• Welcome to PiBoSo Official Forum. Please login or sign up.
 
September 28, 2020, 09:32:31 AM

News:

GP Bikes beta18c available! :)


Anyone modified the 360 controller triggers?

Started by h106frp, June 13, 2015, 09:45:57 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

HornetMaX

Quote from: Klax75 on June 16, 2015, 12:59:48 AM
But all the buttons on the back can they be used as NEW buttons. I've used controllers like this and they have always been just alternate buttons for what you have already. Just hitting them on a different spot on the control. Now if it was four totally new trigger/button axis for me it would be useful.
I don't think they are new buttons, they can just be remapped to existing buttons.
But at the same time, as we have to have the thumbs on the sticks and 2 fingers for the triggers, how many buttons we need ? There are only 6 fingers left ...

MaX.

Klax75

I use both thumbs, both pointer fingers, and both middle fingers when I play GP Bikes with a XBox 360 or XBox One controller. And I'd still like two additional triggers. :)

HornetMaX

Quote from: Klax75 on June 16, 2015, 07:24:02 AM
I use both thumbs, both pointer fingers, and both middle fingers when I play GP Bikes with a XBox 360 or XBox One controller.
Like most of us I guess :)

Quote from: Klax75 on June 16, 2015, 07:24:02 AM
And I'd still like two additional triggers. :)
Ah, you meant additional triggers, not buttons ... additional triggers I could eventually see the usage, but additional buttons not really.

MaX.

h106frp

Quote from: HornetMaX on June 15, 2015, 09:06:26 PM
Just a matter of time.

MaX.

Problem is it looks like it will be heavily (software) configuration dependent to define the axis profiles so it might need more than just simple driver support  :(

Napalm Nick

As said elsewhere yes more analogue axis required.

Gpbikes needs analogue:

1. Throttle
2. Brake
3. Lean Bike L
4. Lean Bike R
5. Rider down
6. Rider up
7. Rider lean L
8. Rider lean R
9. Rider look L
10. Rider look R
11. Clutch
12. Rear Brake

Obviously these are axis so some will be combined to need one control. Did I miss any? For me at the moment I sacrifice rider lean for rider look. With a properly working head tracker this could be recovered.
"The post you are writing has been written at least ten times already in the last 15ish years. Its already been reported, suggested, discussed, ignored or archived (but mostly ignored). Why are you doing it again?"

HornetMaX

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 16, 2015, 07:57:30 AM
As said elsewhere yes more analogue axis required.

Gpbikes needs analogue:

1. Throttle
2. Brake
3. Lean Bike L
4. Lean Bike R
5. Rider down
6. Rider up
7. Rider lean L
8. Rider lean R
9. Rider look L
10. Rider look R
11. Clutch
12. Rear Brake

Obviously these are axis so some will be combined to need one control. Did I miss any? For me at the moment I sacrifice rider lean for rider look. With a properly working head tracker this could be recovered.
You didn't miss any, actually you counted some twice ... I'd say:


  • Bike lean L/R (that's a single axis, with positive and negative values)
  • Throttle
  • Brake
  • Rear Brake
  • Clutch
  • Rider lean F/B
  • Rider lean L/R

This makes 7 axes, even 6 if you combine Throttle and Brake on the same axis (but then hey, you won't be able to do burn-outs).
You can also save an extra axis on rider lean F/B: likely 2 buttons are enough for that (you don't really need to be 75.5% tucked in).

A pad provides 5 axes (4 on the two joysticks, 1 on the combined triggers) or 6 when using xinput (separate triggers). So we're mostly there, not sure more analog axes would help a lot.

For head look (look left, right) I only see two options: either you use two buttons or you go with head tracking/mouse look.

MaX.

h106frp

9 and 10 are basically resolved if you don't mind EDTracker. I have been using it all the time for 2 weeks now and its super reliable with the driver issue resolved to enable freelook emulation (absolute position) using openlook, mouselook was pretty terrible to use.

3 DOF is fine for GPB head movement at the moment.

thinks....   Second tracker for core body movement F/B/L/R  8)  :-\ ...... maybe

It should be even better with native support mainly due to the fact that we always know the absolute reference point in GPB is fixed looking straight out in front of the bike. Nice to have the choice of driver though as openlook has nice definable curves for axis movement rates.

