Brexit or not ?

[girlracerTracey]

If you were some how able to take the predatory banking cabal out of the equation (completely) and do away with the private central banking system (completely) and banish the Rothschild banking empire and its associates to the dark side of the moon and re-programme mankind to be naturally philanthropic in their dealings with their fellow man (or woman) then I might begin to agree with you Vin.

how exactly does isolation solve those problems, though? do you think unity caused them?

Well look, at the risk of being categorised as someone who would be better cared for in an asylum, if you follow the thinking of someone like Dr Paul Craig Roberts through to its conclusion then by extricating yourself, as a an independent sovereign state, from the union it serves to position your nation as a check and a balance to what is going on in Europe and the greater world. Envision, perhaps, a declaration of war by Washington against Iran. God forbid. If you rest independent then one's independent parliament might have the ability to exercise some influence and independence against such a decision to go to war. If your nation was part of an EU Superstate perhaps your nation's people and parliament (if such a thing existed) might not be able to bring the same independent influence to bear. Same goes for any action against Russia I suppose. Take the example of the U.K.'s parliament's decision in 2013 not to accede to Washington's request to participate in an aerial bombing campaign against the sovereign state of Syria. The U.K. parliament voted overwhelmingly against such action and the planned bombing campaign did not as a consequence take place.

I suppose what I am espousing here is the ability to indulge in independent thought and decisions as an independent sovereign nation. You might, just might, be able to avert an unnecessary and dangerous war that might have the potential to escalate into a much wider and more dangerous conflict.   

All I can suggest vin is that perhaps you give Dr Robert's video (radio interview) a listen (I'm not quite sure how easily you might follow the spoken conversation though as English is your second language). He expands upon this theme to quite an extent. As does John Pilger in his recent press interviews.

However, I suppose war is only one aspect of this. There are other potential advantages in the ability to have an independent sovereign voice heard on the world stage.

grT 

[doubledragoncc]

@So your hiding in here now Tracey lol

Check your YouTube btw, it might interest you.

DD

[Vini]

Ok, you explained why being a sovereign nation has advantages but I still don't see how it solves fundamental problems of capitalism (like the ones I originally quoted from your post).

Might watch the video if it's not too long.

[Toomes1]

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[BOBR6 84]

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[Toomes1]

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[HornetMaX]

Observing vague similarities between 2 buildings (one of which has been seen only in ancient paintings) is one thing.
Implying there's a master plan and justifying that by the building similarities is another.

I was presuming this was a specific subject that held no interest for you Max..bearing this in mind I do not feel any such further discussion on this would prove fruitful.

Having said that it is perhaps reasonable to conjecture that there might be more than just a vague similarity between the EU Building and Bruegel's Tower of Babel. Based upon the EU Official Tower of Babel Poster Printed 1992. Others, yourself included, might reasonably suggest this is nothing more than mere coincidence. Certainly there does seem to be some undeniable symbolism involved with the matter of the poster.   

It's not a coincidence, it was made on purpose. Maybe to stress the fact that the EU wants itself to be multi-language and multi-cultural (concepts hard to swallow for some, I know).
No wait, I've just read the text in the yellow square on the lower right corner of the image ...

BTW, I can also see people with square heads in the image. I'm sure some will have a perfectly conspiratorial explanation for that too. Not that I want to hear it though ...

[girlracerTracey]

It's not a coincidence, it was made on purpose. Maybe to stress the fact that the EU wants itself to be multi-language and multi-cultural (concepts hard to swallow for some, I know).
No wait, I've just read the text in the yellow square on the lower right corner of the image ...

BTW, I can also see people with square heads in the image. I'm sure some will have a perfectly conspiratorial explanation for that too. Not that I want to hear it though ...

I'm not saying you are wrong Max. Only comment I would venture is that an upside down star is of course a symbol associated with ancient Babylon. Which just as an observation does seem a little odd. Also it is notable that the baby infant cradled by the woman in the poster is the only human character in the poster depicted as having a normal "roundish" human head. Following complaints from members of the public and religious organisations this poster was promptly removed from circulation. Which again does strike one as being just a little odd.     

grT

[girlracerTracey]

Ok, you explained why being a sovereign nation has advantages but I still don't see how it solves fundamental problems of capitalism (like the ones I originally quoted from your post).

