My Adventures with Direct Steer w/ Torque

[HornetMaX]

To make an incredibly good physics engine only to hamper it with extremely dumbed down controls?

My opinion: DST and DSA may (may) make sense only if you have a FFB input device. DST/DSA on a joypad sounds like doing high precision work with boxing gloves on.

[passerBy]

My opinion: DST and DSA may (may) make sense only if you have a FFB input device. DST/DSA on a joypad sounds like doing high precision work with boxing gloves on.

As in Direct Steering Angle? Ok Indeed. Especially this particular mode. But I wouldn't call a force feedback wheel a rare controller (after all, I got one myself some time later after leaving the forum). And after trying the directsteer=2 mode with it, I instantly felt, "this is it!" I still remember suggesting Piboso a mode where you could actually handle the wheel as it was the bars, and the result has exceeded my expectations.

By the way, Max. I saw you had thoughts on a new kind of a controller that could resemble turnable handlebars, but with loadcells... Don't you think it could be implemented way easier? I think that a direct-drive wheel would already be next to perfect, especially if the peak forces can be smoothed out.
After all, we do not input torque into the handlebars, we always try to set some angle. It's just that after picking up speed we have to apply much more torque to turn the bars very little. So, I think the answer here is still an angular system with some kind of an enhanced precision angle reading and with more feedback.

I haven't tried directsteer=1 in a while, but as far as I can remember my joystick experiments, it was next to impossible to set the bars straight during the start. Another reason why I insist on that we input angle, not torque.

[HornetMaX]

After all, we do not input torque into the handlebars, we always try to set some angle.

I disagree on that statement. To me, riding has always felt more of pushing/pulling the bars (i.e. applying a torque) than setting the bars' angle (except for extremely low speeds, like below 50Kmh).

Personally I think DSA is more applicable than DST but:

• It still has the virtual rider in the middle (as the physical model has a torque input, not an angle input).
• We have no proper input device with FFB: I hate the idea of using a steering wheel + pedals ...if I have to make a compromise I can as well make it all the way and use a joypad (or use stuff with no FFB, like doubledragoncc's system).

[passerBy]

After all, we do not input torque into the handlebars, we always try to set some angle.

I disagree on that statement. To me, riding has always felt more of pushing/pulling the bars (i.e. applying a torque) than setting the bars' angle (except for extremely low speeds, like below 50Kmh).

However, in the end it's all about the angle.

Personally I think DSA is more applicable than DST but:

• It still has the virtual rider in the middle (as the physical model has a torque input, not an angle input).

It has. But at least that's not as big a compromise as basically having an autopilot do all the steering for you.
As for the physical model, back at the time where was only torque based DS I had the idea of the sim's engine applying all torques and rotational resistance imitations sans the rider's to the controller, after which the resulting steering angle would be fed back into the engine. In my opinion, theoretically this could be the best possible solution. Except we don't have controllers of that grade available, and I'm not sure whether the input lag would be acceptable for the engine.
Well, seems like Piboso managed to make a good compromise with this DS mode. At least I enjoy it a great deal, even if on a relatively cheap Logitech wheel. I still think that using a direct drive wheel with some massive Nm rating, the resulting experience could be very close to the real deal. I wouldn't want to hit a kerb like that though Hence the suggestion of FFB filtering.

• We have no proper input device with FFB: I hate the idea of using a steering wheel + pedals ...if I have to make a compromise I can as well make it all the way and use a joypad (or use stuff with no FFB, like doubledragoncc's system).

Well, you might hate the idea, but have you tried it yet? The amount of information I get from the FFB in this mode is worth the trouble, I'd say. And since I use car sims as well (what I bought the wheel for in the first place), the less trouble of switching/reconfiguring controllers.
Looking at all these Klax videos here I tend to think that DS with torque might be manageable with a joypad (really like how he handles the rider lean with the thumbstick), but after what I had experienced with the wheel, there's no going back for me. You might argue that it's all wrong, but... it's simply another level of immersion when you can actually feel something from your bike while riding. Now if only there was headtracking-controlled rider lean implemented...

Edit: I really like the DD's controller, but using it to command the AI a certain bike lean angle is something religiously wrong for me  And without any FFB it looks like a wasted opportunity, which is extremely saddening.

