Marquez breaks little finger

[Hawk]

If Marquez could ride a Classic 500cc GP bike(which I doubt) to the same standard he rides these modern MotoGP micky mouse bikes then I have to agree with you Max. But I guess we'll never find that out because the factories will never let these guys race each other in a Classic GP500 race, even if it was only a one off exhibition race for the fans. 

Classical argument. First you doubt he could, then you said anyway we'll never find out.
I'm more open, who knows. 500cc riders were not an alien breed, at least no more than others that came later.

Mickey mouse bikes ... yeah sure ... come on man, you're smarter than that ...

You should know by now how much I like to wind-up modern 4 stroke fans, Max. Hehe 

Yes it is what it is today and I doubt it will change back for the better, but by riding with so many computer controlled aids these days MotoGP leaves itself well open for taking the micky out of in my opinion when comparing to the classic 500GP era.

It's just the same for modern F1 compared to the classic era; but even F1 have realised that too many computer aids were destroying the sport and have now cut down a lot from what it was before.  A big step in the right direction in my opinion.

Marquez will never be able to surpass that achievement.

That's exactly what others were saying about Rossi when he started, or Schumacher when he started ...
Time moves forward (and only forward), but some people seem to have a problem with that. I call them the "romantic".

I do have a problem with bike aids that takes away the skill of a rider to govern and better his own performance. In my opinion, yes they have moved forward, but at the same time have destroyed a riders ability to use his own raw talents to control a bike. This has resulted in so many riders with lesser talents being able to compete at the same level(given the same bike).
Take away the throttle, suspension, and TC computer control systems on these modern 4 strokes and I would have just the same respect for MotoGP as I have for 500GP. Even Rossi has stated that the MotoGP bikes are easier to ride than the 500cc GP bikes were and that because of that he found the 500GP bikes more exciting to ride.

Romantic? Yes. But for good reasons in my opinion. 

When Valentino retires so does the passion in my heart! There will never be another Rossi for my era, impossible.

Same as above

@WALKEN: I must admit that's what happened to me when "Sheene",  "Roberts", and then "Spencer" retired, but then we had the great era's of the 1990's - 2001 with many great riders coming through.
But I would add that riders in the modern era don't hold that extra awe and heroism for me simply because of all the riding aids that are in operation today. Raw talent goes a long way in making a sportsman a hero in peoples minds, and unfortunately(at no fault to the riders), modern MotoGP riders can never have that unless FIM ban computer controlled riding aids.

Rossi is probably the greatest Motorcycle Grand Prix rider there has ever been and has the record to prove it. 

I can agree no problem on that, especially from the results point of view. But surely the fact he also won on 500cc is not a factor for me.
He's good because he's good, not bacause he won on 500cc bikes. Plenty of less good riders did it.

MaX.

P.S.
Nobody aged 70 or more saying that 500cc rider were sissies riding with silly helmets, while previous era riders were real men with no helmet at all ?

Well I guess this comes back to the fact that the 500cc GP bikes were harder to ride and therefore required greater skills to ride than modern Moto GP bikes, and there's the reason for my huge respect for riders of that era compared to the riders of today, also why Rossi is so respected and regarded as the greatest there's ever been, because he has proved himself in both era's.

In reply to your "Post Script" Max: I don't believe GP riders have ever ridden without helmets in one form or another(the old "Piss-pots" for example)?
But I'm sure if helmets had become computer controlled(eg. possibly by changing their shape according to air flow for example) then older riders would surely be taking the piss out of modern riders helmets too. Lol 


Hawk.
PS: I am glad that riders have stopped using inflating air bags inside their leather suits. That was just taking things to an even greater "Micky Mouse" level! Lol

[HornetMaX]

Well I guess this comes back to the fact that the 500cc GP bikes were harder to ride and therefore required greater skills to ride than modern Moto GP bikes, and there's the reason for my huge respect for riders of that era compared to the riders of today, also why Rossi is so respected and regarded as the greatest there's ever been, because he has proved himself in both era's.

Are you aware that somebody could jump in and argue that  Sheene/Roberts/Spencer's bikes were easier to ride than whatever came before them ?

The farther you go back in time, the harder the bikes were to ride: this is close to be the very definition of a good bike (for sure, from a manufacturer point of view).
And luckily (for us), bikes tend to get better over time.

I'm very in favor of dropping *some* electronics, but the position "electronics is bad" is silly, for both bikes and cars.
It would be no different from saying "suspensions are for kids, real men ride with rigid frames, because suspensions helps you too much in taking that bumpy corner at crazy speeds".

And let's not forget the tires: let's all run on 60's tires, modern ones are so much better that it's too easy ... why not saying "I'm sure Rossi would suck on 60's tires, but we'll never know because of the conspiracy of tire makers (or honda)"

MaX.

[Hawk]

Well I guess this comes back to the fact that the 500cc GP bikes were harder to ride and therefore required greater skills to ride than modern Moto GP bikes, and there's the reason for my huge respect for riders of that era compared to the riders of today, also why Rossi is so respected and regarded as the greatest there's ever been, because he has proved himself in both era's.

