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Ride vs GP Bikes

Started by Urban Chaos 2.0, June 30, 2015, 01:00:03 PM

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doubledragoncc

I would say a Vulcan mile actually Max, its far more logical.

DD
GPBOC Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/c/IASystemsComputerControls; i7 12700K 5.1GHz Z690 ASUS Strix Z690-A Mobo 32GB 3600MHz DDR4 RAM ASUS Strix RTX3080 OC 10GB DDR6X ASUS Ryujin 360 AOI Cooler ROG Thor 1200w PSU in ROG Helios Tower Case.

HornetMaX

Quote from: doubledragoncc on July 01, 2015, 08:05:50 AM
I would say a Vulcan mile actually Max, its far more logical.
Admittedly, I'm not a big Star Trek fan :)

MaX.

Urban Chaos 2.0

You know it sure makes a lot of sense to disagree obstinately, and provide no basis other than the overt implication that you are right.

HornetMaX

Quote from: Urban Chaos 2.0 on July 01, 2015, 08:21:36 AM
You know it sure makes a lot of sense to disagree obstinately, and provide no basis other than the overt implication that you are right.
You're right on that, but I considered not useful to detail the arguments given that of all the users we have here, you're probably the only one that thinks Ride is a good simulator.

To be honest also, I don't really know where to start from: watching a 20sec video of ride is enough for me to be 110% sure it simulates very little of a real bike (but before you ask, yes, I did try Ride).

Aside from what Jamoz said (e.g. braking at will while leaning), the thing that always strikes me is the roll dynamic of the milestone games: the bike leans left/right in a very weird manner, as if it had very little inertia. I think Ride (and Milestone in general) may be using an explicit model for the bike dynamics: this is very very limited compared to what GPB does (multi-body). The explicit model is much simpler to implement and tune (that explains why they use it), but the results are not as good as with a good multi-body model. In the industry and the academic world, molti-body models have been the norm for a long time now (I'd say 15-20 years).

Other points that made me not very inclined to argue:

  • you seem to think GPB can't be played / is difficult to play with a joypad, which is uh, wrong. Some of the fast guys here can race 20 laps at fast pace without falling once.
  • you think GPB gives "more control", but even with the exact same control as Ride, GPB is way closer to the reality than what Ride is. How much control it gives is not relevant.
  • you mention playing with a keyboard. Sorry, that's a no-no.

But nobody here will make the effort to convince you: we've just informed that your statement "Ride is a good simulator" is most likely wrong.

Of course, anybody is still aloowed to enjoy Ride (and I know many here that play it).

MaX.

doubledragoncc

I am starting to like the fact I have AI riders to race against and dont have to go online, although the AI must be gay they are always up me bottom and touching me up!

I cant use a gamepad with it but with my handlebar unit its actually a bit of fun.My first test ride in it on video, they got me in the end........bugger lol

https://www.youtube.com/v/cMC7wPijSso

DD

GPBOC Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/c/IASystemsComputerControls; i7 12700K 5.1GHz Z690 ASUS Strix Z690-A Mobo 32GB 3600MHz DDR4 RAM ASUS Strix RTX3080 OC 10GB DDR6X ASUS Ryujin 360 AOI Cooler ROG Thor 1200w PSU in ROG Helios Tower Case.

doubledragoncc

Gotta agree Max. The steering is terrible in RIDE there is a massive hole in the center, if just that got fixed it would be sooooooooo much better, but its the same in all games coded for gamepads because of the sticks.

DD
GPBOC Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/c/IASystemsComputerControls; i7 12700K 5.1GHz Z690 ASUS Strix Z690-A Mobo 32GB 3600MHz DDR4 RAM ASUS Strix RTX3080 OC 10GB DDR6X ASUS Ryujin 360 AOI Cooler ROG Thor 1200w PSU in ROG Helios Tower Case.

Urban Chaos 2.0

There we go Max, that wasn't so hard. Firstly, I didn't say Ride was a good simulator. Secondly, GPB does give more control, and I have explained why that is relevant to a reasonable extent in my first post. Third, GP bikes is very playable, even with a keyboard, but it is not ideal. You can play with the 125cc, but for the other bikes, it's quite a problematic endeavour to game with a keyboard.

HornetMaX

Quote from: Urban Chaos 2.0 on July 01, 2015, 08:55:43 AM
There we go Max, that wasn't so hard. Firstly, I didn't say Ride was a good simulator
Really ?! Because in your first post I read this:

Quote from: Urban Chaos 2.0 on June 30, 2015, 01:00:03 PM
1) Ride is a simulator, not an arcade game.

The overall collision dynamics are also unrealistic, but the bikes are well-simulated.


