Control

[gmangnall]

It seems that the most important and basic think about a bike sim has never been captured - and that is basic control. I have tried to control this game with joysticks and wheels and they all feel utterly unrealisic.  With motorbikes you don't turn the steering wheel. The front wheel automatically points in the right direction that the bike is going in unlike a car. All the rider does is to set the lean angle by countersteering and the amount that the front wheel moves is tiny. Lets assume you are using a steering wheel for control - if you are going round a right hand corner you shouldn't really be turning the wheel much and it certainly should not be trying to centre itself. To stop the turn you should turn even more (and have LOTS of resistance) to bring the bike straight again and as the bike leans over to the left then the steering wheel should automatically also turn to the left to balance the bike. If the rider wants to make it turn quicker then he should try to stop the wheel turning and if the rider wants the bike to stop turning he should OPPOSE what the steering wheel is trying to do. Essentially the steering wheel should steer itself! Until we get this basic principle right -with a suitable controller then we're doomed to fail.

[Vini]

gp bikes can do this but you'll need a dual-axis handlebar-controller with two independent electric motors.

[BOBR6 84]

Depends what you want from a bike sim!

Personally im fine using a control pad.. What's more important for me is the bikes and physics and what is happening on the screen. Not so much about the control simulation.. Although I still like to see all the different ideas for a bike simulator/controller..

[Vini]

i agree but still i would really like to try building one of those controllers myself.

[WALKEN]

If more people thought of it as a (remote controlled) bike simulation then reality would be fact, unlike trying to simulate a reality not possible with a game pad.

If you want a more realistic feeling may I suggest using "Motion in Joy" and  PS3 pad and map "lean" to sixaxis and tilt the controller to lean in to the corners and still steer with the thumb stick. Its very hard but it works..

[davidboda46]

Lets assume you are using a steering wheel for control - if you are going round a right hand corner you shouldn't really be turning the wheel much and it certainly should not be trying to centre itself.

My home-built controller (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=2751.0) sort of simulates what you are talking about. Okay, it's far from perfect, but I've done a few things to improve the feel. First of (In GP-bikes), I calibrate left and right to be right and left instead (sort of counter steering). Then I calibrate the length of the wheel movement. So instead of turning the wheel all the way to define the range I go to around 22 or 24 on each side. Lastly I turn on the wheels FF, but have it turned of in the game settings. This gives the wheel a bit of resistance when you turn it, although unfortunately the resistance is constant. If I don't turn FF on (on the wheel) the steering is way to light.

The big problem right now is the bike physics that make it very hard to quickly change direction or change the line mid-corner. A lot of times the bike becomes unstable when you try to pick it up (even when you just slightly want to reduce the lean) and you loose the front. This behavior also varies a lot depending on corner camber and if the track goes uphill or down.

Cheers,

/David "Gonzo" Boda #46

[HornetMaX]

GPB supports what you're asking via Direct Steer Torque or Direct Steer Angle.
It's rather hard to use and requires a lot of training.

On top, you'd need a suitable controller.

gp bikes can do this but you'll need a dual-axis handlebar-controller with two independent electric motors.

What would you use the 2nd axis/motor for ?

MaX.

[Vini]

one for the lean axis (output only) and one as force feedback for the steering axis (that would for example make the controller countersteer automatically when the rear is sliding).

the question is, if it is possible to get all the necessary information from GP Bikes (fast enough) so that the controller actually feels like the handlebar of a real bike.

[HornetMaX]

one for the lean axis (output only) and one as force feedback for the steering axis (that would for example make the controller countersteer automatically when the rear is sliding).

the question is, if it is possible to get all the necessary information from GP Bikes (fast enough) so that the controller actually feels like the handlebar of a real bike.

Information is available and speed of it is up to 100Hz so it should be OK.

Personally I'm not sure that making the handlebars lean is a good idea: if your steering input is 1:1 (same steering angle as on a real bike) then with the handlebars leaning you may struggle to have the proper precision when steering. Would be different if you were sitting on a frame leaning with the handlebars (but this of course has other downsides).

I think Teeds did something for MXB, I can't remember for sure if his handlebars were able to move only fwd/back (for rider lean fwd/back) or also laterally.

MaX.

[Vini]

that's why you need sufficient force feedback on the steering axis.
then you shouldn't steer by accident because the handlebar leans.

[HornetMaX]

that's why you need sufficient force feedback on the steering axis.
then you shouldn't steer by accident because the handlebar leans.

It would still be hard: for a bike 1-2 degrees can have a lot of effect. Getting that level of finesse on something that leans independently of you may be hard.

MaX.

[Vini]

but imo having no real-world lean angle feedback at all is even worse.

[HornetMaX]

but imo having no real-world lean angle feedback at all is even worse.

Well, you have at least some visual feedback of the bike lean angle.

MaX.

[Vini]

.....i guess we'll have to try



do you think it's possible to embed multiple pressure sensors in a seat mat to track your ass when moving on your chair in order to control the rider movement with it?

[HornetMaX]

.....i guess we'll have to try

do you think it's possible to embed multiple pressure sensors in a seat mat to track your ass when moving on your chair in order to control the rider movement with it?

Try yes, except a leaning device will be pretty expensive, even for a try.

Sensors for ass movements ? Sounds like some decent complexity for little result.

MaX.