Are you aware that somebody could jump in and argue that  Sheene/Roberts/Spencer's bikes were easier to ride than whatever came before them ?

The farther you go back in time, the harder the bikes were to ride: this is close to be the very definition of a good bike (for sure, from a manufacturer point of view).
And luckily (for us), bikes tend to get better over time.

I'm very in favor of dropping *some* electronics, but the position "electronics is bad" is silly, for both bikes and cars.
It would be no different from saying "suspensions are for kids, real men ride with rigid frames, because suspensions helps you too much in taking that bumpy corner at crazy speeds".

And let's not forget the tires: let's all run on 60's tires, modern ones are so much better that it's too easy ... why not saying "I'm sure Rossi would suck on 60's tires, but we'll never know because of the conspiracy of tire makers (or honda)"

MaX.

LOL! I like your style of argument Max! Hehe 

But seriously, you cannot be comparing the advantages of computer controlled systems on a modern MotoGP bike with the total non computer controlled advances made in the past classic era's? Surely not?? Lol 

The point is that in past era's prior to MotoGP it was the combination of rider talent and bike, now it's getting to the stage were a lot(but I stress not all) of a riders skills are being replaced by what the computer systems deem possible while riding the bike. That is wrong! It should be purely the riders skill to use the bike without any computer interference or computer aids to ride that bike to it's limits. This is not the case in the modern MotoGP era.  This is really the only argument I'm making here; that it should be totally rider skill on a bike without any computer related/controlled aids. That is what real racing is all about...... Simple as that.

Hawk.

[WALKEN]

its like unprotected sex, the stakes are higher and no one knows the exact limit but its more exciting.       

[HornetMaX]

LOL! I like your style of argument Max! Hehe 

But seriously, you cannot be comparing the advantages of computer controlled systems on a modern MotoGP bike with the total non computer controlled advances made in the past classic era's? Surely not?? Lol 

Well, according to your reasoning, yes I can.

Riding a bike with bad suspensions at he same pace than a bike with good suspensions requires more skill (no matter if the two suspensions have or not any electronics associated). So you're in favour of giving crap suspensions to everybody just for the sake of it ?

Some electronics is bad, some is debatable. Saying everything must go is nonsense.

Many keep forgetting that this is a constructor championship too (and primarily, despite the fact the public falls in love with the riders more, and rightly so).
No constructor would like to run in a championship with rules from 20yrs ago. They have simply no interest.

Again, top-classes like motoGP and F1 are all about technological challenge. By definition. Want something simpler ? Go SBK, STK, cb500 cup, ...

its like unprotected sex, the stakes are higher and no one knows the exact limit but its more exciting.       

Right, this is what I think the "old-schoolers" love: the adrenaline of riding something that is not rideable. But even in the 500cc era (towards the end) somebody realised that a bike with less power but a better power-curve was a better bike. An guess what ... it was Honda Damn  these pragmatic guys ...

MaX.

P.S.
Hope beta7 is coming out soon, so that we can stop talking crap just for lack of anything better to do

[nuovaic]

There's only one talking crap Max.
In fact if all your posts are removed from this thread, it becomes an enjoyable read!

[HornetMaX]

There's only one talking crap Max.
In fact if all your posts are removed from this thread, it becomes an enjoyable read!

Now that's a post that truly goes miles into making the thread enjoyable. Thanks Nouvaic !

MaX.

P.S.
I'm ready to bet hard on the fact Hawk has read no offense in the "talking crap" above, as he can see that I said "we" (which includes myself in "the crap"). And as he's a grown up.

[JJS209]

ohh thats not nice jan... 

[Napalm Nick]

hehehe great pics JJ 

[Hawk]

Lol.... Nooooo.... Absolutely no offence taken at all by Max's comments! 

Me, Max and some others have had these debates many times before over the years. Some things we agree on, others we don't. Max is a 4 stroke fan, I'm a hard 2 stroke fan and never the twain shall meet on this subject. Just the way it is.... But I do enjoy these debates from time to time in my efforts to try and convince others of, what I see in my opinion, as the insanity of the way Motorcycle GP Racing has gone since the demise of the 2 stroke era. But that is not to say that as a huge Motorcycle GP fan since I was 9 years old back in 1973, that I do not still enjoy watching and following modern MotoGP. This season in particular is gearing up to be one of the all time great seasons!  Let's hope it continues to be as exciting as it's been so far this year.

Basically all I'm saying is to ban all computer controlled aid devices on bikes to allow the riders to show their true skills in riding a GP motorcycle.
Motorcycle racing is and should rightly be all about man and machine working in unity together to get the best performance possible, and the introduction of computer aids has to me been like taking an artists masterpiece and then pissing all over it for the sake of commercial gain. Let's take a step back towards a true sporting spirit. But yes, this is surely one of those situations were a step back in time would do the sport the world of good in the true fans eyes?
As far as the factories are concerned: The biggest mistake FIM made was to allow the factories to dictate the way the sport should develop. The factories are purely interested in sales and development to that end; they don't really give a dam about the riders so long as they have the best riders available at any particular given period in time. In fact I'd certainly say that it is the fans that care more about the riders than the factories ever will..... But if FIM continue to allow the bike factories to dictate the on-going direction of MotoGP then the factories will continue to develop whatever they think will give them an edge over their opponents no matter what the effect on the sport as a whole.

