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August 15, 2020, 04:54:14 AM

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The State of Modern MotoGP, Past and Future.....

Started by Hawk, July 18, 2019, 12:00:46 PM

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Myst1cPrun3

The modern GP Bikes actually get started on the rollers in anywhere from 3rd to 5th gear, due to the nature of them. It would make qualifying a bit of a non issue due to the nature of it, I remember was it Ron Haslam that was a little off pace but made up loads after a bump start as he was good at it, or something similar lol.

So it could be a bit unfair, but certainly interesting. Failing that, a rolling safety car start could be interesting.

I mean the starts as they are have very little electronic interference, as the ECU, by Dorna Spec, Disables antiwheelie, so whenever you see a rider launch they have to manually adjust the throttle to keep front down. (Pre 2015 and Magneti Marelli Control Electronics they were just pin and go Launch Control, Like WSBK)

Im not sure on how electronics could adjust compression, as that, even on today's machines is still a mechanical process. Maybe adjust ignition timing etc IDK

Hawk

Maybe they could design an electronically controlled compression release valve, maybe via very slightly opening the exhaust valve during initial compression or something just for that fraction of a millisecond to get the engine to fire into life and then it shuts it straight away?

Myst1cPrun3

I honestly am not sure. I've never had reason to look into adjustable compression before now. Will be a research point for tonight I feel :D

Vini

pretty sure ducati is already doing those kind of shenanigans with their desmodromic valves, hence the power.

not sure it could be used to enable easy bumpstarts, though.

Myst1cPrun3

I'm not sure. I've never found any info on electronically adjustable compression in my internet travels, so anything could happen.

Desmo-Dromic Valves have been somewhat negated due to tech advancements, to the point I'm not sure they would even provide an advantage anymore, as valve openings are generally electronic these days, and thus can be timed very accurately.

To my knowledge however Ducati's do use them, but I get the impression that's more for traditions sake than any actual benefit these days.

I suppose you could have a map that changes the valve opening times, as well as the spark and injection timings thus making the engine start more effective, however I'm not entirely sure what changes would have to be made to this system.

Shift-Cam Technology may be of some use in this as well, which is basically the motorcycle equivalent of V-TEC, where above a certain RPM the cam alters itself by picking up an extra part to change something. I have no Idea what, I do know the new S1000RR has it perfect, and that it only really comes into its own when used with the BMW electronics.

(Interesting Tidbit - I read somewhere that the BMW Shift Cam system is electronically controlled, but the electronics that are required to control it are outlawed in BSB, and the 'Control' electronics didn't have an option to use the tech, so the 2019 s1000RR in BSB is actually running an old pre 2019 model engine, or an altered engine to remove the shift-cam, and not benefiting from Shift Cam at all, hence the not great results in BSB, but in Superstock and on the World Stage its doing very well)





Different WHat MotoGP Needs topic:

Get Rid of the Gyro Cams. They're cool looking and all, but a static cam just shows so much more bike movement, and makes an onboard feel so much more raw.
Love the Pramac Youtube channel, they stick Non-Gyro GoPros on the bikes in interesting positions, and the quality is far beyond anything 'official MotoGP' have come out with, except the non Gyro Go Pro laps done by Crafar and Hodgy and co.

I mean come on look at the comparisons (yes IK these aren't the same rider but they still illustrate the point):







Myst1cPrun3

Found this on fb, and immediately thought of you @Hawk



Myst1cPrun3


guigui404

It looks like he looks better on a YAMAHA R1 4 STROKE

Hawk

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on January 15, 2020, 03:35:15 PM
Quote from: Docfumi on January 15, 2020, 10:26:15 AMI think all the rider aids are hurting the sport a bit because now it's like watching arcade racing when we all want to see REAL racing. I mean think about it, as far as MotoGP goes we see a lot fewer high-sides and a lot less tank slappers which are a true thing of the past, and I feel these are good things but it makes racing look boring to the point I have to think why even have gears, oh wait! MotoE is here already. I want to see guys work the bike around the track for 26 laps, I want to see riders come from nine seconds back and win the race (not just Marquez). It was nice to see Fabio20 fight up the front but much like Zarco5 he could not get the job done and I started thinking this is really BS! Everyone is screaming that the ECU and other rider aids are killing the sport. I think it all comes down to the tyres and how good you set your bike up around them. Sure some bikes work better than others depending on the track and even the rider sometimes but most of it is that all bikes are on tyres and they only have two days to test them before the race, for F*ck sake every weekend a new compound. Again I call BULLSH*T! It's one thing to make a sport safe and another thing to castrate it.

