Brexit or not ?

[HornetMaX]

1980's :
https://www.youtube.com/v/EkpS-yBj7gY

@grT: all the reports and declarations I've read say that ignoring the referendum result is not an option. So I don't know where Dr. Paul Craig Roberts gets his info, I suspect it's the same place he gets his space cookies from ...

[girlracerTracey]

Question is Max, some might say, where do you get your "space cookies" from? 

[Napalm Nick]

It's like another news outlet round here now. Regurgitating press releases and predicting gloom and doom. I hoped the discussion might move to solutions the EU should be taking to make it work, but it seems we are still in the finger pointing and impending doom mongering stage for quite a while yet, especially as it is so much 'fun' for so many people. Sorry if that comes off as grumpy but try living here surrounded by the soothsayers and hind-sighters, then have to read it all again on my second favourite forum! So its best I step out for a bit now or it might make me.....

<grumpy emoji>

[girlracerTracey]

It's like another news outlet round here now. Regurgitating press releases and predicting gloom and doom. I hoped the discussion might move to solutions the EU should be taking to make it work, but it seems we are still in the finger pointing and impending doom mongering stage for quite a while yet, especially as it is so much 'fun' for so many people. Sorry if that comes off as grumpy but try living here surrounded by the soothsayers and hind-sighters, then have to read it all again on my second favourite forum! So its best I step out for a bit now or it might make me.....

<grumpy emoji>

Joking apart Nick, I suppose that's all we can really do at the moment. Regurgitate press releases and commentary from the mainstream media or cite independent voices that may be out there.

It's quite an unprecedented situation that Europe and greater humanity faces over this "hiccup" caused by a majority vote in the U.K. to exit the European Union.

My own very take on this is that if Britain is allowed to stand alone in Europe then the true significance of this situation, the real difference that it might make, will be eroded to the point, both politically and economically, that it won't constitute that much difference to the chessboard anyway..  Just my personal opinion of course.

I suppose what I'm saying is that one's view of the world, notwithstanding the ingestion of "space cookies" by either side in this debate, is formed by one's personal perspective on the greater matters of mankind.  I suppose we all have our own perspective on life and the universe based upon the information and commentary we choose to give credence to. The MSM has its take and independent voices and minds have theirs..

https://www.youtube.com/v/jVzccbfmcus

grT

[HornetMaX]

I hoped the discussion might move to solutions the EU should be taking to make it work, but it seems we are still in the finger pointing and impending doom mongering stage for quite a while yet, especially as it is so much 'fun' for so many people.

To discuss solutions the first thing needed is for the UK to be officially out. So let's get that done ASAP, it's the only way forward.

If one is sure enough about his decision, doom predictions should not affect him at all. He should actually be quite happy, because if everything goes as he so firmly thinks, in a few months/years he will be able to backfire in style.

[Hawk]

Sturgeon is using pure political brain washing of the Scottish people to get what she really wants. But it's good that some of us can see right through her tactics and aspirations, and for that reason, if it was up to me, I wouldn't even consider giving Scotland another indie ref for the foreseeable future, at least until the UK got settled into it's life outside the EU. 

So let me recap: Sturgeon brainwash people while Farage/Johnson expose facts. Alyn Smith's speech in the EU parliament is laughable while and Farage's speech in the EU parliament is enjoyable.
It seems to me your point of view is so far from the ones of Scottish people that you should have no problem at all in letting them go. What's the problem then ? Why you don't like the idea of Scotland breaking apart for the UK ?

The EU has already made very clear that the EU deals with states: SCO at the moment is not a state. End of the discussion. Anybody knows this. And the way out of that.

I have no problem at all with the Scots having their independence(though any Scot who honestly believes Scotland could survive on it's own income and resources is not living on this planet). But I love to encourage misguided people who don't listen to sense to do what they want to do so that they learn their lesson the hard way which is always the best way for those who always think they know best. 

But I was just saying that Sturgeon isn't being honest about wanting Scotland to stay in the EU, she's only saying and acting on that to gain extra support for a possible Scottish indie referendum. You say end of discussion yet she already knew from the start she couldn't do anything for Scotland to stay in the EU so why did she pursue it in the first place? Just proves she is playing with the minds of Scottish people.
And yes all politicians do the same thing(I never said anything different), but I've a feeling the Scots will fall for it this time round, especially if the UK Gov is silly enough to grant their wishes for a ref anytime soon.....  So I say let the Scots go and do their thing and then come crawling back to the UK on their hands and knees begging to be let back into the UK community..... Boy I'd make them grovel big time! Hehe! 

Hawk.

[HornetMaX]

@grT: all the reports and declarations I've read say that ignoring the referendum result is not an option. So I don't know where Dr. Paul Craig Roberts gets his info, I suspect it's the same place he gets his space cookies from ...

Question is Max, some might say, where do you get your "space cookies" from? 

The problem when trying to discuss with people like you (or Dr. Whatever) is always the same: you feel obliged to decorate a few ideas that may have some interest with a load of world-scale conspiracy (and a few random videos from youtube).

