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Controller.....

Started by grimm, December 03, 2014, 07:21:26 AM

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grimm

December 03, 2014, 07:21:26 AM Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 07:26:17 AM by grimm
Double Dragon donated quite a few parts, and even left me a design that I carelessly let disappear with a computer, so I never actually got to see what the inner workings were truly about, so I hemmed and hawed about how to go about making anything work from this pile of parts I had in my hands. I finally decided I wasn't going to be a stupid caveman level idiot and do something about this stuff, build something... first I had to overcome my fear of wires... no idea why, but the moment I put my hands on a loom I get spastic spells of anger and rage, dunno what it is really, just hate dealing with wiring. Too many Honda's I reckon.  ::)

Just about to give up I found a flight simulator forum, seems they build far more intelligent designs than the few controls a motorcycle has! Should be easy enough to find what I am looking for there, so, I peruse many a thread reading about wiring, theory of engineering, material strength (pfffffff, I'll use STEEL!!), and find all that I need to understand how to wire pots, and what alphabetical and numerical combination they belong to on this curios "plug and play" board Mr. Dragon had left behind in the bitter cold north woods. Was I really on to something or had I gone in over my head? I couldn't tell at that point... honestly it felt like the world had somehow changed a bit.



The last 2 days have been spent burning cedar and oak in the wood stove, heating the area around my mill and lathe, welder, and associated motorcycle building paraphernalia, I was feverishly modifying parts, changing things, and working on a grand design that only the most sick of motorcycle minds could recognize as none other than a ratbike. As it took shape I was realizing I had created a monster, a moving, living, breathing piece of machinery that actually lived if I just gave it a jolt of live electricity, it was MY Frankenstein, and it was all in the name of motorcycles!





After some bugs, some fixes, and a bit of testing, I can't recommend this enough, if you can find it in you to piece together whatever you can to make something like this beast happen, DO IT. The feeling of GP Bikes with grips in your hands and levers on your fingers is worth more than any words.




Developing the stand and control positions fully inspired and parts by DDCC (pots, steering shaft, bearings, bar mounts, pot levers):





Steering by DDCC (steering shaft, center spring mount plate, pot levers/pots) :








And once I went ballistic on the whole setup with my own crazy motorcycle builder attitude about how things should work and all that nonsense:


teeds

Very nice, aren't jubilee clips wonderful ;)

doubledragoncc

December 03, 2014, 12:05:43 PM #2 Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 12:09:56 PM by doubledragoncc
Hi Grimm. Thank you for mentioning my name and giving me credit, it means a lot to me coming from you. Only thing you missed that is important is the BU0836X USB control board from Leo Bodnar I left you. Its the best board to use. How dose it work for you and how easy did you find it to work with? So others know.

BU0836X 49 GBP from Leo Bodnar in UK

Im so happy to see you use the parts at last. Looks like you did a really good job too, I know how you are about working with certain things.

How do you like the SPSS steering everyone says is wrong?

It will feel better if you lengthen the distance from the bars to the axle hole as in pic below



Also use stronger springs for brake and clutch for better feeling, throttle looked perfect. I use 38mm for ease of fitting as in pic below. I am working on a better way to make the feeling more realistic with better action too.



Hope that helps a bit. Feel free to ask for any help.

Great to see you do it!!!

DD
GPBOC Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/c/IASystemsComputerControls; i7 7700 4.8GHz z270 ASUS Maximus Code Mobo 16GB 3866MHz DDR4 RAM ASUS Strix RTX2070 OC 8GB DDR6 Kraken X62 AIO Cooler ROG Thor 850w PSU in ROG Helios Tower Case.
https://paypal.me/IASystems

grimm

Wiring the board was the simplest and easiest part of the whole thing. Plug "signal", "ground", and "power" into each corresponding position (literally plug them in, no soldering or splicing) weather it is X, Z, Y, RZ, etc. axis and use the viewer program to verify the range of the pot after plugging the board itself into the USB port on the computer. Couldn't be easier... and I thought that was going to be the hard part.  ::)

Space constraints and the fact this is 90% wheelie practice in the offseason is why the bars are so close to the pivot point, but, they do sweep to the same lean angle that the bike on screen moves to. Riding on board feels right. If I got a set of drag bars like the inspiring concept for this project it would lower them quite a distance, or just flipping over these Ninja 650R bars would drop the steering point low enough to feel correct and likely give more space for routing the cables. As the project progresses I'm sure it'll end up bullet proof and able to really take some abuse.

In short, the SPSS steering feels intuitive and correct, I'm not thinking about it when I want the bike to go left or right, I just do it without thought.

