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The State of Modern MotoGP, Past and Future.....

Started by Hawk, July 18, 2019, 12:00:46 PM

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Myst1cPrun3

ABS: This is perhaps the only thing I disagree with. It is perhaps more unsafe as it removes feel from the brakes and upsets the bike, as well as reducing the available braking force.

TCS: For road bikes, (above a 125) it is almost a MUST HAVE. especially in the UK where our roads are utter b*****s, and there is oil/diesel everywhere, it can be a life saver. I'm all for the thrill of riding the bike, but I'd actually like to ride the bike, not fall over on oil a 1993 diesel bus dropped as it's an old PoS... On the road this is an absolute MUST, to say people are less of a biker, or old farts because of it, is incredibly naive, horrendously detached from reality, and frankly... Stupid.

Cruise Control: I get the appeal, and in a van or car it's great. Not sure how it would work on a motorcycle however. I'd have to try it I guess.

Power Modes: Not so much necessary, but it allows much more choice when riding. It means the same bike can be calm and tame on a commute to work, but then still put up a good show on the track, with minimal fuss. It opens up so much more for fuel economy as well, making it useful for those adventure/off road bikes.When combined with a flyby wire throttle that can have curves mapped to it rather than just a cable, it really enables customisation for a rider, and allows them to get the most out of a bike 100% suited to them.
Extremely useful it they're new to either riding, or the bike, or both.

Quick Shifter: A really satisfying piece of equipment to use. Once one is used, it is very unlikely the rider will go back to without, given the choice.
Combined with reverse GP shifting it is a hugely enjoyable feeling, and really adds to the feeling of riding the bike. And sometimes they make a cool noise as it cuts the ignition not the fuel  ;)  ;D

(My Dad is a perfect example of quick Shifter changes, 40 years riding, adamant it isn't needed, got a new bike with one fitted. After weeks of persuasion to not take it off like he wanted, and to try it once, he now is on about flipping his shift pattern to GP to better use it. Says it's a game changer and enjoyed riding more as he could focus on the riding and not worrying about missed shifts)

Auto Blip: I haven't used one so I don't know about it. However I imagine the feeling to be very comparable to a quick-shifter.

Launch control: on road bikes this is just a willy waving tool. On race bikes it's almost essential. Depends what it's wanted for.


Hawk

Quote from: poumpouny on February 23, 2021, 11:28:09 AM@hawk, you definitely born in the wrong time, but i bet that even if you were in the 2stroke hard core riding time, you will probably argue about an older way to ride bike, but anyway, you know you can just deactivate all this aid, and ride the most kamikazy way you want. It's not because you don't like it that manufacterer don't need to put it on modern bike, again until you can desactivate it !

Actually I was born in the right time..... Been privileged to have witnessed and experienced both eras first hand. ;)  :P

HornetMaX

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on February 23, 2021, 01:08:50 PMABS: This is perhaps the only thing I disagree with. It is perhaps more unsafe as it removes feel from the brakes and upsets the bike, as well as reducing the available braking force.
We're talking road bikes here, not race ones. Wet road, emergency braking: I take even a half-decent ABS, you take your brake feeling and we see who comes out alive ?

Even on a dry road, if you're braking so hard the ABS is kicking in, you're probably pushing too much for a public road. So either don't, or just lower the ABS setting. If you're on a track with your bike, of course you can switch it off.

Myst1cPrun3

Quote from: HornetMaX on February 25, 2021, 10:50:50 AM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on February 23, 2021, 01:08:50 PMABS: This is perhaps the only thing I disagree with. It is perhaps more unsafe as it removes feel from the brakes and upsets the bike, as well as reducing the available braking force.
We're talking road bikes here, not race ones. Wet road, emergency braking: I take even a half-decent ABS, you take your brake feeling and we see who comes out alive ?

Even on a dry road, if you're braking so hard the ABS is kicking in, you're probably pushing too much for a public road. So either don't, or just lower the ABS setting. If you're on a track with your bike, of course you can switch it off.


I'm on about road bikes here too.

They add considerable distance to stopping should you need to stop quickly (emergency stop).

And should you make a mistake into a turn they judder can upset the bike and cause a crash.