I have no problem at all with the Scots having their independence(though any Scot who honestly believes Scotland could survive on it's own income and resources is not living on this planet).

That's very funny because the scots are very convinced that can do that. From what I've seen there, I'd say they are right too.

But I was just saying that Sturgeon isn't being honest about wanting Scotland to stay in the EU, she's only saying and acting on that to gain extra support for a possible Scottish indie referendum.

What's the problem ? it's not as if they started talking about independence just now ... The brexit is just another reason (a quite big one) to ask for an ukxit (or whatever they are going to call that).

So I say let the Scots go and do their thing and then come crawling back to the UK on their hands and knees begging to be let back into the UK community..... Boy I'd make them grovel big time! Hehe! 

Says the ones complaining about doom mongering, retaliation, finger pointing etc.

Enjoy your independence, now that you have it.
If in the process you manage to let the Scots get their own one (and N.Ireland too, if that's what they want), they'd be grateful.

[Hawk]

Well Max lets see if the Scots could handle their own independence first, but to be honest it isn't going to happen in my opinion. The Scots are not that stupid when it comes to the crunch.

As far as the UK having our independence from the EU.... We haven't got it yet and it will be a good few years before we do, unfortunately.

The Brexit result is not a good reason to ask for a Scots independence ref just because the UK voted to exit the EU. Scotland is part of the UK, so why are you saying it's a good reason for an indie vote? Don't you believe in democracy?
Scotland has already had an indie vote and voted against it. Just because the majority of Scots voted to remain in the EU doesn't give them a good reason to then try and get another indie vote anymore than it gives London the right to an indie vote, both regions of the UK voted to remain... So I ask you - What's the problem? Isn't the democratic system good enough for the Scots? How arrogant is that I ask? 

I've no doubt as some stage in the future Scotland will get another chance to vote for their independence but it would be crazy to let them have it now unless we really did want to get rid of the Scots from the UK simply because the vote would probably be made from an emotional decision and not a sensible one and that would just cause even more problems in the future that the UK would probably have to foot the bill for when the Scots came crawling back to us. 

Hawk.

[h106frp]

When Scotland voted last time was it proposed that they become insignificant members of europe instead? (actually i do not even remember a plan proposed post UK) I think that is the more important question that they would be asked this time and i am not sure you would get the same vote. Spain has unsurprisingly said it will veto anyway - they could end up genuinely independent which should make them even happier.

As for ireland - glad to see the back of the problem. It should have been left to the UN to sort that mess out in the first place and how long do you think before the troubles flare up again and would the EU step in to keep the peace this time?

[girlracerTracey]

@grT: all the reports and declarations I've read say that ignoring the referendum result is not an option. So I don't know where Dr. Paul Craig Roberts gets his info, I suspect it's the same place he gets his space cookies from ...

Question is Max, some might say, where do you get your "space cookies" from? 

The problem when trying to discuss with people like you (or Dr. Whatever) is always the same: you feel obliged to decorate a few ideas that may have some interest with a load of world-scale conspiracy (and a few random videos from youtube).

Oh Max..where does one begin? lol.

Look, the truth is that you and people like you are always the same. You are predictable in that you form your whole perspective on the geopolitics of this world from what you are spoon fed on a daily basis by the mainstream media. The irony of this is that you formulate your thinking based upon a "presstitute" media that is owned by the same interests that own the international banking system including such spin-offs as the the Federal Reserve, the IMF and the European Central Bank. To name but a few.. The same private banking interests that control and influence governments. Hence your outlook on the world might seem a little naive. At least to some of us..

As for your attempted denigration of Dr Roberts, someone who has held high office in U.S. politics, U.S. journalism and U.S. academia, I'm afraid such denigration falls flat on its nose even before it's reached the runway.. I suppose you might seek to rubbish the reputation of highly respected and world renowned journalists of the likes of John Pilger also? Who knows? You might. But again I would say to you that shooting the messenger in this way merely serves to loosen the ground beneath your own feet.

So all I would say to you is rather than engaging in weak and predictable ad hominem attacks against such high profile individuals perhaps you might strive to present a more meaningful and coherent response to counter what they are claiming..?

People agree to differ over subjects like this all the time but that should mean that the standard of the conversation should decline.

Again just my honest opinion and I do not mean to seem rude in voicing it. I really don't.

grT 

[HornetMaX]

When Scotland voted last time was it proposed that they become insignificant members of europe instead? (actually i do not even remember a plan proposed post UK)

Membership of the EU was one of the argument of the "leave the UK" camp in the last scottish referendum.
At the time however, it was not a powerful argument because most were convinced that the UK will not leave the EU. Gotta admit the situation is a bit different now.

I think that is the more important question that they would be asked this time and i am not sure you would get the same vote. Spain has unsurprisingly said it will veto anyway -

Wrong. Spain has vetoed any discussion with Scotland right now, because Scotland is not an independent state. So there cannot even be a discussion between the EU and Scotland, just as there can be no discussion between the EU and the Catalans. If Scotland becomes independent, it's another story.