Last night was the first and only time I've gotten a chance to test this thing out, as far as springs I do need a stronger one on the throttle, the clutch is okay but could use some more resistance as well. I also found out that the throttle needs a stopping pin, without a wide open throttle point it feels like you are constantly twisting to find more, a limit would be ideal. I've got a handful of springs from digging through boxes of motorcycle parts too, I'll swap them around until I find a solid one that feels like a rack of carbs.




DD, regardless of personal whatever you want to call it, it would be low and complete bullshit to not credit you where credit is due. I would much rather see GP Bikes keep moving forward than to allow history to prevent both of us sharing what we know and learn about proper motorcycle controllers with the community here. I would have left the forum long ago if I didn't believe in the effort of Piboso and the community that stands behind him.


On a person note though, you remember me talking about "Buttercup", well here she is:





And my summer wheelie training consists of this... my neighbors think I'm a lunatic... not too far off from the truth either:


doubledragoncc

Hi Grimm great news. It is so refreshing to hear someone and especially someone I know who really knows how to ride a bike in real life. I have been fighting on the forums for years about my SPSS because nobody has used it except those in Florida. Thanks once again for the credit and also for the
kind response with respect of a fellow rider both on the road and in the sim world.

I have designed a box that can be used for any control you want. It can be connected by cable, push/pull rod or pulley. it means you can simply have real controls with cables and they simply use the existing cable to connect to the box which is wired to the BU. You could even just disconnect the cables from your carbs, clutch and if drum brake while they are on a real bike and simply hook them on my MTE box and they would work in GPB or whatever you want. It will mean more people can build their own systems easily.

I am putting a patent on the SPSS but I dont mind guys here using it. I just want to help if I can.

I will be opening the new business in January to February 2015 so look for the adverts coming to your favorite forum soon lol.

Did I leave you the designs for foot controls too? As your a special person I will be emailing you some designs that should work best for your purpose.

Love the photo of Buttercup, I think about her once in a while and remember the time in WI. Thank you to you all. The old GS1000 tank brings back memories too, dang Im old lol. See you still got the old car there did you get it finished?

BTW since when do YOU worry about stopping opening the throttle lol.

Well have fun riding it and dont forget to ask if you need any help mate.

DD
GPBOC Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/c/IASystemsComputerControls; i7 7700 4.8GHz z270 ASUS Maximus Code Mobo 16GB 3866MHz DDR4 RAM ASUS Strix RTX2070 OC 8GB DDR6 Kraken X62 AIO Cooler ROG Thor 850w PSU in ROG Helios Tower Case.
https://paypal.me/IASystems

teeds

Quote from: grimm on December 03, 2014, 06:12:08 PM
I also found out that the throttle needs a stopping pin, without a wide open throttle point it feels like you are constantly twisting to find more, a limit would be ideal.

I had the same issue, an easy way to sort it is to put some kind of solid material in the throttle body itself. I used wood and can easily add a bit more or cut it down, this way you also put no strain on the cable or what it's connected to.






doubledragoncc

It is better to put a stop at the potentiometer end that saves the pot and if you have one that adjusts it is better. It is better if you make it so you can tune the pot movement for a more precise control.

DD
GPBOC Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/c/IASystemsComputerControls; i7 7700 4.8GHz z270 ASUS Maximus Code Mobo 16GB 3866MHz DDR4 RAM ASUS Strix RTX2070 OC 8GB DDR6 Kraken X62 AIO Cooler ROG Thor 850w PSU in ROG Helios Tower Case.
https://paypal.me/IASystems

HornetMaX

Quote from: doubledragoncc on December 03, 2014, 12:05:43 PM
How do you like the SPSS steering everyone says is wrong?
I actually think it's very smart for a non-FFB system.

MaX.

doubledragoncc

Max, you would not believe how much it DONT need FFB as your body reacts in a way that really makes you forget about FFB. This is on my system as you actually lean your weight onto the bars like on a real bike. With it just sitting in front of you its not the same, but your to deep into riding that the whole FFB thing just would not work without one hell of a strong motor as the forces it would have to work against are far greater than having to make a wheel spin.People need to start thinking about the fact that it is NOT a steering Wheel system.

It is so good to see teeds and Grimm liking the feeling. I am helping cdx build a system too so soon there will be a few in the UK and you should come and try it out.

Early next year I will be opening the new business and then I will be able to say more about my new product line. It will allow more people to make systems pretty easily and not too expensive.

