750cc 2 stroke "X" Class bikeMODS???

[Hawk]

No problem Matty.

I kind of second the idea of no electronics on the X bike, but probably not for the same reasons as Hawk.
Unless other things are tweaked, the X bike will be unrideable. But this is likely what Hawk is looking for so it's all good.
It's a nice experiment in fact.

Actually Max, despite all my bluster about electronics needing to be banned, you'd probably find that I'd agree with as to why you wouldn't want this bike to have electronics.... Try me. 

Bikes are not unridable if you realise that it is you that has to learn to control the bike and not totally rely on electronic control to keep the bike under control...... I mean how on earth did we ever survive without electronic controlled bikes, huh? God forbid! Lol 

Electronics is all about what they perceive as making MotoGP more exciting to watch because the electronics allow all decent riders on decent bikes to ride faster with much more stability and it's much more likely for the riders to be closer together on track..... You can see by the way the bikes are ridden today that if they tried to ride like that without electronic aids they would be flat on their arses every time. No way could they ride an old school bike like they do today and get away with it.... NO WAY! 

Haha! Just heard Kevin Schwantz talking about the differences between MotoGP and Old School bikes and riding style and modern MotoGP bikes abilities due to electronics... Basically he says what I've been saying..... I have to say... I totally agree with him! 

Hawk.

[HornetMaX]

Unless other things are tweaked, the X bike will be unrideable. But this is likely what Hawk is looking for so it's all good.
It's a nice experiment in fact.

On the contrary, even with aids turned off the bike is very rideable (look at my video) and in the right hands it could be a real weapon.

But you didn't change only the engine and the tyres, or am I wrong ?

Anti-wheelie is probably the biggest help, stops you flipping the bike to easily. The bike tends to spin the rear rather than wheelie most of the time... bloody thing eats tyres.

Told you about eating the tires in my 1st message in this topic. And this is why it is not realistic to give this kind of bike the same tyres of a 990 (but that's just for the records, I'm not pushing an argument): more brutal power + no TC = higher tyre temps ==> globally worse tyres. TC has allowed for better tyres in motogp.

EDIT- also the bike suffers from the fairings touching the floor in long turns due to it being a wide bike

Likely because it's leaning much more than the original varese.

@Hawk: people were riding without electronics, but not with the power levels of today (nor the top-speeds). And most of the riders of that era have had severe injuries.

If you want no electronics (which is a reasonable request) you'd have to tune down the power. But then you'd complain it's unfair, because you want bikes with no electronics but still as fast as today's bikes. It's not doable. Electronics makes bikes go faster: if you want to get rid of it, you'd have to accept slower lap times.

[Vini]

And most of the riders of that era have had severe injuries.

If you want no electronics (which is a reasonable request) you'd have to tune down the power. But then you'd complain it's unfair, because you want bikes with no electronics but still as fast as today's bikes. It's not doable. Electronics makes bikes go faster: if you want to get rid of it, you'd have to accept slower lap times.

Luckily GPB is a game so we don't have these problems.


MotoGP tyres seem to be fine with 270hp working on them.

[matty0l215]

Unless other things are tweaked, the X bike will be unrideable. But this is likely what Hawk is looking for so it's all good.
It's a nice experiment in fact.

On the contrary, even with aids turned off the bike is very rideable (look at my video) and in the right hands it could be a real weapon.

But you didn't change only the engine and the tyres, or am I wrong ?

Anti-wheelie is probably the biggest help, stops you flipping the bike to easily. The bike tends to spin the rear rather than wheelie most of the time... bloody thing eats tyres.

Told you about eating the tires in my 1st message in this topic. And this is why it is not realistic to give this kind of bike the same tyres of a 990 (but that's just for the records, I'm not pushing an argument): more brutal power + no TC = higher tyre temps ==> globally worse tyres. TC has allowed for better tyres in motogp.

EDIT- also the bike suffers from the fairings touching the floor in long turns due to it being a wide bike

Likely because it's leaning much more than the original varese.

@Hawk: people were riding without electronics, but not with the power levels of today (nor the top-speeds). And most of the riders of that era have had severe injuries.

If you want no electronics (which is a reasonable request) you'd have to tune down the power. But then you'd complain it's unfair, because you want bikes with no electronics but still as fast as today's bikes. It's not doable. Electronics makes bikes go faster: if you want to get rid of it, you'd have to accept slower lap times.

Edited engine curve. Rc990 wheels and the longer swingarm from the 990.

When i say it eats tyres. Its more my riding, with some managment they are ine. Just dont overheat them. But this is just my limited testing so when other people get involed this shouldnt be a problem. The bike has only got 230bhp same as the 990 so the tyres hould be able to handle it fine. But yes i see what you mean.

This bike get over way more than the 990 or varese . Its closer to the moto gp bikes. But if thats what we are competing against then i suppose thats a better thing...

[HornetMaX]

MotoGP tyres seem to be fine with 270hp working on them.

Right. And that's because ... because they have TC: remove TC on a motogp bike and they tyre manufacturer has to go back to the drawing board and will come back to you in 6 months with a tyre much less performing. It's not hard to explain it: TC = less spinning = lower operating temperature = allows for "softer" compounds = allows for more grip (for the same race length).

This is how things work in reality. Then in GPB, given that the TC is not very sophisticated, you may be able to partially get away with it (meaning the 990 tyres are better then the reality to compensate for the not-so-good  TC, and this could partially save you on a bike with no TC).

But if the X bike ends up eating too much the tyres, we just have to tweak the corresponding parameter to give it even better tyres (I mean it, I'm not being sarcastic).