Next point:

Quote from: Urban Chaos 2.0 on July 01, 2015, 08:55:43 AM
Secondly, GPB does give more control, and I have explained why that is relevant to a reasonable extent in my first post.
GPB gives more control, but that's not what makes GPB harder. You can put GPB with auto rider lean, auto clutch and auto everything so that it will give you the exact same control Ride gives you. But even at that point, GPB is a good simulator while Ride is not. And you'll see GPB will not be any easier with "less controls".

Quote from: Urban Chaos 2.0 on July 01, 2015, 08:55:43 AM
Third, GP bikes is very playable, even with a keyboard, but it is not ideal. You can play with the 125cc, but for the other bikes, it's quite a problematic endeavour to game with a keyboard.
GPB is not meant to be played with a keyboard. Would you play and FPS with a trackball or a trackpad ? It is playable, but ...

It's no big deal, but when one knows the level of detail GPB struggles to simulate (multi-body, nice tire-model, all masses and most of the rotating inertias, good stabilising control to translate input into forces and torques, ...) it hurts a bit when people thinks that Milestone's stuff can be called "simulator". If we stick to calling Ride a simulator, then it's a very bad simulator. In general and when compared to GPB.

MaX.

Urban Chaos 2.0

July 01, 2015, 09:28:47 AM #23 Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 09:32:31 AM by Urban Chaos 2.0
Oh I see the confusion, haha. I did not mean that Ride was as complex as GPB is, or that Milestone has gone through the trouble of integrating and compensating for, the many factors that constitute a true motorcycling experience. But it is well simulated. You see "well" is a subjective term, and I certainly do not mean it in a sense that would survive under scrutiny. I mean: "it's decent". As for control... That does matter a lot. You see, weight transfer and steering input are the two biggest reasons a bike will start losing stability, and Ride does not make it possible to shift weight or steer in a fashion that would easily cause wobbles, or an unstable rear-end. IN GPB you can shift your weight to the opposite side in no-time during full lean, and you'll low-side, bounce the rear too much, slide-and-save, or run into a tank-slapper. That can never happen with Ride.

HornetMaX

OK, we're converging :)

Quote from: Urban Chaos 2.0 on July 01, 2015, 09:28:47 AM
IN GPB you can shift your weight to the opposite side in no-time during full lean, and you'll low-side, bounce the rear too much, slide-and-save, or run into a tank-slapper. That can never happen with Ride.
In Ride that can never happen, that 's true. But that would not happen in Ride even if Ride allowed you to shift weight.

Low-sides, tank-slappers and other things do not happen in Ride because the physical model it uses is not good enough to make them happen: adding weight shifting ability would not change that.

That's exactly why, for me, it's a "bad" simulator, even compared to GPB (which is itself not a perfect we'd like it to be).

MaX.

Urban Chaos 2.0

July 01, 2015, 09:52:59 AM #25 Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 09:54:31 AM by Urban Chaos 2.0
Yes the reason is multivariable, and it certainly is because Milestone have not modeled their handling to be able to react that anyway. But you see, here is my point: Because Ride can not deliver that experience, it does not let you to maneuver in a fashion that would warrant such an experience. That is what I've been trying to say the whole time.

HornetMaX

Quote from: Urban Chaos 2.0 on July 01, 2015, 09:52:59 AM
Yes the reason is multivariable, and it certainly is because Milestone have not modeled their handling to be able to react that anyway. But you see, here is my point: Because Ride can not deliver that experience, it does not let you to maneuver in a fashion that would warrant such an experience. That is what I've been trying to say the whole time.
Are you say you're happy with a "simulator" that cannot low-side, high-side, tank-slap ?

MaX.

Urban Chaos 2.0

I'm saying: Despite that, Ride is fun because of the AI, the many bikes, and how every bike behaves differently and is quite similar to their real-life counter-parts in the things they share. GP bikes is the much better game, but Ride is a lot of fun without the hassle of needing a gamepad to ensure you don't keep crashing everytime you want to break your previous personal best lap-time. When I left the country to a rural one in Africa for my holiday, I had no game pad, but I had Ride and the GP bikes demo installed on my laptop. Both could be played with a keyboard, but Ride kept me the most busy. Had I had the full GP bikes game and a controller, I know I would have spent more time playing GPB then.

EdouardB

Quote from: Urban Chaos 2.0 on July 01, 2015, 09:28:47 AMYou see, weight transfer and steering input are the two biggest reasons a bike will start losing stability
Hmmm, no. I may agree about the steering input part in some situations, but with most (if not all) bikes, weight transfer improves stability! And it's even more true on a race bike.

HornetMaX

I guess by "weight transfer" Urban means "shifting the rider weight around" ... (and not the usual concept of weight distribution changing due to the bike/vehicle accelerating or braking).

MaX.