Highsides: last year MotoGP had more than bsb. BSB has no TC/aids, MotoGP does, and this highside pattern has been seen for the past few years.

So I'd say that's not really a valid point.

As for MotoE, I don't know if you've seen it, but the racing is superb despite the lack of gears. Close, and often rough. High stakes too as a bike of that weight hitting s Leg is gonna hurt.


Bike setup is a vital part of MotoGP now, and to be fair, I am not a big fan of how 'finnicky' they are. You're either on the perfect setup, or you're off the pace significantly.
(Or your Marc Marquez but he's a different entity all on his own)

That being said, I appreciate the talent the engineers and riders have for diagnosis and applying squiggly lines to actual mechanical parts.
I find that awe inspiring to be honest.


As for safety elements, I agree with Manu. They are aids, to help the rider not to keep him (or her) safe. They make the bikes faster, and push technology to the edge. As that is what grand Prix racing is about. PUSHING TECHNOLOGY. Pushing the rider to new heights mentally and physically, by holding on to something seemingly breaking the laws of physics, and mentally by everything going by quicker than ever.

As mentioned with BSB and highsides, you could actually argue that TC and AW is making the sport More unsafe due to the riders relying on them. However this argument is short-lived, because, as Manu, rightly said, GP bikes would be unusable without them. And that's even more unsafe.

I believe that to keep the essence of GP Racing, which is pushing technology,(as all top level Motorsport has always  been) then these aids are essential, and if you have to limit power to remove this, you're losing the very foundation of Motorsport.

As for Hawks point of the 'whole point of sport' the actual equipment seems to be neglected in all your arguments.. it's not all about the person you know. You don't see a high jumper in jeans and flip flops? No they have the very best TECHNOLOGY available to them, to AID them in jumping as Efficiently and as high as possible.

There is no difference here with GP racing, except the fact the technology available is different.


What are you talking about with a high-jumper? What electronically controlled computer aided technology does a high-jumper use? More importantly, what technology aid as such does a high jumper use to aid them in actually jumping higher that they couldn't jump as high if they were not using it? :o

I can see why there is such a difference in our arguments as to what sport is all about and the subsequent debates about electronic aids or no electronics aids.... It's cause the advocates for electronic aids think that the sport of MotoGP revolves all around technology and it's advances and implementations to keep pushing the technological limits of machine and rider alike, whereas the advocates for having no electronic aids in sport are more towards a sport being a competition just between the competitors(riders) natural skills on a machine that cannot be by-passed or aided in those skills via electronically controlled devices that are not controlled in real-time by solely the rider himself.

It's either Cricket or not Cricket..... In other words, you either play fair or cheat to win at all costs. Which is it?

Myst1cPrun3

Quote from: Hawk on January 15, 2020, 04:10:56 PM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on January 15, 2020, 03:35:15 PM
Quote from: Docfumi on January 15, 2020, 10:26:15 AMI think all the rider aids are hurting the sport a bit because now it's like watching arcade racing when we all want to see REAL racing. I mean think about it, as far as MotoGP goes we see a lot fewer high-sides and a lot less tank slappers which are a true thing of the past, and I feel these are good things but it makes racing look boring to the point I have to think why even have gears, oh wait! MotoE is here already. I want to see guys work the bike around the track for 26 laps, I want to see riders come from nine seconds back and win the race (not just Marquez). It was nice to see Fabio20 fight up the front but much like Zarco5 he could not get the job done and I started thinking this is really BS! Everyone is screaming that the ECU and other rider aids are killing the sport. I think it all comes down to the tyres and how good you set your bike up around them. Sure some bikes work better than others depending on the track and even the rider sometimes but most of it is that all bikes are on tyres and they only have two days to test them before the race, for F*ck sake every weekend a new compound. Again I call BULLSH*T! It's one thing to make a sport safe and another thing to castrate it.

