• Welcome to PiBoSo Official Forum. Please login or sign up.
 
September 28, 2020, 08:40:56 AM

News:

GP Bikes beta18c available! :)


Full motion simulator

Started by PiBoSo, November 19, 2014, 05:11:00 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Gibbon

Quote from: lluisete on November 20, 2014, 02:01:20 PM
http://www.mecanitzats-muntada.com/CKU28/CKU-Maquina-entrenament-pilots-motociclisme.html

This is for me the most advanced plateform (in term of movement) you can find today...but it's not a simulator
Some GP riders tried it (see BT Sport Youtube channel)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Er8ElDPPio

Furious

QuoteI'm sure you are wrong with your directions and I'll show that on the picture.

HornetMaX

Quote from: Furious on November 20, 2014, 12:39:18 PM
As I said. I messed up pitch and roll words at some point.

We are going to pitch the bike forward while breaking and pitch it backawrd while accelerating.

We do roll the bike in the opposite direction of the turn if the biker moves to the center of corner.

And as i sad. We can simulate ACCELERATING. When we pitch the bike 60 degrees backwards one vector is 0.85 G and the one to simulate gravity is 0.5 G

I'm sure you are wrong with your directions and I'll show that on the picture.
OK,now it's clearer what you plan to do, it wheelie when accelerating.
But still ... if the in-game bike does not wheelie, it will feel very weird to have the frame wheeling ... and to have 0.8 of 1g you'd need 53deg: so I have my in-game bike perfectly horizontal and your rig at 53deg ? Makes no sense.

To me you should focus on having your rig's attitude match the virtual bike attitude, that would already provide a lot of info on the bike already and it would be simpler.

Quote from: TheFatController on November 20, 2014, 02:31:24 PM
Surely the biggest problem for a bike motion simulator is the corners? IRL when you lean a bike right over to corner you're being held in the seat / on the bike through the g-force generated by the bike traveling away from its previous trajectory - the same way the water stays in the bucket when swung upside down - centrifugal?

All full motion bike simulators I've seen so far look odd. Looks like you would be literally hanging on to the bike when cornering - feeling gravity's pull vertically, instead of being held in the seat through g-force horizontally.
Exactly, that's what I mean saying that "simulating' forces is hopeless.

Quote from: PiBoSo on November 20, 2014, 02:30:30 PM
Quote from: h106frp on November 20, 2014, 01:57:57 PM
Found another link for multi DOF (2,3,6) platforms that claim to support GPB already.
http://www.motionsystems.eu/software/platform-manager

Ah, perfect, at last!
Thank you.
Looks good indeed. But if you are looking for "just" a 6dof platform, you can probably find plenty of others around, e.g. http://www.ckas.com.au/6dof_systems_36.html, http://www.ckas.com.au/6dof_low_cost_systems_62.html, ...

MaX.

doubledragoncc

November 20, 2014, 04:38:57 PM #33 Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 05:15:06 PM by doubledragoncc
Quote from: Furious on November 19, 2014, 08:42:41 PM
Really guys? Can't you see that all of those "simulators" are useless? What are they simulating? With all that wobling left/right front/back ? Where is the usage of gravity to simulate acceleration? there is force feedback on the handlebars? Where is information about  position on the bike even gathered?  Every single one you have shown are shity work.

Thankyou Furious.....At last someone thinks like me about the motion systems out there. Even using a 6Dof unit is not correct. And how many have a spare bike to stick on one. I have been working on the design of one for years but there are so many physical points that none of the above systems even cover. I am concentrating on a static system for now, but working on a full motion system design all the time. I dont think I have ever seen a motion system built that could in anyway offer the true movements and motions of a real motorbike. If I can help in any way let me know, I do have some good ideas, real ones not toy or wheelie machine bs.

DD
GPBOC Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/c/IASystemsComputerControls; i7 7700 4.8GHz z270 ASUS Maximus Code Mobo 16GB 3866MHz DDR4 RAM ASUS Strix RTX2070 OC 8GB DDR6 Kraken X62 AIO Cooler ROG Thor 850w PSU in ROG Helios Tower Case.
https://paypal.me/IASystems

doubledragoncc

Just watched the show with where they use the "Leanmachine" Im sorry but what crap is that. It flops from side to side and thats about it, oh I think he acually used the throttle because he sure as hell did not use the clutch or the brakes so are the new MotoGP bikes with auto frickin  everything?????????