Might watch the video if it's not too long.

I no longer perceive the Western financial system as being capitalism vin. Not in the true sense of what capitalism is understood to mean. Bank bail-outs on a far reaching and mammoth scale do not fit with the definition. Nor do "bail-ins" for that matter. I think the present system is more akin to what I would describe as rampant "corporatism" and to many intents and purposes is arguably a kleptocracy in how it functions and operates. If 1% (some would say 62 families) own over 50% of the world's financial wealth then something has gone slightly askew with the concept of capitalism I think many would argue. The corporate interests that actively lobby at the EU are no different from the corporate interests that lobby elsewhere in the Western world and in particular in Washington.

So what I am suggesting is if you're out at least as a nation you might have more of a chance, to a small degree at least, of trying something a little different. Maybe you might have more of an opportunity to change and alter the financial system that operates in your country to the benefit of the majority. Take Iceland for want of a better example..

grT

[Hawk]

As far as the UK having our independence from the EU.... We haven't got it yet and it will be a good few years before we do, unfortunately.

Not sure you've heard the latest news about that ... some sort of deadline for art.50 has been put in place on 16 Sept 2016.
Once art50 is kicked in, there's a 2 years max delay to complete the process.

Last I heard about that was that it was just wishful thinking on the EU commission side so it is not an actual fact as yet?
But the fact still remains that as I've already stated: We are not yet independent from the EU(as you stated we are) and are not likely to be for a good few years yet.

I've no doubt as some stage in the future Scotland will get another chance to vote for their independence but it would be crazy to let them have it now unless we really did want to get rid of the Scots from the UK simply because the vote would probably be made from an emotional decision and not a sensible one and that would just cause even more problems in the future that the UK would probably have to foot the bill for when the Scots came crawling back to us. 

I see, you plan to negate them a referendum anytime soon for their own good. Because you know better then them, I guess.

Hey... It's not me deciding these things Max. I'm just playing devils advocate and also being a little flippant in between with a dash of some sincerity thrown in now and again for good measures. Lol 

But you didn't answer my question: Do you support the democratic system? If you do then your a better man than the Scottish MP's that seem to be trying to negate the democratic process via the back door.
You've got to remember that this isn't proportional representation we're talking about here, so no matter what the remain or leave camp say in regions they found themselves at odds with the majority of voters, the majority have the final result and should suck it up and honour that result with some dignity instead of acting like pathetic children; and I say this for the whole of the UK and not just for the Scots because the remain voters should be ashamed of themselves with the way they are acting. 

Hawk.

[Hawk]

As far as the UK having our independence from the EU.... We haven't got it yet and it will be a good few years before we do, unfortunately.

Not sure you've heard the latest news about that ... some sort of deadline for art.50 has been put in place on 16 Sept 2016.
Once art50 is kicked in, there's a 2 years max delay to complete the process.

Last I heard about that was that it was just wishful thinking on the EU commission side so it is not an actual fact as yet?
But the fact still remains that as I've already stated: We are not yet independent from the EU(as you stated we are) and are not likely to be for a good few years yet.

I've no doubt as some stage in the future Scotland will get another chance to vote for their independence but it would be crazy to let them have it now unless we really did want to get rid of the Scots from the UK simply because the vote would probably be made from an emotional decision and not a sensible one and that would just cause even more problems in the future that the UK would probably have to foot the bill for when the Scots came crawling back to us. 

I see, you plan to negate them a referendum anytime soon for their own good. Because you know better then them, I guess.

Hey... It's not me deciding these things Max. I'm just playing devils advocate and also being a little flippant in between with a dash of some sincerity thrown in now and again for good measures. Lol 

But you didn't answer my question: Do you support the democratic system? If you do then your a better man than the Scottish MP's that seem to be trying to negate the democratic process via the back door.
You've got to remember that this isn't proportional representation we're talking about here, so no matter what the remain or leave camp say in regions they found themselves at odds with the majority of voters, the majority have the final result and the losers should suck it up and honour that result with some dignity instead of acting like pathetic children; and I say this for the whole of the UK and not just for the Scots because the remain voters should be ashamed of themselves with the way they are acting. 

Hawk.