[HornetMaX]

After all, we do not input torque into the handlebars, we always try to set some angle.

I disagree on that statement. To me, riding has always felt more of pushing/pulling the bars (i.e. applying a torque) than setting the bars' angle (except for extremely low speeds, like below 50Kmh).

However, in the end it's all about the angle.

No. And if you write down the equations of the bike you see that immediately.
Let's say we agree to disagree.

As for the physical model, back at the time where was only torque based DS I had the idea of the sim's engine applying all torques and rotational resistance imitations sans the rider's to the controller, after which the resulting steering angle would be fed back into the engine.

When DSA has been suggested and added (years and years ago, by the way) GPB FFB output was already the "total torque acting on the bars minus the torque generated by the rider", for the simple reason that this is what makes sense (and what is used in car sims). That has not been changed by DSA.

In my opinion, theoretically this could be the best possible solution. Except we don't have controllers of that grade available, and I'm not sure whether the input lag would be acceptable for the engine.

Isn't this what I just said in my previous post ? ("We have no proper input device with FFB")

I still think that using a direct drive wheel with some massive Nm rating, the resulting experience could be very close to the real deal. I wouldn't want to hit a kerb like that though Hence the suggestion of FFB filtering.

Likely the filtering should not be done by GPB but by your FFB device (as a safety measure, anyway).

• We have no proper input device with FFB: I hate the idea of using a steering wheel + pedals ...if I have to make a compromise I can as well make it all the way and use a joypad (or use stuff with no FFB, like doubledragoncc's system).

Well, you might hate the idea, but have you tried it yet?

Yes, right after DSA came out (and most likely I will try it again in a few months, I'll likely buy a steering wheel just for that, I'm not much into car sims).

But aside the angle/torque thing, I think I agree with you on DSA being interesting, potentially even more interesting than DST.
What is unclear to me is: what would you like to improve in DST/DSA ? There's not a lot that can be done on GPB side. Actually there's nothing at all for DST and little on DSA. Most of the work is on the input device side.

P.S.
I think somebody (can't remember if teeds or h106) was playing around with a large motor to be used as input FFB device. Don't know exactly how things went but they are both still around on the forum ...

[teeds]

It was H http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1997.0

[Become dust]

here you go https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL-Al6rzTlW-jTITpzG1WStYXkajvHbi4k&v=o_Vh_vsRYWs

[Become dust]

im curious here. what is FFB? and DDs setup?

[HornetMaX]

FFB = force feedback. doubledragoncc (dd, or ddcc) is the guy that builds and sells the controller in the video you posted. He's on this forum.
But the device in your video has no FFB.

[Become dust]

FFB = force feedback. doubledragoncc (dd, or ddcc) is the guy that builds and sells the controller in the video you posted. He's on this forum.
But the device in your video has no FFB.

Oh!! I did not know that! Interresting. Well the more you know, as you might can tell im no Sim expert my first sim game would be GT5.... if you can even call it a sim ive never used a wheel before aswel

[passerBy]

However, in the end it's all about the angle.

No. And if you write down the equations of the bike you see that immediately.
Let's say we agree to disagree.

Ok, after giving it some thought, I'd say I agree with you... partially. At a high enough forward rotational velocity, an attempt to turn the front wheel to a side will lead to its tilting to the opposite side (which in turn should make the rear wheel want to turn in the same direction?)
Though, it's more like two steering modes are active at the same time and mixed together in certain proportions depending on the current velocity.

As for the physical model, back at the time where was only torque based DS I had the idea of the sim's engine applying all torques and rotational resistance imitations sans the rider's to the controller, after which the resulting steering angle would be fed back into the engine.

When DSA has been suggested and added (years and years ago, by the way) GPB FFB output was already the "total torque acting on the bars minus the torque generated by the rider", for the simple reason that this is what makes sense (and what is used in car sims). That has not been changed by DSA.