As for ireland - glad to see the back of the problem. It should have been left to the UN to sort that mess out in the first place and how long do you think before the troubles flare up again and would the EU step in to keep the peace this time?

Don't know, but again, if they want to go and rejoin Ireland what do you want to do ? Keep them in the UK with the force ? It sounds like more trouble to me. They would just be a burden for you (and you for them).

Rule #1 of team playing: the ones that do not want to be in the team, should not be in the team.

As far as the UK having our independence from the EU.... We haven't got it yet and it will be a good few years before we do, unfortunately.

Not sure you've heard the latest news about that ... some sort of deadline for art.50 has been put in place on 16 Sept 2016.
Once art50 is kicked in, there's a 2 years max delay to complete the process.

I've no doubt as some stage in the future Scotland will get another chance to vote for their independence but it would be crazy to let them have it now unless we really did want to get rid of the Scots from the UK simply because the vote would probably be made from an emotional decision and not a sensible one and that would just cause even more problems in the future that the UK would probably have to foot the bill for when the Scots came crawling back to us. 

I see, you plan to negate them a referendum anytime soon for their own good. Because you know better then them, I guess.

You are predictable in that you form your whole perspective on the geopolitics of this world from what you are spoon fed on a daily basis by the mainstream media. The irony of this is that you formulate your thinking based upon a "presstitute" media that is owned by the same interests that own the international banking system including such spin-offs as the the Federal Reserve, the IMF and the European Central Bank. To name but a few.. The same private banking interests that control and influence governments. Hence your outlook on the world might seem a little naive. At least to some of us..

noise ... geopolitics ... noise ... spoon fed ... noise ... mainstream media ... noise ... presstitute ...

I can't judge Mr. Roberts, I've only said that when discussing if an apple is red or green there's no need to bring arguments involving world domination, banks conspiracy or the tower of babel.
Because if you do so, people will stop listening to you. Even if a little part of what you're saying may have sense.

[girlracerTracey]

noise ... geopolitics ... noise ... spoon fed ... noise ... mainstream media ... noise ... presstitute ...

I can't judge Mr. Roberts, I've only said that when discussing if an apple is red or green there's no need to bring arguments involving world domination, banks conspiracy or the tower of babel.
Because if you do so, people will stop listening to you. Even if a little part of what you're saying may have sense.

I'll be honest with you Max..you make a valid point. Insofar as if one expands upon a possible conspiracy to the man in the street too much then indeed in his eyes it does become unbelievable. That's very true. If you are engaged in an effort to wake up the masses, as Dr Roberts and others I think clearly are, then it is advisable perhaps to only reveal so much to them. Otherwise rather than waking up (if indeed there is any waking up to be done..) you will engender the opposite effect. So yes in that respect I understand what you are saying and I do agree with you. I do, however, consider that Dr Roberts is genuine and well meaning in trying to spread the message that he attempts to spread..

As regards the Tower of Babel..well I'm sure you and I do not want to delve into that one any further here and now. What I would say, however, is that sane and rational individuals have made the same observation..even Reuters carried a piece on this a while back..upturned stars and all. So I'm in some quite good company on that one including the P.R. department of the EU themselves.

Conspiracies of an arguably sinister nature do exist. Sadly. One only has to research such matters as the Gulf of Tonkin incident or Operation Northwoods to appreciate and realise that this is so.

So look, I respect your viewpoint Max. As I respect the viewpoint of others on this thread and elsewhere in the wider world but there will always be those who see life through different eyes..

Love and peace.

grT  

[HornetMaX]

As regards the Tower of Babel..well I'm sure you and I do not want to delve into that one any further here and now. What I would say, however, is that sane and rational individuals have made the same observation..even Reuters carried a piece on this a while back..upturned stars and all. So I'm in some quite good company on that one including the P.R. department of the EU themselves.

Observing vague similarities between 2 buildings (one of which has been seen only in ancient paintings) is one thing.
Implying there's a master plan and justifying that by the building similarities is another.

[girlracerTracey]

Observing vague similarities between 2 buildings (one of which has been seen only in ancient paintings) is one thing.
Implying there's a master plan and justifying that by the building similarities is another.

I was presuming this was a specific subject that held no interest for you Max..bearing this in mind I do not feel any such further discussion on this would prove fruitful.

Having said that it is perhaps reasonable to conjecture that there might be more than just a vague similarity between the EU Building and Bruegel's Tower of Babel. Based upon the EU Official Tower of Babel Poster Printed 1992. Others, yourself included, might reasonably suggest this is nothing more than mere coincidence. Certainly there does seem to be some undeniable symbolism involved with the matter of the poster.   



grT

[Vini]

If you were some how able to take the predatory banking cabal out of the equation (completely) and do away with the private central banking system (completely) and banish the Rothschild banking empire and its associates to the dark side of the moon and re-programme mankind to be naturally philanthropic in their dealings with their fellow man (or woman) then I might begin to agree with you Vin.

how exactly does isolation solve those problems, though? do you think unity caused them?