[HornetMaX]

Last I heard about that was that it was just wishful thinking on the EU commission side so it is not an actual fact as yet?
But the fact still remains that as I've already stated: We are not yet independent from the EU(as you stated we are) and are not likely to be for a good few years yet.

I think the 2 yrs limit is written down in the art 50 rules. It's 2 years starting form when you invoke the art 50. Which, as said above, is likely to come fairly soon, which by the way I think is good for the UK too: the sooner you clarify the situation, the more you avoid wild speculations.

But notice that the 2 years are to complete the process: as soon as you invoke art 50, you're already partially out (e.g. you can't participate in any EU decision).
2 years are the technical time needed to straighten out all the details, nothing more.

I see, you plan to negate them a referendum anytime soon for their own good. Because you know better then them, I guess.

Hey... It's not me deciding these things Max. I'm just playing devils advocate and also being a little flippant in between with a dash of some sincerity thrown in now and again for good measures. Lol 

It wasn't a "you" in the sense "you Hawk" of course. But the point stands: many in the UK are against a new scottish referendum because they fear its outcome, especially right now.

But you didn't answer my question: Do you support the democratic system? If you do then your a better man than the Scottish MP's that seem to be trying to negate the democratic process via the back door.
You've got to remember that this isn't proportional representation we're talking about here, so no matter what the remain or leave camp say in regions they found themselves at odds with the majority of voters, the majority have the final result and should suck it up and honour that result with some dignity instead of acting like pathetic children; and I say this for the whole of the UK and not just for the Scots because the remain voters should be ashamed of themselves with the way they are acting. 

That's the very problem for Scotland: they have quite a different view on many aspects compared to the rest of the UK, but as they are just a few millions, their vote is almost always totally irrelevant.
From your point of view, they just have to accept every decision that the UK takes on their behalf.

As Stout pointed out, your claims versus the EU are fairly similar to the claims of Scotland versus the UK. You want to be free from the EU (which is totally your right, no doubt), they want to be free from the UK.

I do support any democratic system: that's why I'm utterly against a revote for the brexit. The UK has spoken, the result is there.
But at the same time, Scotland will never be able to do what they want until the day they separate from the UK.

Now you answer me:

1. A few messages ago you said you have nothing against Scotland leaving the UK. You even said above that Scotland won't be able to survive alone, somehow implying that he UK is paying money to Scotland to keep it afloat. But now you say "but no referendum right now, or the leave-UK will win". But what would be the problem for the UK if Scotland leaves ? You think Scotland is a burden for the UK, so you should be happy if they leave, no ? Just like me being happy for the UK leaving the EU.

2. How does it come that the brexit referendum is the biggest example of democratic process in the history of humanity but a Scottish referendum is totally un-democratic ?! I'm a bit lost.

[Hawk]

Last I heard about that was that it was just wishful thinking on the EU commission side so it is not an actual fact as yet?
But the fact still remains that as I've already stated: We are not yet independent from the EU(as you stated we are) and are not likely to be for a good few years yet.

I think the 2 yrs limit is written down in the art 50 rules. It's 2 years starting form when you invoke the art 50. Which, as said above, is likely to come fairly soon, which by the way I think is good for the UK too: the sooner you clarify the situation, the more you avoid wild speculations.

But notice that the 2 years are to complete the process: as soon as you invoke art 50, you're already partially out (e.g. you can't participate in any EU decision).
2 years are the technical time needed to straighten out all the details, nothing more.

As far as I understand article 50, the UK will only officially exit the EU after the period stated in the article(up to 2 years, longer if member states agree). Until that period is complete then the UK will remain a member of the EU with all it's rights, privileges and costs.
But your right in that the quicker the better... So make no mistake, I personally don't want the UK in the EU any longer than is absolutely required. 

I see, you plan to negate them a referendum anytime soon for their own good. Because you know better then them, I guess.

Hey... It's not me deciding these things Max. I'm just playing devils advocate and also being a little flippant in between with a dash of some sincerity thrown in now and again for good measures. Lol 

It wasn't a "you" in the sense "you Hawk" of course. But the point stands: many in the UK are against a new Scottish referendum because they fear its outcome, especially right now.

That was just me having a little fun with you..... I did actually realise that you were not referring to me personally.   