Suggested around 4 years ago, to be precise. I remember the frustration of trying to keep the bars straight at a standstill using only the torque input, so I asked Piboso if it was possible to make an alternative mode for FFB devices where the position of the controller would correspond to the virtual handlebars position. Ok, I don't claim he made this after my request, but at least I was suggesting such a mode, that much I can remember. And as far as I can remember, back then hardly anybody else was interested in DS (I used to call it a "hardcore mode").
I didn't have an FFB wheel at the time, so it was purely theoretic for me, and I quit trying getting along with the torque mode after making sure I was able to at least do a couple of consequential laps at Cadwell Park without dropping the bike. It was extremely difficult at the time, so I didn't feel like continuing improving my riding, but I also couldn't go back to the "autopilot", so I switched to car sims and left the forum, hoping that one of these days GPB will get improved enough for me to continue the direct steering quest. And it did.

You still don't remember me, Max? I'm asking this because of all people here I had the most conversations with you, including those related to direct steering.

As for the FFB coupled with the torque mode, I have a trouble imagining how that should work, but then again, having FFB in the default mode should feel even weirder. I haven't tried either so far once I got the wheel, though. Might give it a try later.

In my opinion, theoretically this could be the best possible solution. Except we don't have controllers of that grade available, and I'm not sure whether the input lag would be acceptable for the engine.

Isn't this what I just said in my previous post ? ("We have no proper input device with FFB")

That's something that can be said about pretty much any sim out there... Still think a direct drive wheel might do wonders coupled with GPB.

I still think that using a direct drive wheel with some massive Nm rating, the resulting experience could be very close to the real deal. I wouldn't want to hit a kerb like that though Hence the suggestion of FFB filtering.

Likely the filtering should not be done by GPB but by your FFB device (as a safety measure, anyway).

Never heard about the devices themselves doing the filtering, but it's a compelling notion. I mostly meant the filtering like the one found in rFactor 2.
Judging by some people having "accidents" with direct drive wheels, maybe your idea is not just a food for thought, but something that should be strictly enforced instead.

Well, you might hate the idea, but have you tried it yet?

Yes, right after DSA came out (and most likely I will try it again in a few months, I'll likely buy a steering wheel just for that, I'm not much into car sims).

Well, even though I bought this wheel for car sims, ever since the recent update for the 11th beta was out, I was using the wheel mostly with GPB anyway.
A word of advice though: consider getting at least a belt-driven wheel. Logitechs full of gears are not very good in terms of feel.

But aside the angle/torque thing, I think I agree with you on DSA being interesting, potentially even more interesting than DST.
What is unclear to me is: what would you like to improve in DST/DSA ? There's not a lot that can be done on GPB side. Actually there's nothing at all for DST and little on DSA. Most of the work is on the input device side.

Well, I certainly need to give the torque mode another go (using my joysticks instead of the wheel). Maybe it's miles more manageable in this beta... However, I'm sure it won't provide the same level of enjoyment. So, I will only be speaking relative to the angle command mode for now.
First of all, there needs to be a way to control the rider's lean. Maybe some artificial vestibular function, maybe just converting the translational headtracking axes into the lean. Then I will need to figure out what else gets in the way of tackling hairpins, especially sloped ones. They are still devilishly hard to get through. If it's the driver's balance that drops the bike, the balance needs to be augmented. If it's the controller getting in the way of self-righting, the virtual fork and the controller need to be made coupled loosely enough.

At the moment direct steering is still very difficult to get accustomed to (but at least not next to impossible, as it was back then). I hope you'll agree this much. But I'm absolutely against simply dropping it in favor of the default steering. If that'd happen, I would simply quit bike sims altogether. Or at least buy myself Ride 2, since in the end the experience wouldn't be that much different, but that game has better content.

P.S.
I think somebody (can't remember if teeds or h106) was playing around with a large motor to be used as input FFB device. Don't know exactly how things went but they are both still around on the forum ...

I have an alternative idea to that and planning to share it in the custom controllers section soon enough.

[passerBy]

@Become dust, have you tried the directsteer=2 mode already? If so, what do you think?

[Become dust]

I still struggle to make it function if i understand correct i should be directly controlling the handlebars correct?

[Become dust]

Nvm! Its functioning! I also learned its really difficult to hold the balance

[Become dust]

Ive tested it out and i can see why you FFB guys like the setup, directsteer actually applies with... direct steer but then i got this crazy idea. Whynot use DST? But with reverse torque, if im not crazy but it feels like DSA but with a more easier balancing bike. I might be crazy but DST with negative maxtorque 1 as negative it feels pretty great!! Again.... might be total nonsense bjt hey! Me like