Highsides: last year MotoGP had more than bsb. BSB has no TC/aids, MotoGP does, and this highside pattern has been seen for the past few years.

So I'd say that's not really a valid point.

As for MotoE, I don't know if you've seen it, but the racing is superb despite the lack of gears. Close, and often rough. High stakes too as a bike of that weight hitting s Leg is gonna hurt.


Bike setup is a vital part of MotoGP now, and to be fair, I am not a big fan of how 'finnicky' they are. You're either on the perfect setup, or you're off the pace significantly.
(Or your Marc Marquez but he's a different entity all on his own)

That being said, I appreciate the talent the engineers and riders have for diagnosis and applying squiggly lines to actual mechanical parts.
I find that awe inspiring to be honest.


As for safety elements, I agree with Manu. They are aids, to help the rider not to keep him (or her) safe. They make the bikes faster, and push technology to the edge. As that is what grand Prix racing is about. PUSHING TECHNOLOGY. Pushing the rider to new heights mentally and physically, by holding on to something seemingly breaking the laws of physics, and mentally by everything going by quicker than ever.

As mentioned with BSB and highsides, you could actually argue that TC and AW is making the sport More unsafe due to the riders relying on them. However this argument is short-lived, because, as Manu, rightly said, GP bikes would be unusable without them. And that's even more unsafe.

I believe that to keep the essence of GP Racing, which is pushing technology,(as all top level Motorsport has always  been) then these aids are essential, and if you have to limit power to remove this, you're losing the very foundation of Motorsport.

As for Hawks point of the 'whole point of sport' the actual equipment seems to be neglected in all your arguments.. it's not all about the person you know. You don't see a high jumper in jeans and flip flops? No they have the very best TECHNOLOGY available to them, to AID them in jumping as Efficiently and as high as possible.

There is no difference here with GP racing, except the fact the technology available is different.


What are you talking about with a high-jumper? What electronically controlled computer aided technology does a high-jumper use? More importantly, what technology aid as such does a high jumper use to aid them in actually jumping higher that they couldn't jump as high if they were not using it? :o

I can see why there is such a difference in our arguments as to what sport is all about and the subsequent debates about electronic aids or no electronics aids.... It's cause the advocates for electronic aids think that the sport of MotoGP revolves all around technology and it's advances and implementations to keep pushing the technological limits of machine and rider alike, whereas the advocates for having no electronic aids in sport are more towards a sport being a competition just between the competitors(riders) natural skills on a machine that cannot be by-passed or aided in those skills via electronically controlled devices that are not controlled in real-time by solely the rider himself.

It's either Cricket or not Cricket..... In other words, you either play fair or cheat to win at all costs. Which is it?

High jumping was relevant as there is a fair amount of tech in their clothing, the materials used and the processes to make it.
Not only that, but the shoes are specially designed as well to have optimal performance, and naturally each jumper wants the best and is using the manufacturer's to push the clothing as far as possible for their needs.

Now, the lack of electronic aids would increase the gaps between the machines, making being on the best machine even more important than now, and thus, you could still have the best rider on the grid on the worst bike, and him, or her, still be last.

If you were so set on having equal rider competition, then, although it may go against your programming, I strongly recommend MotoE.

Those are the same bikes, all reliant on corner speed, (much like the old 250s) and have a very aggressive power delivery to match. As well as this, they weigh a lot, so braking distances are increased, and rider strength for muscling the bike around the circuit is much more important.

And despite the fact they are electric bikes, the motor mapping is controlled and limited by the organisers, (get a few maps set already I believe but don't quote me on that) and there are no aids like TC or AW.