The fine line between true sport and commercial gain is a delicate one to balance for the benefit of both parties..... I personally think that since the demise of the 2 stroke era, MotoGP has crossed that line by a large margin for the worse.

Basically MotoGP has sold it's soul in my opinion. 

Hawk.

[Hawk]

Love those pics JJ!! Hehe! 

Hawk.

[Napalm Nick]

Let me in big boys, I want my two pennerth! 

Basically all I'm saying is to ban all computer controlled aid devices on bikes to allow the riders to show their true skills in riding a GP motorcycle.

Hawk.

Generally speaking I would agree because I also have romantic memory tendencies. 

And we all remember Dani P falling immediately once Marquez took out his 'traction control sensor'. But then I read Dani's quote:
"Marc always rides at the limit – it seems like he's crashing all the time but he's not crashing." and it made me think that 'rider assists or not' as long as the bike is being ridden at the limit of its capabilities, and this is only achievable by a select few, then nothing has changed really:

man and machine working in unity together to get the best performance possible

On the flip side I am also an F1 fan getting disappointed that the limit is perhaps easily reachable by any 'Joe', and the Joe that drives is the one with the fattest cheque book, not the best one.

Another reason I am a 'Cup' race fan - all the machinery the same, let the best man win.

[HornetMaX]

Me, Max and some others have had these debates many times before over the years. Some things we agree on, others we don't. Max is a 4 stroke fan, I'm a hard 2 stroke fan

Slightly inaccurate: give me a 2s that is a better engine than a 4s, and I'll take the 2s. Give me an electric engine better than a 4s, and I jump on the electric engine (*). Give me an engine that runs with cola + mentos and is better than a 4s, and I'm in for it. I just don't think that is doable within today's rules (except the cola+mentos, which may be ok). But that's another debate

(*)
btw: http://video.corriere.it/prodigi-dell-energia-pulita-moto-elettrica-batte-ferrari-bmw/a333e8f6-e500-11e4-845e-5bcd794907be

Let me in big boys, I want my two pennerth! 

Please join, it's an open discussion (well, for most definitely).

Generally speaking I would agree because I also have romantic memory tendencies. 

And we all remember Dani P falling immediately once Marquez took out his 'traction control sensor'. But then I read Dani's quote:
"Marc always rides at the limit – it seems like he's crashing all the time but he's not crashing." and it made me think that 'rider assists or not' as long as the bike is being ridden at the limit of its capabilities, and this is only achievable by a select few, then nothing has changed really:

Exactly. Another argument: Rossi was good with 2s and good with 4s. He said "modern" bikes are easier to ride (which is true): but this means that riders can push harder on them. And it seems he can push them a tad harder than the average motogp rider, even today.

As far as a bike allows you to reach the edge, skill will always be needed. Do the current bikes allow the riders to reach the edge ? I guess so, given the number of accidents.

The Pedrosa crash has also led to a ton of hilarious comments like "Look what happens when a modern rider has no TC". I hope anybody sees why this reasoning is wrong.

OK, just in case some don't get it: TC being switched off instantly and without the rider knowing would be like changing your max engine power from 200hp to 400hp (or changing from a warmed up tire to a cold one), instantly and without the rider knowing. The 1st time he pins the throttle exiting a turn, he will fall the same. Pedrosa (and all the others) are capable of riding that bike with no TC. It would just be more dangerous and they would lap slower. Not even sure it would be more spectacular to watch.

On the flip side I am also an F1 fan getting disappointed that the limit is perhaps easily reachable by any 'Joe', and the Joe that drives is the one with the fattest cheque book, not the best one.

F1 is a total mess, I agree no problem on that: way too much money involved. Used to follow pretty closely, now if the race is before 11am I don't even bother to wake up. Yawn ...

MaX.

[Napalm Nick]

Yes I agree with the Dani/TCS reasoning. I mean if Marquez had emailed him saying he would be switching off TCS at that corner then Dani wouldn't of banged open the throttle I'm sure!

I love the Electric bikes. I surprise myself sometimes that I'm so keen to embrace them considering my romantic old-days-were-the-best general attitude. Maybe I am young after all.
I think it was at last years TT that the electric bikes matched the same Average Lap times as the 80's petrol bikes yet no-one hardly raises an eyebrow. To me that's amazing!. And they are improving much faster than petrol bikes ever advanced.

[BOBR6 84]

I quite like the electric bikes! Downside is the weight and lack of noise haha. Id have to tape a ghetto blaster on the thing and ask Warlock to make me some sounds 

They have potential to be very fast and im sure they will be hopefully sometime before we run out of fuel