Also, EU law prevents manufacturers from allowing their systems to be turned 100% off, meaning that no matter what, all new bikes have it on all the time. It can be turned down but (depending on manufacturer) it usuallt still cuts in even at 'country' road riding speed/style

HornetMaX

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on March 01, 2021, 08:00:33 AMAlso, EU law prevents manufacturers from allowing their systems to be turned 100% off, meaning that no matter what, all new bikes have it on all the time. It can be turned down but (depending on manufacturer) it usuallt still cuts in even at 'country' road riding speed/style
And they do this because, as everybody knows, ABS is bad for safety, of course.

Hawk

March 03, 2021, 12:19:54 PM #95 Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 12:21:40 PM by Hawk
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 01, 2021, 11:01:38 PM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on March 01, 2021, 08:00:33 AMAlso, EU law prevents manufacturers from allowing their systems to be turned 100% off, meaning that no matter what, all new bikes have it on all the time. It can be turned down but (depending on manufacturer) it usuallt still cuts in even at 'country' road riding speed/style
And they do this because, as everybody knows, ABS is bad for safety, of course.

ABS is a safety feature, no doubt about that, no one is arguing that is a fact, but it's a feature that should be a personal option for each individual rider.
What I personally have an issue with is the fact that it's forced upon the rider. It's just another example of a mothering state taking away personal choice, telling one how one will do things rather than allowing one to make a choice.
For many riders who have little experience and don't ride a bike regularly, riders we used to call "Sunday Riders" not bikers I can understand that ABS would be a sensible option for them to have in operation as those kind of riders are more likely to get themselves into trouble, but for the experienced regular rider, the daily rider, it takes away from their skills and experience as a rider, simple as that.

The mothering state needs to stop!

Myst1cPrun3

Quote from: Hawk on March 03, 2021, 12:19:54 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 01, 2021, 11:01:38 PM
Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on March 01, 2021, 08:00:33 AMAlso, EU law prevents manufacturers from allowing their systems to be turned 100% off, meaning that no matter what, all new bikes have it on all the time. It can be turned down but (depending on manufacturer) it usuallt still cuts in even at 'country' road riding speed/style
And they do this because, as everybody knows, ABS is bad for safety, of course.

ABS is a safety feature, no doubt about that, no one is arguing that is a fact, but it's a feature that should be a personal option for each individual rider.
What I personally have an issue with is the fact that it's forced upon the rider. It's just another example of a mothering state taking away personal choice, telling one how one will do things rather than allowing one to make a choice.
For many riders who have little experience and don't ride a bike regularly, riders we used to call "Sunday Riders" not bikers I can understand that ABS would be a sensible option for them to have in operation as those kind of riders are more likely to get themselves into trouble, but for the experienced regular rider, the daily rider, it takes away from their skills and experience as a rider, simple as that.

The mothering state needs to stop!

I agree with most tbh, and perhaps I worded badly. (More than likely)

ABS was introduced for safety, it's just that in practice this isn't the case, as it is juddering and (at the minute) not smooth in its application.

A new rider, (like me) would find this very 'unnerving' (I do) as the suspension on anything that's not a superbike  is not what you'd call good for providing feedback. Add that into bad road conditions like in the UK, and then add constantly releasing and reapplying the brakes into that.... It simply isn't safe.

It's funny really the only one that isn't developed for speed, but is developed for safety turns out to be the one that is perhaps the most unsafe  ;D  ::)

HornetMaX

Quote from: Hawk on March 03, 2021, 12:19:54 PMABS is a safety feature, no doubt about that, no one is arguing that is a fact
Well, no one except MysticPrune, apparently.

Myst1cPrun3

March 04, 2021, 08:13:47 PM #98 Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 08:16:07 PM by Myst1cPrun3
Quote from: HornetMaX on March 04, 2021, 04:41:17 PM
Quote from: Hawk on March 03, 2021, 12:19:54 PMABS is a safety feature, no doubt about that, no one is arguing that is a fact
Well, no one except MysticPrune, apparently.


Designed for safety. Doesn't actually make the bikes safer. (At least from the manufacturer I rode, I imagine it varies) on each system.

(But from my, albeit, 'limited' experience of road bike ABS, and also In cars, it didn't help one bit and was a massive hinderence into the control I had over the motorcycle. I don't know if that was the setting it was on or what, but it wasn't good)


At the very least the ability to turn it off would be nice.

If you ask me I'd force people to learn with no aids whatsoever, and attend an 'advanced riding course' before they go past the 'CBT' level but different topic.