Sorry but I think the thing is an insult to put a MotoGP champion on!!!
GPBOC Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/c/IASystemsComputerControls; i7 7700 4.8GHz z270 ASUS Maximus Code Mobo 16GB 3866MHz DDR4 RAM ASUS Strix RTX2070 OC 8GB DDR6 Kraken X62 AIO Cooler ROG Thor 850w PSU in ROG Helios Tower Case.
https://paypal.me/IASystems

Hawk

Quote from: doubledragoncc on November 20, 2014, 06:02:28 PM
Just watched the show with where they use the "Leanmachine" Im sorry but what crap is that. It flops from side to side and thats about it, oh I think he acually used the throttle because he sure as hell did not use the clutch or the brakes so are the new MotoGP bikes with auto frickin  everything?????????

Sorry but I think the thing is an insult to put a MotoGP champion on!!!

I agree DD..... My opinion on here is very well known by forum veterans here(We should go back to seat of the pants racing like it used to be in the good old blue ribbon days of the 500cc World Championships). Anyway that's another story.....  ;D

Hawk.

Gibbon

Quote from: doubledragoncc on November 20, 2014, 06:02:28 PM
Just watched the show with where they use the "Leanmachine" Im sorry but what crap is that. It flops from side to side and thats about it, oh I think he acually used the throttle because he sure as hell did not use the clutch or the brakes so are the new MotoGP bikes with auto frickin  everything?????????

Sorry but I think the thing is an insult to put a MotoGP champion on!!!

Actually, it's not a simulator it's just a fitness system for training...
As I understood, it's up to the rider to follow the screen...there is no link between the system and the onboard video.
Throttle is used to help the bike to go in its initial position.

I don't think this is a crap and I must say, from what I know, it's the only existing plateform which allow "real" lean angle...

doubledragoncc

Good defence wkp, sorry but it just seems so wrong to show it being used like that. Isaw the fitness video too and can understand to a point, but who care if it leans if it dont even work and isnt even connected to a sim!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you want a workout try my full sit on static system, it works with any bike game/sim on a PC and it is actually a workout to use.
Not got the motion on it yet but not that far off...........

I also think these, "bolt a real bike to a moving bench Dof systems are total waste of money as you have a real bike there, why not just ride the bloody thing instead of bolting it to a bit of moving metal............come on DOH

DD
GPBOC Live Streams: https://www.youtube.com/c/IASystemsComputerControls; i7 7700 4.8GHz z270 ASUS Maximus Code Mobo 16GB 3866MHz DDR4 RAM ASUS Strix RTX2070 OC 8GB DDR6 Kraken X62 AIO Cooler ROG Thor 850w PSU in ROG Helios Tower Case.
https://paypal.me/IASystems

LOOPATELI

I think that Furious is right in terms of the overall force feedback of the bike. If you watch it in a 3rd person view (outside the simulator) it will look so weird, but while using the simulator it will be nice (obviously the overall force will not be the same as in reality, but yes in terms of its direction). Obviously the key of all of this Oculus Rift, because with it you can (more or less) cheat your brain. there are tons of examples where you can see that we can cheat our brain by the sense of sight.
but now my question is, will it be safe? Lol, you will have to where a helmet using it xD.
and also how are you going to simulate for example some rear slides, or lowside crashes, where will be the limit?

Gibbon

Quote from: doubledragoncc on November 20, 2014, 08:43:26 PM
Good defence wkp, sorry but it just seems so wrong to show it being used like that. Isaw the fitness video too and can understand to a point, but who care if it leans if it dont even work and isnt even connected to a sim!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I totally agree, that's why I'm making my own...same principle but connected to GPB  ;)

Quote from: doubledragoncc on November 20, 2014, 08:43:26 PM
I also think these, "bolt a real bike to a moving bench Dof systems are total waste of money as you have a real bike there, why not just ride the bloody thing instead of bolting it to a bit of moving metal............come on DOH

For road motorbike, you're right...not interesting.
But riding a racing bike is quite expensive and and I think it could be a good alternative, at least for learning tracks and off season. And as GPB is getting better and better (sensitive subject but still my opinion  :D ), if the motion sim works well, why not using it for bike settings purpose...