Once you get over the novelty of huge view swings  ;)  and use it more naturally it really does restore that natural tendency to 'look where you want to go'. The best thing is you tend to forget you are even using it, the view just moving naturally up the track to the next corner. Slow hairpins where you tend to look across the turn are much improved.

Only downside is attaching it to your head somehow, OK if you use headphones otherwise its baseball cap/cycle helmet or girlie hairgrip thing.

Best cheap gadget i have bought for gaming  :)

Napalm Nick

Yep one more analogue set of axis would do it but more configurations would give more choices. I mean the top shoulder buttons - any reason these can't be analogue too? I did say some would be confined to one control.

Mouse look you need a third arm and hand for so that can be ruled out.  Head tracking I think from the discussions is irrelevant now, theres no interest in it, everyone's creaming for VR.

Pro's who ride as it should be (lol wind em up and let em go ); 1st person, understand the need for rider look for situational awareness and prefer an analogue axis to do it (only looking max left/right would be immersively grim).

I will post over at the Microsoft forum, they must have a 'hopes and dreams' topic too.
"The post you are writing has been written at least ten times already in the last 15ish years. Its already been reported, suggested, discussed, ignored or archived (but mostly ignored). Why are you doing it again?"

Napalm Nick

Yes H I followed your ed tracker thread with a certain joy I must say.

The general lack of interest in head tracking/multiple monitors etc rubbed off on me though so I learnt to use the controller for looking about. That's not to say the ed tracker option is dead in the water for me it still gets me excited so I may yet partake :)

"The post you are writing has been written at least ten times already in the last 15ish years. Its already been reported, suggested, discussed, ignored or archived (but mostly ignored). Why are you doing it again?"

HornetMaX

June 16, 2015, 09:03:53 AM #39 Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 09:11:14 AM by HornetMaX
Quote from: h106frp on June 16, 2015, 08:43:08 AM
It should be even better with native support mainly due to the fact that we always know the absolute reference point in GPB is fixed looking straight out in front of the bike.
Why would it be better ? I don't get the point.

Quote from: h106frp on June 16, 2015, 08:43:08 AM
Nice to have the choice of driver though as openlook has nice definable curves for axis movement rates.
Yep, that was my initial thought, opentrack may be more flexible than what EDTracker give by itself.
BTW the dll fix will be in the next release of opentrack.

Quote from: h106frp on June 16, 2015, 08:43:08 AM
Once you get over the novelty of huge view swings  ;)  and use it more naturally it really does restore that natural tendency to 'look where you want to go'. The best thing is you tend to forget you are even using it, the view just moving naturally up the track to the next corner. Slow hairpins where you tend to look across the turn are much improved.
I think this may well be the thing that pushes me to go with rider view :)

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 16, 2015, 08:50:06 AM
I mean the top shoulder buttons - any reason these can't be analogue too?
An analog button ? You mean what, pressure sensitive ?

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 16, 2015, 08:50:06 AM
Head tracking I think from the discussions is irrelevant now, theres no interest in it, everyone's creaming for VR.
I think that's wrong. The EDtracker thing costs nothing (40 quid). VR headsets are great but also have cons (cost, requirements, you're isolated from the real world, ...).
I an buy an EDTRacker tomorrow just for the sake of giving it a try. Not sure I'd do the same for a rift ...

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 16, 2015, 08:50:06 AM
Pro's who ride as it should be (lol wind em up and let em go ); 1st person, understand the need for rider look for situational awareness and prefer an analogue axis to do it (only looking max left/right would be immersively grim).
Why ? If it is done nicely it could be enough: press & hold, the view rotates not too fast, when you release it re-centers. So its associated to a on/off button, but it's kind of analog ...

But head tracking is better. You can give it a try if you have a web-cam (even if this kind of camera based head-tracking is not as good as an EDTracker).

MaX.