For the actual MotoGP class, I will repeat, you do not seem to be realising that MotoGP is a team sport. It is more than just the riders, and the rules have to cater to this as well.
This rule set, and electronic aids allow the bikes to go faster than theyve  ever gone before, and that is EQUALLY, if not MORE important than the riders for sales and figures. I know I actually pay more attention to the bikes than the riders these days, and I suspect I'm not the only one.

After all, you can't go to a dealership and buy a Marc Marquez, but you can buy a Honda RC213V - S.

As for it being cricket or not, as long as the rules permit it, it's legal. Just because they're not YOUR rules doesn't make it cheating or wrong

Hawk

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on January 15, 2020, 04:27:26 PM
Quote from: Hawk on January 15, 2020, 04:10:56 PM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on January 15, 2020, 03:35:15 PM
Quote from: Docfumi on January 15, 2020, 10:26:15 AMI think all the rider aids are hurting the sport a bit because now it's like watching arcade racing when we all want to see REAL racing. I mean think about it, as far as MotoGP goes we see a lot fewer high-sides and a lot less tank slappers which are a true thing of the past, and I feel these are good things but it makes racing look boring to the point I have to think why even have gears, oh wait! MotoE is here already. I want to see guys work the bike around the track for 26 laps, I want to see riders come from nine seconds back and win the race (not just Marquez). It was nice to see Fabio20 fight up the front but much like Zarco5 he could not get the job done and I started thinking this is really BS! Everyone is screaming that the ECU and other rider aids are killing the sport. I think it all comes down to the tyres and how good you set your bike up around them. Sure some bikes work better than others depending on the track and even the rider sometimes but most of it is that all bikes are on tyres and they only have two days to test them before the race, for F*ck sake every weekend a new compound. Again I call BULLSH*T! It's one thing to make a sport safe and another thing to castrate it.

Highsides: last year MotoGP had more than bsb. BSB has no TC/aids, MotoGP does, and this highside pattern has been seen for the past few years.

So I'd say that's not really a valid point.

As for MotoE, I don't know if you've seen it, but the racing is superb despite the lack of gears. Close, and often rough. High stakes too as a bike of that weight hitting s Leg is gonna hurt.


Bike setup is a vital part of MotoGP now, and to be fair, I am not a big fan of how 'finnicky' they are. You're either on the perfect setup, or you're off the pace significantly.
(Or your Marc Marquez but he's a different entity all on his own)

That being said, I appreciate the talent the engineers and riders have for diagnosis and applying squiggly lines to actual mechanical parts.
I find that awe inspiring to be honest.


As for safety elements, I agree with Manu. They are aids, to help the rider not to keep him (or her) safe. They make the bikes faster, and push technology to the edge. As that is what grand Prix racing is about. PUSHING TECHNOLOGY. Pushing the rider to new heights mentally and physically, by holding on to something seemingly breaking the laws of physics, and mentally by everything going by quicker than ever.

As mentioned with BSB and highsides, you could actually argue that TC and AW is making the sport More unsafe due to the riders relying on them. However this argument is short-lived, because, as Manu, rightly said, GP bikes would be unusable without them. And that's even more unsafe.

I believe that to keep the essence of GP Racing, which is pushing technology,(as all top level Motorsport has always  been) then these aids are essential, and if you have to limit power to remove this, you're losing the very foundation of Motorsport.

As for Hawks point of the 'whole point of sport' the actual equipment seems to be neglected in all your arguments.. it's not all about the person you know. You don't see a high jumper in jeans and flip flops? No they have the very best TECHNOLOGY available to them, to AID them in jumping as Efficiently and as high as possible.

There is no difference here with GP racing, except the fact the technology available is different.


What are you talking about with a high-jumper? What electronically controlled computer aided technology does a high-jumper use? More importantly, what technology aid as such does a high jumper use to aid them in actually jumping higher that they couldn't jump as high if they were not using it? :o

I can see why there is such a difference in our arguments as to what sport is all about and the subsequent debates about electronic aids or no electronics aids.... It's cause the advocates for electronic aids think that the sport of MotoGP revolves all around technology and it's advances and implementations to keep pushing the technological limits of machine and rider alike, whereas the advocates for having no electronic aids in sport are more towards a sport being a competition just between the competitors(riders) natural skills on a machine that cannot be by-passed or aided in those skills via electronically controlled devices that are not controlled in real-time by solely the rider himself.