Also, If you're going to make childish sarcastic replies, that's fine, you do you, but at least do yourself the favour of spelling a name right.

Especially as it's written both above and below the messages. Lol

 :o  ::)


HornetMaX

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on March 04, 2021, 08:13:47 PMDesigned for safety. Doesn't actually make the bikes safer.
I'm really unsure about what that means.

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on March 04, 2021, 03:24:35 PMA new rider, (like me) would find this very 'unnerving' (I do) as the suspension on anything that's not a superbike  is not what you'd call good for providing feedback. Add that into bad road conditions like in the UK, and then add constantly releasing and reapplying the brakes into that.... It simply isn't safe.

It's funny really the only one that isn't developed for speed, but is developed for safety turns out to be the one that is perhaps the most unsafe  ;D  ::)
What is funny is that bad road conditions (like in the UK) are exactly the situations in which ABS is needed more: uneven surface, wet, suddent change of grip (puddle, gravel, etc). Same for below-par suspensions, ABS will help even more.

I don't know which kind of ABS you base your judgment on, maybe you've tried something from 30 years ago and concluded there. There are very few situations in which not having ABS is better and they all involve some pretty unlikly combination of prefectly smooth surface and extremely skilled (and focused) rider.

If you think you're better off without ABS, it's OK, it's your opinion. Saying ABS as safety feature doesn't work is something else. And is wrong.

But as I feel that you think I'm some sort of an idiot (which again, you're obviuously free to do), then I'll point you to others that surely have more authority. Juyst a couple, but I'm sure you'll find more if you want:

https://www.motorcycle.com/features/why-you-need-abs-on-your-next-motorcycle.html

https://www.rideapart.com/features/361866/ask-rideapart-abs-worth-it/

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on March 04, 2021, 08:13:47 PMAlso, If you're going to make childish sarcastic replies, that's fine, you do you
Childish ?! Where ?!

Hawk said nobody argues with ABS being a safety feature, not even him. But you do (or at least it seems you do) and I pointed this out: where's the problem ?

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on March 04, 2021, 08:13:47 PMbut at least do yourself the favour of spelling a name right.

Especially as it's written both above and below the messages. Lol
Yeah, sorry for not spelling Myst1cPrun3 right. That was rude from me. Hope you'll recover.

Myst1cPrun3

Bad road conditions are exactly what ABS is designed for.

And it's exactly where it should shine.

However the systems that I have seen, (and the 2019 CBR650r system I tried) is currently not advanced enough for it to function, certainly at its full capabilities. It was juddery, rough, and provided 0 feel from the bike as to what the front end was doing.

Again other systems may vary in their capabilities, but it's not 'advanced' enough to be usable in a realistic situation.

When I say 'Designed for safety, but doesn't make bikes safer,' it's not supposed to be a contradiction, and it's not me saying it doesn't work as a safety feature, (it does on cars), that's my crappy typing, it's supposed to mean more the actual abs operation isn't optimised enough to actually be feasible. (ABS in general is a safety feature)
It upset the bike and the front end was vague in what it was doing. And in real riding that was not ideal, especially for new riders to be learning on.

If it can be implemented to it's 'full capabilities', like we see in cars where it's quite smooth and still keeps the feeling, (mostly) then I see it becoming more of an option.

As for my name, it's going to take years of therapy for me to recover... Don't know how I'll survive. :o

HornetMaX

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on March 05, 2021, 01:59:43 AMBad road conditions are exactly what ABS is designed for.

And it's exactly where it should shine.
And it's exactly where it shines.

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on March 05, 2021, 01:59:43 AMHowever the systems that I have seen, (and the 2019 CBR650r system I tried) is currently not advanced enough for it to function, certainly at its full capabilities. It was juddery, rough, and provided 0 feel from the bike as to what the front end was doing.
When it kicks in, it's thinking you're about to lock the front: what the rider feels (or not) when it kicks in is essentially irrelevant because when you lose te front, most of the times you're going down. It just tries to prevent that.

Now, if riding the cbr the abs kicks in so often that it becomes annoying then there are 2 possibilities: either you're riding like a mad man on public roads / bad grip conditions or there's a problem on the bike (any decent dealer can check this).

But again, if it kicks in on very heavy breaking, it's just doing its job.
BTW, I think on the CBR650R the ABS has 2 settings (sport, circuit): did you play with that ? EDIT: nah, it's the CBR1000RR that has that, my bad.