HornetMaX

Quote from: LOOPATELI on November 20, 2014, 09:39:09 PM
I think that Furious is right in terms of the overall force feedback of the bike. If you watch it in a 3rd person view (outside the simulator) it will look so weird, but while using the simulator it will be nice (obviously the overall force will not be the same as in reality, but yes in terms of its direction). Obviously the key of all of this Oculus Rift, because with it you can (more or less) cheat your brain. there are tons of examples where you can see that we can cheat our brain by the sense of sight.
Except these examples are almost all for cars, and cars basically do not pitch.
If you use the pitch movement to simulate the force, then how do you simulate the real bike pitching movements ?

In Furious approach he's basically trying to give you a sense of the forward/backward acceleration but no sense of bike pitch, while with what I'm saying you'd get the opposite (no sense of forward/backward acceleration but a sense of bike pitch).

Don't know, but having a pitch axes on the rig and not using it for real pitch looks strange. The good thing is that all this is only software, so once the rig is ready you can easily compare the two approaches.

MaX.

BOBR6 84

November 20, 2014, 10:02:03 PM #41 Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 10:10:51 PM by BOBR6 84
I dont think its possible at all... You can get close, for fun! Not a serious training simulator.. Which is why all pro riders just.. well, ride bikes!

Maybe with a strong wind tunnel and some kind of 3 dimensional rolling road to get the giro affect? (talking out my arse here lol) but again that would be on a real bike anyway..

Its all light years away.. I agree with the brain trickery approach!

Even car sims (as good as some are) cant simulate G-force! You have to be moving! Surely???

Even on my crappy excuse of a race bike.. Braking hard at the end of a straight feels like my eyes are about to pop out! So god knows what it must be like on a grand prix bike!!  :o
Good luck simulating that...

HornetMaX

Quote from: BOBR6 84 on November 20, 2014, 10:02:03 PM
Even car sims (as good as some are) cant simulate G-force! You have to be moving! Surely???
Yep, you just can't create the forces (forget the wind tunnel and the gyro effect).

It is however true that if the screen is fixed to the moving platform (or if you have an occulus rift), then you can trick (a bit) the brain into believing you're actually accelerating/braking.

MaX.

Furious

Quote from: HornetMaX on November 20, 2014, 09:51:07 PM
Quote from: LOOPATELI on November 20, 2014, 09:39:09 PM
I think that Furious is right in terms of the overall force feedback of the bike. If you watch it in a 3rd person view (outside the simulator) it will look so weird, but while using the simulator it will be nice (obviously the overall force will not be the same as in reality, but yes in terms of its direction). Obviously the key of all of this Oculus Rift, because with it you can (more or less) cheat your brain. there are tons of examples where you can see that we can cheat our brain by the sense of sight.
If you use the pitch movement to simulate the force, then how do you simulate the real bike pitching movements ?

In Furious approach he's basically trying to give you a sense of the forward/backward acceleration but no sense of bike pitch, while with what I'm saying you'd get the opposite (no sense of forward/backward acceleration but a sense of bike pitch).


MaX.

Max, please tell me. What is the point of setting the actual pitch angle of the moving machine on a steady machine ? The feeling comes from our senses. We need to use the same kind of forces as in real life. That is most important. Way more than the actual value of it. As there was an experiment with oculus rift and roler caster. Someone made a 3d model of the RC track with bends of the same lenght but with much bigger radius. Next, he driven on that RC with no motion sickness or whatsoever. That is an example that direction of the force is what counts.

If you will see on oculus rift that you are horizontal, you will believe it, If you will see you are wheeling you will believe it as well. We cheat the brain, cause both situations gives you same feeling in terms of force directions, so your eyes decide what situation is now occuring.

About the roll movement.
The thing is that you cant really feel that the bike is changing its roll value, cause force vector is changing it's direction along with the bike lean.

So I'll keep Fw vector along with Gravity vector.

LOOPATELI

As Max said, the things we are now talking about are software stuff, which can be "easily" compared using both ideas. The hardware would be the same for both ideas and Furious model looks nice for that. Another good idea to cheat the brain would be when you are "leaning" in the sim you can feel the leaning limit by using somehow a surface where you can put your knee down as a kind of feeling to know where the road is. I dont know if I explain it ok. Even you can put your elbow down hahaha(just kidding)