It's either Cricket or not Cricket..... In other words, you either play fair or cheat to win at all costs. Which is it?

High jumping was relevant as there is a fair amount of tech in their clothing, the materials used and the processes to make it.
Not only that, but the shoes are specially designed as well to have optimal performance, and naturally each jumper wants the best and is using the manufacturer's to push the clothing as far as possible for their needs.

Now, the lack of electronic aids would increase the gaps between the machines, making being on the best machine even more important than now, and thus, you could still have the best rider on the grid on the worst bike, and him, or her, still be last.

If you were so set on having equal rider competition, then, although it may go against your programming, I strongly recommend MotoE.

Those are the same bikes, all reliant on corner speed, (much like the old 250s) and have a very aggressive power delivery to match. As well as this, they weigh a lot, so braking distances are increased, and rider strength for muscling the bike around the circuit is much more important.

And despite the fact they are electric bikes, the motor mapping is controlled and limited by the organisers, (get a few maps set already I believe but don't quote me on that) and there are no aids like TC or AW.

For the actual MotoGP class, I will repeat, you do not seem to be realising that MotoGP is a team sport. It is more than just the riders, and the rules have to cater to this as well.
This rule set, and electronic aids allow the bikes to go faster than theyve  ever gone before, and that is EQUALLY, if not MORE important than the riders for sales and figures. I know I actually pay more attention to the bikes than the riders these days, and I suspect I'm not the only one.

After all, you can't go to a dealership and buy a Marc Marquez, but you can buy a Honda RC213V - S.

As for it being cricket or not, as long as the rules permit it, it's legal. Just because they're not YOUR rules doesn't make it cheating or wrong

What are you on about?
What technology in clothing on a high jumper allows them to jump higher? What technology in footwear allows a high jumper to jump higher? The only technology in their footwear is to provide comfort and safety against injury for the high jumpers foot, the footwear does not give the high jumper any extra ability to jump higher at all! That cannot be said about electronic aids for riders in MotoGP allowing riders to ride faster than they otherwise would be able to without them. Lol! ;D

SideNote: Oh... By-the-way, Your going off topic talking about "high jumping", this is a thread about "the state of modern motoGP, past and future", please respect and stick to it. Thank you. Phffff!!! :P ;D ;D  I'm just pulling your chain mate, but I think I've made my point. Hahaha!  ;D  ;D  ;)

So you are saying that without electronic aids the bikes would be further apart in the race, and with electronic aids it allows a rider to ride better than he would without them allowing them to ride closer together? Good luck with being proud about shouting that one out. Your looking through your technology goggles alone again mate. Lol! ;D
Maybe you should take a closer look at all the old GP500 races.... There where many closely fought GP500 races of that era, and more exciting to watch too.

Who said anything about equal rider competition?

I did point out that MotoGP is a team effort when talking about winning championships in a previous post, so no, I'm not forgetting that at all. :P ;)

Obviously you have a differing opinion on this, but I'd probably be more likely to buy a product that was used by one of my sporting heroes than not. Of course it helps if that product is also well established and highly rated as being the best, but having a sporting icon sponsored by that company is a great asset for sales to the sporting public, more so than any other reason I would say. The fact that you've stated you are somewhat of a techno-freak probably puts you in the minority category for reasons to just why the public buy a product.

The whole meaning of the "It's Not Cricket" saying is about fair play and sticking to the rules of the game..... All I'm saying is that in MotoGP they have let the manufacturers have too much influence on the rules.... They have basically sold the soul of MotoGP to the devil... Gutless they are and have ruined the sport from what it was in the process! We either want fair play in sport(as any decent person would have it) or anything goes so long as you win(as the manufacturers/techno-geeks would have it), which sporting stance do you want as the norm?

Myst1cPrun3

In response to that, a high jumpers clothing is specialised to allow maximum flexibility and support, and the shoes are designed in much the same way. All while being light and comfortable.