P.S.
I'm just waiting the "commercial grade" EDtracker version to arrive (should be July) before buying one.

h106frp

@Max, opentrack sets it centre when you press start and you tend to be looking at this point (start button) on the screen. The game view centre will always be immediately in front of the bike, center screen, and most  people sit centred to their monitor (not so good for living room TV/couch i suppose) so in joystick positions (assuming edtracker is already suitably calibrated)  this can always be 0,0 and no need for pressing the centering button to get started (plug and playness  ;) ).
Just a lazy observation having used it for a bit.
Once set the zero never drifts and never loses lock so it is true laziness by me :)

Very keen to see a commercialized version of EDTracker, I'm guessing a proper circuit board (not prototyping dev boards as currently) could shrink the device size down dramatically and further reduce cost. Will it have wireless/bluetooth connectivity and battery option?

Once a first person rider/driver/player nothing else will do  :) Never even bother checking 3rd person in any sim. A good first person view is the top requirement for me in anything that claims to be a 'simulation' and with VR it will be the only view with any real purpose.

.... my personal view on VR at the moment

Having taken a look at what on the way with VR it still seems it might be a few year away before its mainstream. I am a VR fan and i think the biggest benefit will be the stereoscopic sense of 'depth' it will bring to your surroundings. Looking over you shoulder for the first time ever must be a truly awesome experience for any game.

The cost is shocking though (for non vomit inducing experience) much higher than expected.. my idea of 'consumer' is not £1000 and most people will be looking at big system updates to support it properly. Not sure it is realistic for the VR device manufacturers to be dependent on GPU builders to get their devices working right and NVidia/AMD are more likely to build a (non compatible) device of their own than make any effort to support a 3rd party, Intel is probably their best hope.

We all expect the first consumer units will be out of date during the first release year so people will be wary of investing this much to get the ball rolling.

The lack of a standard framework for VR devices will put developers off and be a stumbling block for cheaper manufacturers.  I believe MS tried with DirectX but everyone has chosen to ignore it, i am surprised VESA have not stepped in to form some basic standards before it all unravels.

So for now its my lowly (although analogue) £30 head tracker  ;)

HornetMaX

Quote from: h106frp on June 16, 2015, 09:35:18 AM
@Max, opentrack sets it centre when you press start and you tend to be looking at this point (start button) on the screen. The game view centre will always be immediately in front of the bike, center screen, and most  people sit centred to their monitor (not so good for living room TV/couch i suppose) so in joystick positions (assuming edtracker is already suitably calibrated)  this can always be 0,0 and no need for pressing the centering button to get started (plug and playness  ;) ).
But even if EDTracker is supported natively by GPB you'll have to press the button to tell GPB what is your "centered" head position.
BTW, in open-track you can bind a key to re-center.

Quote from: h106frp on June 16, 2015, 09:35:18 AM
Once set the zero never drifts and never loses lock
Magnetometer power FTW !! [laughing at those IR trackers buahhahaha]

Quote from: h106frp on June 16, 2015, 09:35:18 AM
Very keen to see a commercialized version of EDTracker, I'm guessing a proper circuit board (not prototyping dev boards as currently) could shrink the device size down dramatically and further reduce cost. Will it have wireless/bluetooth connectivity and battery option?
One of EDTracker team members told me the  comm version will be functionally identical, just a better case, single circuit board, sturdier USB connector. No idea of the cost, but should be out soon.
They already have the hardware ready and are revamping the GUI before launch.

Quote from: h106frp on June 16, 2015, 09:35:18 AM
Once a first person rider/driver/player nothing else will do  :) Never even bother checking 3rd person in any sim. A good first person view is the top requirement for me in anything that claims to be a 'simulation' and with VR it will be the only view with any real purpose.
I agree, but on bikes I still like to see what the bike does, how it behaves and reacts. These are much easier to see from outside.
On car games for example (KRP, WRS) I'm much much less tempted by the 3rd person view.

MaX.

Napalm Nick

June 16, 2015, 10:15:11 AM #42 Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 10:27:39 AM by Napalm Nick
QuoteQuote from: Napalm Nick on Today at 09:50:06

I mean the top shoulder buttons - any reason these can't be analogue too?

An analog button ? You mean what, pressure sensitive ?