The bike has only got 230bhp same as the 990 so the tyres hould be able to handle it fine. But yes i see what you mean.

No, it's not only a matter of power (see above).

This bike get over way more than the 990 or varese . Its closer to the moto gp bikes. But if thats what we are competing against then i suppose thats a better thing...

Rephrase please I can't understand what you meant here.

[Vini]

ah sorry but then look at the 990cc motogp bikes. lot of power but not much tc, they were sliding the bikes much more than now and it was no problem for the tyre.

[HornetMaX]

ah sorry but then look at the 990cc motogp bikes. lot of power but not much tc, they were sliding the bikes much more than now and it was no problem for the tyre.

Sliding is one thing, spinning under power is another. 500 era bike could spin on straights every time you opened the throttle.

[Hawk]

I seem to remember in the GP500 documentary "Faster" that they explained that the theory that spinning the tyres-up being a bad thing for wear and tear is actually a false premise...... I can't remember exactly what they said was the reason, but the general idea I got was that apparently the spinning-up of the tyres during acceleration throughout a corner and the exit creates a change in the immediate surface compound of the tyres that resists wear and tear more than you'd think would be the case and doesn't in actual fact wreck the tyres as would be expected.

@Max: Yes, old school riders did suffer more injuries than todays riders, but a major reason your not seeing the severe injuries today is because of the protection now built into the riders suits that the old school riders didn't have access to back then.
Then of course the modern electronics make the modern MotoGP bikes SO much more stable and easier to ride than the old school bikes.
Electronic aids do allow riders to ride these modern powerful bikes relatively safely, that I do agree with, but I totally disagree that the modern bikes could not be ridden without the electronics..... Yes they would be SO much more unstable and harder to ride than they currently are but that's were the real cream and the truly skilled riders would rise to the top of the pile.... and yes we'd have more riders severely injured and killed than currently is the case today, but that is motorsport, it's dangerous! If people don't like dangerous sport then they don't have to take part, right?

There's always been a fine line between safety and ripping the heart out of dangerous sports through allowing over zealous do-gooders dictating and taking safety measures to the extreme - Sensible safety measures like plenty of run-off areas at accident prone spots and body protection built into suits doesn't take away from the spirit of dangerous sports, but when you start introducing what is basically an electronic nanny to govern your inputs to a large degree to try and assure you cannot make major mistakes is when the soul of the sport dies, and that's what has happened and is still in the process of happening to MotoGP, but only us oldies can see it happening because the younger generation have never known anything different and therefore cannot see the changes happening.

There is no doubt that these electronic aids ENHANCE a riders ability to ride the bikes faster than would be possible without the electronics.... This in anyone's book is cheating - no other word for it, and no other sport would allow it to happen. It goes against the spirit of what sporting competition is all about. MotoGP has become a pantomime, a façade of what it used to be, and until they ban electronic aids then entertaining as it is, a façade it will always remain.

But having ranted on about all that I still watch MotoGP with a passion! Lol 

Hawk.

[HornetMaX]

I seem to remember in the GP500 documentary "Faster" that they explained that the theory that spinning the tyres-up being a bad thing for wear and tear is actually a false premise...... I can't remember exactly what they said was the reason, but the general idea I got was that apparently the spinning-up of the tyres during acceleration throughout a corner and the exit creates a change in the immediate surface compound of the tyres that resists wear and tear more than you'd think would be the case and doesn't in actual fact wreck the tyres as would be expected.

Not what I heard reported from a tyre engineer working in motogp these days.

Sounds strange too: if the change you mention is good, why not overheat the tyres all the time and have them always in the "better surface compound" state ?

[Vini]

maybe the slide deforms the tyre and/or shifts the contact patch a bit to the middle of the tyre?

...on the electronics in motogp discussion: imo they should go back to the 990cc electronics. relatively safe and nice big slides.

[Hawk]

I seem to remember in the GP500 documentary "Faster" that they explained that the theory that spinning the tyres-up being a bad thing for wear and tear is actually a false premise...... I can't remember exactly what they said was the reason, but the general idea I got was that apparently the spinning-up of the tyres during acceleration throughout a corner and the exit creates a change in the immediate surface compound of the tyres that resists wear and tear more than you'd think would be the case and doesn't in actual fact wreck the tyres as would be expected.

Not what I heard reported from a tyre engineer working in motogp these days.

Sounds strange too: if the change you mention is good, why not overheat the tyres all the time and have them always in the "better surface compound" state ?

But that was the strange phenomena they found.... that in actual fact the tyre wasn't overheating while it was spinning up under those circumstances.... I know it sounds weird, I thought so to, but apparently that was the case..... I'll have to watch it again and see if I can post the excerpt from the video. 

Hawk.

[matty0l215]

With the current power. No traction control activated and riding the bike in a controlled mannor. The tyres cope fine.

@Max

Sorry, it was a question in general. What is the bike meant to be compared against. The moto gp bikes or the rc990

[HornetMaX]

With the current power. No traction control activated and riding the bike in a controlled mannor. The tyres cope fine.

Give it to our fast fellas here, I'm not sure they will ride it "in a controlled manner"

@Max

Sorry, it was a question in general. What is the bike meant to be compared against. The moto gp bikes or the rc990

I don't know, you should ask vin and hawk

[Meyer#12]

Hey hey! I am usually pretty gentle to the tyres and riding in a kinda controlled mannor

I think it was supposed to be able to compete with the MotoGP mod bikes with the right riders onboard

[matty0l215]

Id like to give you guys but im not publicly releasing the bike until i hear back from Piboso. (2 days still waiting...)