GPB to the change I got when going from joystick or controller to a wheel in driving games. It just makes so much more sense and the sim just feels more real, especially when combined with the throttle and levered brakes etc. The steering also allows me to be much more precise due to the throw of it, which is something like 9" each side, so instantly things kind of got easier for me. Couple of mates of mine have seen what i'm using and want one...
I know i'm suckered into a game when I start sticking my real legs out in sharp turns to save a fall because my brain is momentarily convinced it's real lol  ;)



These hydraulic brakes systems seem like a great idea and should feel just right but I've never fancied the thought of it leaking onto my carpet, ways around that though I suppose.


doubledragoncc

January 05, 2015, 04:16:12 PM #39 Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 04:21:22 PM by doubledragoncc
Heres a pic of the set for £32.59 from the link below



http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/7-8-22mm-Motorcycle-Handlebar-Hydraulic-Brake-Master-Cylinder-Clutch-Lever-/271411164955?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts_13&hash=item3f315db71b

For a sim rig and not a real bike its a frickin steal and dont forget, DOT brake fluid wont damage paint but not sure if the seals on the system are okay for DOT5 but its not getting hot as its not on a real bike so DOT5 is okay I think. Used it on all my custom bikes I built and with a $10,000 paint job you dont F*** around. You dont ned a caliper just a pressure sensor ala G27 brake conversion. Looking into it too.

DD
GPBOC Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/c/IASystemsComputerControls; i7 7700 4.8GHz z270 ASUS Maximus Code Mobo 16GB 3866MHz DDR4 RAM ASUS Strix RTX2070 OC 8GB DDR6 Kraken X62 AIO Cooler ROG Thor 850w PSU in ROG Helios Tower Case.
https://paypal.me/IASystems

h106frp

January 05, 2015, 07:35:23 PM #40 Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 07:51:34 PM by h106frp
I have gone for the copy Brembo GP 'look alikes' at £25 for the pair - could not resist the styling  8)- see what they are like when (if) they turn up, pretty sure that although listed as UK they will be from China.

Just a note, for the 'bathscale loadcell' you only really need 1 cell not 2 as suggested by the author so keeps the cost down, the second half of the Whetstone bridge circuit can be constructed from a pair of matched resistors. The output per unit force is halved, but we will be inputting high levels of force anyway so it wont matter. Any resistor values will do, higher resistance will draw less current and any value from 120 to 10 kohm is fine. You can either match the values by hand, trim a low value higher by nicking the metal film with a small file or put a high value trimmer resistor (maybe 500k to 1Mohm) in parallel with the larger of the 2 resistors and adjust to get the value you want.
You can also play with the 2 resistor values to offset the output to make it more suitable for a microprocessor input i.e. zero force = 2.5volts out from the amplifier. The bridge output is just the differential voltage formed by the output from the 2 potential dividers,1 half is the strain gauges, the other the resistor pair.

This circuit should interface directly to the Leo Bodnar load cell input or a home made amplifier to an existing joystick input.

Just found someone down the road from me offering the bathroom scale sensor as a standalone item for under a tenner;
http://www.technobotsonline.com/load-sensor-50kg.html

also the force sensitive resistors used in HornetMax link
http://www.technobotsonline.com/sensors/flex-force-en.html
I have seen it mentioned that these film sensors suffer a little with being very non-linear in resistance change with applied force



h106frp



Came quite quick so must be from UK stock, look the part and seem OK for controller use less than £25 shipped for the pair :D. Make the cable operated minimoto set i was going to use look a bit sad now.

Seems that ideally they need to drive a small cylinder to get the best lever response, initial travel, piston travel then braking load. This is the way the driving simmers have tackled the problem. The wilwood pull clutch cylinders they use are over £70 each though so thinking of modifying and old british leyland land rover type clutch slave (seems easiest) cylinder or single piston brake slave (mini front) as these are less than £10 each.

Either a pressure transducer or one of the load sensors linked earlier for the force signal. Think this is going to be a long term project.. :D Even the simple bits like the throttle need a bit of though to get right so i'm expecting the brake/clutch to take a bit of trial and error to get working.


teeds

For the money they look very good. Are you thinking of using a pressure sensor for the clutch?

h106frp

Yes, same for both but just sprung travel against the load piston for the clutch, the brake will need a very short spring travel then a stop to load up the lever.

That the plan anyway :)

Masterofdesaster

January 12, 2015, 07:25:01 AM #44 Last Edit: January 13, 2015, 05:56:59 AM by Masterofdesaster
Great work Teeds.





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