But anyway,
I have watched a load of gp 500 races, and I must say, while there are some good ones, I personally don't get as excited about it as modern races (by modern I mean 4 stroke era so 03-present), and the good close races are certainly harder to come by.

And it's not that I hate that era, or am a technology rider assist freak, (I do like computers and so on, and enjoy the data side of gp racing) but this opinion, is just GPs.

When it comes to Superbike and Production based machinery, I'd take a late 80s to late 90s sbk any day over the current shite, but being more of a superbike fan anyway than a GP fan, I guess that's expected.

In reality MotoGP is a sport designed to push the limits of technology, the limits of physics, the limits of the riders, and go as fast as possible, while putting on a show.
This for me is what has currently been achieved. A MotoGP machine should be as fast as a motorcycle can physically go and, the electronics help achieve that. It's not called the 'pinnacle of motorcycle technology' for nothing.

As for how much the teams play in the rules of MotoGP I cannot say, as I've not really looked into it. However I would hazard a guess it's less input than the f1 teams. Now there is a sport where the teams rule.

As for fair play, the rules are the same for everyone. It's about as fair as it can get. Just because the rules aren't what you would pick doesn't make them bad, or incorrect, or kill the sport.

Intact the electronic aids actually make the sport FAIRER as they even out the field, due to their ability to work with theme bike and help remove some problems with the setup/handling. Thus putting the bikes, and by extension the riders, on a more equal playing field, and therefore making it more competitive

Hawk

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on January 17, 2020, 12:05:38 AMIn response to that, a high jumpers clothing is specialised to allow maximum flexibility and support, and the shoes are designed in much the same way. All while being light and comfortable.

But anyway,
I have watched a load of gp 500 races, and I must say, while there are some good ones, I personally don't get as excited about it as modern races (by modern I mean 4 stroke era so 03-present), and the good close races are certainly harder to come by.

And it's not that I hate that era, or am a technology rider assist freak, (I do like computers and so on, and enjoy the data side of gp racing) but this opinion, is just GPs.

When it comes to Superbike and Production based machinery, I'd take a late 80s to late 90s sbk any day over the current shite, but being more of a superbike fan anyway than a GP fan, I guess that's expected.

In reality MotoGP is a sport designed to push the limits of technology, the limits of physics, the limits of the riders, and go as fast as possible, while putting on a show.
This for me is what has currently been achieved. A MotoGP machine should be as fast as a motorcycle can physically go and, the electronics help achieve that. It's not called the 'pinnacle of motorcycle technology' for nothing.

As for how much the teams play in the rules of MotoGP I cannot say, as I've not really looked into it. However I would hazard a guess it's less input than the f1 teams. Now there is a sport where the teams rule.

As for fair play, the rules are the same for everyone. It's about as fair as it can get. Just because the rules aren't what you would pick doesn't make them bad, or incorrect, or kill the sport.

Intact the electronic aids actually make the sport FAIRER as they even out the field, due to their ability to work with theme bike and help remove some problems with the setup/handling. Thus putting the bikes, and by extension the riders, on a more equal playing field, and therefore making it more competitive

Okay..... I hear what your saying, but let me ask you this question:
If we had one rider that was very skilled at controlling his throttle hand to control the traction of the rear tyre manually, and another rider who was good but not as good as the first rider controlling his throttle hand for the TC manually, then they bring in electronic computer controlled TC so that the traction of the rear tyre was always at an optimum synchronised with the riders throttle setting etc, etc, would you agree that it's taking away from the first riders skill-set and allowing the second rider an advantage against the first better skilled rider cause the second rider can now easily match the first riders previous manually applied throttle hand skills with the help of the electronic aided TC control that he now has available to him?
Then ask yourself if that second rider can now justifiably say that he is able to match the first riders lap times(due to the TC aided controls) that he genuinely thinks he deserves to be matching the first riders lap times cause of that new electronic aided TC device he now uses when previously he couldn't keep up with the first riders lap times cause he honestly didn't have the same talent to control the TC manually like the first rider could do? Do you really think that is fair in anyway shape or form to the first rider?