Taking the xbox controller as the example the lower shoulder buttons are analogue/pressure sensitive so why not the top?

QuoteQuote from: Napalm Nick on Today at 09:50:06

Head tracking I think from the discussions is irrelevant now, theres no interest in it, everyone's creaming for VR.

I think that's wrong. The EDtracker thing costs nothing (40 quid). VR headsets are great but also have cons (cost, requirements, you're isolated from the real world, ...).
I an buy an EDTRacker tomorrow just for the sake of giving it a try. Not sure I'd do the same for a rift ...

I can see why you think that, I mean your technical reasons I agree,  but reality reasons (the direction my comment came from) proves otherwise - there's you, me and H interested (by the feedback), maybe a few others keeping quiet or have already said they are waiting for VR- not enough to convince me its not irrelevant.

Quote
Quote from: Napalm Nick on Today at 09:50:06

Pro's who ride as it should be (lol wind em up and let em go ); 1st person, understand the need for rider look for situational awareness and prefer an analogue axis to do it (only looking max left/right would be immersively grim).

Why ? If it is done nicely it could be enough: press & hold, the view rotates not too fast, when you release it re-centers. So its associated to a on/off button, but it's kind of analog ...
But head tracking is better. You can give it a try if you have a web-cam (even if this kind of camera based head-tracking is not as good as an EDTracker).   

I already have a lot of experience with Head Tracking in simulators like FSX, F1, DCS, ARMA etc using TrackIR.  These games also allow you to assign look left/right non analogue buttons and control the speed of the look if you don't have head tracking. No one with a head track setup would choose this though - it is awful. But yes if this was a Make do topic rather than a Hopes and Dreams topic I would agree.

QuoteP.S.
I'm just waiting the "commercial grade" EDtracker version to arrive (should be July) before buying one.
It is highly likely I will also get this.

And H, I think mummy and daddies need to ensure little Johnnie isn't missing out on his human rights - means a £/$/E1000 will be spent without an eyelid being batted. Who's kid never got the new Xbox when a tear was shed?  £30 well spent on EDT, I wonder how much the 'retail' version will be. The only poor people in this world are the ones who can't find food to eat, no-one else.

Fortunately my fridge is empty so I wont be splashing out on VR at release.

Edit word cat to can't : nobody should eat cats 
"The post you are writing has been written at least ten times already in the last 15ish years. Its already been reported, suggested, discussed, ignored or archived (but mostly ignored). Why are you doing it again?"

h106frp

Your last point raises the bigger issue, what will little Johnnie be like after he has spent hours/days/weeks immersed in VR?, how long before its blamed for some unpleasant incident in the real world?  :(

Get ready for compulsory nag screens and health warnings every 20 minutes ('reality flash' -  ;D hah! i just thought up a new thing)

HornetMaX

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 16, 2015, 10:15:11 AM
Taking the xbox controller as the example the lower shoulder buttons are analogue/pressure sensitive so why not the top?
OK, so you want a couple of extra triggers (that's how they are called, despite the fact the name sucks).
I'm not sure you can find a position for them that is really usable. Where would you put them ?

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 16, 2015, 10:15:11 AM
I can see why you think that, I mean your technical reasons I agree,  but reality reasons (the direction my comment came from) proves otherwise - there's you, me and H interested (by the feedback), maybe a few others keeping quiet or have already said they are waiting for VR- not enough to convince me its not irrelevant.
For 30-40 quid, anybody using rider view should buy a head tracker no doubt. The additional immersion you get is huge. Then yes, a proper VR set is way better (for way more money, of course).

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 16, 2015, 10:15:11 AM
I already have a lot of experience with Head Tracking in simulators like FSX, F1, DCS, ARMA etc using TrackIR.  These games also allow you to assign look left/right non analogue buttons and control the speed of the look if you don't have head tracking. No one with a head track setup would choose this though - it is awful. But yes if this was a Make do topic rather than a Hopes and Dreams topic I would agree.
I agree, but head tracking is not so necessary for GPB and car games IMO. It may be more important for other games of course.

And ditch that TrackIR (or better, sell it on ebay before EDtracker gets popular) :)

MaX.