World Racing Series beta14 available!
Started by August1, October 12, 2016, 06:31:11 AM
Quote from: grimm on October 16, 2016, 04:24:36 PMEven after a bunch of thought on the matter, I just can't see why load cells wouldn't work for left-right rider movement (not steering). One on each side of the tank of a sit on system so when you are full hang off and a leg is hooked over the tank pushing a panel with a load cell, it would deploy the knee and get the rider out off the side of the bike, rather than letting the auto lean deal with it as I currently do with the desk top system I mess around with from time to time, also allowing for you to counter weight the bike out of a power slide or stay tucked into the bike at high speed cornering if you desire such a movement to improve upon a lap time that is being held back by the rider hanging way off causing instability. If I ever get around to digging up my spare frame and all the associated bits and bobs for it to build a full sit on system I may attempt it just to see how it work, worst that happens is I just tick the auto lean box again and give up.
Quote from: RC45 on October 17, 2016, 09:00:53 AMThis may be the better a better use for load cells. I was just thinking the nature of load cells needing constant pressure, which is what we do when we lean or counter steer - we apply a varying amount of steady state pressure.
Quote from: HornetMaX on October 17, 2016, 09:37:03 AMQuote from: RC45 on October 17, 2016, 09:00:53 AMThis may be the better a better use for load cells. I was just thinking the nature of load cells needing constant pressure, which is what we do when we lean or counter steer - we apply a varying amount of steady state pressure.This is the point that I can't manage to explain to you.Let's say you're leaning at 20deg in steady conditions (stable lean angle, constant speed, constant track and tyre conditions): at this point your bars are at a given angle (not necessarily zero, but smallish) and you have to apply a torque to the bard to hold everything steady. The torque you have to apply is usually not big, but it depends on the bike overall geometry (bike, tryres, masses, ...). It could even be zero in some conditions. Let's say the torque is 2N (Newtons).Now let's imagine you want to lean more, to 30deg. What you say is: I want to lean more so I need to apply more torque. You're kind of expecting that there's fixed amount of torque (let's say 3N) that will make you go to 30deg lean and then, to hold that lean, you have to hold the 3N torque. That's wrong.Most of the time you'll have to apply some extra torque (e.g. 3N) to make the bar turn, then the bike will start leaning more and once you're at 30deg, you'll have to reduce the torque, Once you're at 30deg it may be that to hold that lean you'll only need 2N, just like at 20deg (or maybe more or maybe even less !).There's no simple link between a steady steering torque and a steady lean angle, at least not on a real bike.After that, you can try to use a load cell to dictate the target lean angle to GPB (after all that's not any crazier than using a joystick angle).But the justification for that cannot be "because that's what we do on a real bike", because it's not.
Quote from: RC45 on October 17, 2016, 06:19:19 PMIt seems you assume I do not understand or know much about motorcycle control. Note how I stated: we apply a varying amount of steady state pressure.I understand exactly how motorcycle control works and that we need to over come various steady state conditions by various inputs.
Quote from: RC45 on October 17, 2016, 06:19:19 PMThe discussion is about the suitability of load cells as the input sensor of choice, and if the load cell needs to have dynamically applied filtering to the input and perhaps even output signals, filtering that is driven by yet another set of signal analysis based on lean angle, speed etc. then so be it and that is the subject of the final controller design.
Quote from: RC45 on October 17, 2016, 06:19:19 PMIf we are actually trying to overcome/counter forces presented to the rider by the bike, then we should at least have them brought to the table by the bike and not simulated by our own controlled responses to the dynamics of the situation - and as far as I understand GP Bikes is able to represent the forces presented by the bike in this equation very well.
Quote from: RC45 on October 17, 2016, 06:19:19 PMI also understand passions run high and any 'new comer' on the scene will rile up the locals that have rehashed these subjects ad infinitum Just throwing my idea in the ring
Quote from: RC45 on October 17, 2016, 08:47:45 PMWho said my ideal design would have fixed bars?I would envision the "rigid" state of the bars to be provided by the countering force of an electric motor setup. At rest that force is zero and the bars are free to turn. As you speed up, the gyroscopic stability of the rotating wheel is simulated by the stiffening force applied to the steering stem as fed back from the game (which is the source of the force notification in our scenario).The current state of the bars would be driven by feedback from GP Bikes - this is what I was unsure about, whether GPB was setup for this very scenario.In essence, if the game can setup the bars state and attitude and the player can then respond as they would in real life we might just have the perfect match.Granted this prototype controller would need $1000+ worth of load cells, USB interface boards and FFB motors on top of the actual construction - quite the commitment
Quote from: h106frp on October 18, 2016, 07:24:12 AMGPB drives the roll servo and the steer angle servo.The stem is indeed strain gauged as a classic torque transducer So this allows true torque steer with DSA feedback, i think when we discussed this previously we decided this would be the most faithful reproduction of the steering process
Quote from: h106frp on October 18, 2016, 09:08:45 AMOption 2 but the steering bars angle goes to the steer servo.
Quote from: h106frp on October 18, 2016, 09:08:45 AMI am not sure how i would use GPBs FFB signal and i am not even sure what parameters are used to compute the DirectX controller style FF signal.