In F1, the teams don't have as much power over the rules as many people seem to think.
Yes the governing body does take note of any concerns and what time frame the teams would need to bring in any major rule changes, but there are many rules the teams would want scrapping straight away too.
It's like right now with those major changes coming in, in 2021, the teams screamed blue-murder so to speak to not have those rules implemented, it was the governing body together with Ross Brawn talking to the actual drivers that came up with those new major changes, not the teams themselves.

Then on the other-hand, their is the fact that most of the drivers would jump at the chance to go back to the old V12 pure combustion engines, but due to political correctness by the governing bodies and also the manufacturers wishes I guess that will never happen now.
So there are different attitudes with the teams and drivers.... The team tend not to want any major changes in rulings and yet the drivers seem to relish any major changes, especially if it's going back towards the fully manual glory days of Grand Prix Racing, it excites them.

I personally think that F1 are now heading in the right direction away from electronic controls and very much more a manually driven car, which they very much are today..... If they banned the teams from having access to engine mapping while the cars where racing then the F1 cars would actually now be a manually driven car; they have gotten rid of most of the electronic driver aids they used to use not so many years ago now.... And a lot of people still don't realise that fact.

Having said that, there can be bias decisions made still in F1.... What I'd call F1 politics. Like when Charles(Ferrari) ran Hamilton(Merc) off the road at Monza(Italy) and didn't even get a penalty, it was suspected that they didn't penalise Charles cause he was driving the Ferrari for the win at the time and the organisers probably thought the Italians would end up rioting if he'd have directly lost the GP cause they penalised him.

But when it comes down to Dorna, I don't think they have real control over what goes or happens in MotoGP, I personally think the MotoGP Teams do have much greater say and control in MotoGP than teams do in F1 these days.

Myst1cPrun3

First point about the skills.

#1

As I've already said various times now, setting the electronics up to get the most out of the bike is a skill in itself, so, while it may mean there is slightly less of a focus on throttle control,

(there still is quite a large focus on it as there is a huge misconception on how good go electronics actually are... It's reported that the new S1000RR electronics are 'better' and can do more than the Magneti marelli gp ones, not saying mmnis bad, but still not quite as good as people think)

...slightly less focus on throttle control, but more focus on being able to understand the bike and the electronics.

You can ride around the electronics, Marc Marquez is famous for this, as he under-rotates the rear wheel using the rear brake,to overcome the Honda's engine braking, which is a known issue with the Honda's.

So in that regard understanding what's going on and adapting to the electronics is just today's version of adapting to suspension deficiencies.

In short, no I don't agree with the fact it's unfair, as obviously the second rider is able to make up for a potential lack of talent using setup, and therefore, the first rider is obviously lacking in that area, as well as their ability to read the bike and set it up correctly.


#2

F1 teams have a committee to suggest and implement rule changes. It was more powerful before with Bernie 'in charge' as they believed he didn't know what he was doing with modern technology. (Rightly so as well)

As for Brawn, a former, legendary designer of highly successful modern cars, there is more trust there, that he'll do right by F1 so they feel there is less need to intervene.

I will say, that F1s needs are different drastically to MotoGP, both in terms of fan base, tech, and how they actually get their speed, so there are different decisions to be decided.

Also, the 2 stroke in F1 thread, that was being looked into by the teams I believe, and I think it was even suggested by a team. So was the halo.

They still have some substantial control. Even if they don't make it as public.

I will also say, I haven't watched an F1 race since the halo was introduced, and since I got access to bt sport and MotoGP.

As for it being manually driven, I don't believe that for a second. The f1 cars have adaptive electronics in themselves that is constantly learning and changing to get the most out of all it's systems. It can be overridden with stuff like the over take buttons etc but it's still not near a manually driven car.

If you want to watch some good open wheel, equal fair racing in full manually operated cars, watch indycar.Its 10x better, and the racing is better too.

Bias decisions are everywhere, look at dorna and mm93. Rossi hit him and got a grid penalty. Fensti grabbed manzis brake and got a ban.

Mm93 being the Spanish guy he is has done much worse, more often, and most I've seen is at Argentina with a ride through