Keep up the great work guys it rocks

DD
GPBOC Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/c/IASystemsComputerControls; i7 7700 4.8GHz z270 ASUS Maximus Code Mobo 16GB 3866MHz DDR4 RAM ASUS Strix RTX2070 OC 8GB DDR6 Kraken X62 AIO Cooler ROG Thor 850w PSU in ROG Helios Tower Case.
https://paypal.me/IASystems

BOBR6 84

Im not sure FFB is needed.. Not like the FFB you have in wheels anyway..

A real steering damper would do the trick!

When you counter steer on a bike, its not a forcefull thing.. Your arms should be as relaxed as possible..

BOBR6 84

To get force feedback for tankslappers etc. Id say you would have to go with the ''bars on top of a ball''.

So you push forward on your left hand, the bars turn right and tilt to the left. Inside the ''ball'' you could have some sort of ffb system for all movements/angles..

No idea if it exists or if its do-able or not lol

Does any of that even make sense? lol.

BOBR6 84

Maybe a magnetic sphere object that can also spin on its axis, to allow the handlebars to turn l/r aswell as roll, yaw whatever the words are..

That would be perfect for a desktop handlebar setup.

Im just thinking aloud here.. Anyway, back to work before it rains lol  ;D

doubledragoncc

Hi BOB, your on the right tracks in thinking. In order to have the right FFB for the right situation on a bike there are so many different movements at the bars you have to think about.

1. The slapper !!! (not the kind of woman from the UK either) but tank slapper is a wobbling effect, so on the horizontal axis from left to right.

2. The dive. (not your best friends trashy room) but a down and away movement from you action as the forks compress.

3. The lean, couldn't think of a funny one for this, the bars follow the bike on a vertical tilt as the bike leans over.

4. The lift, where the bars come up and at you as the front wheel lifts when you wheelie.

5. The twist (not the Rock n Roll dance) but the bars turning on the horizontal and staying turned as you slide the back end round.

6. THE BIGGY or THE COMBO, this is where any of the above happen at the same time yowza!!!!!!!!!!

Now try to make a steering system that can move in all of those axis at the same time and power them with damn strong motors because unlike a steering wheel that only has to fight the muscles in your arms and wins real easy, a set of handlebars is fighting your WHOLE body and all the muscles in it, even the one on your third eye when it gets squirmy in the curves in the rain!!!

I have a few concepts I have been playing with but it is hard to do and keep my SPSS steering which works so good for no FFB. The ball idea is one I have also been playing with but it is cost that stops a lot of designs so far. I am sure that the way the controller threads have been going on GPB in the last few weeks we will find a compromise especially now more have started using my SPSS system and like it.

Keep the brain farts coming guys we can do it.

Keep it sunny side up, as sunny side down burns ya bum!!!

DD
GPBOC Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/c/IASystemsComputerControls; i7 7700 4.8GHz z270 ASUS Maximus Code Mobo 16GB 3866MHz DDR4 RAM ASUS Strix RTX2070 OC 8GB DDR6 Kraken X62 AIO Cooler ROG Thor 850w PSU in ROG Helios Tower Case.
https://paypal.me/IASystems

HornetMaX

Quote from: doubledragoncc on December 04, 2014, 12:37:42 AM
Max, you would not believe how much it DONT need FFB as your body reacts in a way that really makes you forget about FFB. This is on my system as you actually lean your weight onto the bars like on a real bike. With it just sitting in front of you its not the same, but your to deep into riding that the whole FFB thing just would not work without one hell of a strong motor as the forces it would have to work against are far greater than having to make a wheel spin.People need to start thinking about the fact that it is NOT a steering Wheel system.
I guess it all depend on the goal one has. If you plan to use the controller without DST, then yes, FFB is not needed and some simple feedback (like the one your system provides or like a simple damper as bobr6 said) is enough. Notice however that on this kind of systems (just like with a pad or a joystick) you could have your bars at a given angle while the in-game bars are at a totally different angle.

It may not be a steering wheel system, but it's still a steering system and in reality you do get torque feedback from the handlebars.

Notice that I don't think the motor strength should be an issue: current wheels (like a g27) are pretty strong and with a 900deg range. For a bike thing we only need 40-60deg, so you can gear down the thing and get more torque (but you'll lose a bit as the bars are wider than the wheel diameter). I think it's doable, but the market is just too little for it to be interesting as a product (for something like Logitech).

MaX.

Gibbon

Interesting work about steering torque:

http://www.iaeng.org/publication/WCE2010/WCE2010_pp1257-1262.pdf

For sure if you want a good and realistic behaviour/feeling then you will need FFB.

As HornetMax said, DC motor or servomotor is not he main problem...the way you control it will be the most difficult part...(I'm working on it  :D )

For cost reason, it's obvious a "no FFB" system would perfectly work for a small amount of money but in my opinion, the feeling will be far from reality  :-\