But you didn't answer my question: Do you support the democratic system? If you do then your a better man than the Scottish MP's that seem to be trying to negate the democratic process via the back door.
You've got to remember that this isn't proportional representation we're talking about here, so no matter what the remain or leave camp say in regions they found themselves at odds with the majority of voters, the majority have the final result and should suck it up and honour that result with some dignity instead of acting like pathetic children; and I say this for the whole of the UK and not just for the Scots because the remain voters should be ashamed of themselves with the way they are acting. 

That's the very problem for Scotland: they have quite a different view on many aspects compared to the rest of the UK, but as they are just a few millions, their vote is almost always totally irrelevant.
From your point of view, they just have to accept every decision that the UK takes on their behalf.

As Stout pointed out, your claims versus the EU are fairly similar to the claims of Scotland versus the UK. You want to be free from the EU (which is totally your right, no doubt), they want to be free from the UK.

I do support any democratic system: that's why I'm utterly against a revote for the brexit. The UK has spoken, the result is there.
But at the same time, Scotland will never be able to do what they want until the day they separate from the UK.

Didn't the Scots vote to remain in the UK when we had a Scottish referendum recently? Isn't that the Scots voting to do what they wanted?
So why do you think us Brits are against the Scots or that the democratic system is unfair for Scotland? It's no more unfair than Londoners squealing like they are doing right now about having to leave of the EU against their wishes because the majority of the country voted to remain, surely.
So according to your thinking Londoners should also have a right to an indie vote too so that they can then join the EU. Lol 
Okay, a little flippant, but you get my drift, right? 

Of course now is not the time to have a referendum for Scotland to leave the UK. Do you think it would be a good idea? This referendum should be given to the Scots when everything has calmed down and we've left the EU and given the UK a chance to see where she's heading. Anything earlier would be a decision made with pure emotion and that is never a good thing to make decisions with.
Of course Nicola Sturgeon will be pushing harder now than she ever has done before and trying to also whip-up Scottish Nationalism for her cause because she knows full well that this is likely to be the best chance that she'll get the majority support from the Scottish people to leave the UK(Stupid Bitch!).
But honestly now is not the time for that referendum, and I'm sure if you thought about it sensibly then you'd agree? 

Now you answer me:

1. A few messages ago you said you have nothing against Scotland leaving the UK. You even said above that Scotland won't be able to survive alone, somehow implying that he UK is paying money to Scotland to keep it afloat. But now you say "but no referendum right now, or the leave-UK will win". But what would be the problem for the UK if Scotland leaves ? You think Scotland is a burden for the UK, so you should be happy if they leave, no ? Just like me being happy for the UK leaving the EU.

2. How does it come that the brexit referendum is the biggest example of democratic process in the history of humanity but a Scottish referendum is totally un-democratic ?! I'm a bit lost.

1. To be honest I personally think it would be a shame if Scotland decided to leave the UK.... believe it or not I actually like the Scots, and I think the majority of the UK does too. And so far as I'm concerned the Scots are certainly no burden to the UK whatsoever and just add to the UK's world famed cultural diversity from both sides of the border. But I do still think that if Scotland decided to leave the UK then within a decade the majority of Scottish people would want to return to the UK.

2. I'm not saying a Scottish indie referendum would be undemocratic..... In fact the Scots have already had a Scottish independence referendum recently and voted to remain.... How many more referendums do they want?
Maybe the Scots would've been better to listen to the UK government at the time instead of supporting the SNP in wanting that vote? At least then they'd be more likely to get one now don't you think?

But just because the majority of Scots voted to remain in the EU against the majority result doesn't then automatically give the Scots the right to another Indie Referendum just so that they can suit themselves when a democratic result goes against them.
I'm sure they will get their chance again at some stage in the future, but as I've already said, now would not be a sensible time to hold a Scottish Indie Ref vote, not because I know better, but because of the reasons I've already stated in a paragraph above in this post. It's about being rational and not making emotional decisions Scotland would probably come to regret later.

What Nicola Sturgeon isn't telling the Scottish people is that even if they did get a ref indie vote right now and voted to come out the UK, then Scotland would still not be able to join the EU for many years afterwards, and even then only if they could meet certain criteria's with their new independent economy and agree to adopt the Euro financial system(the Scots wanted to keep the pound as their currency if I remember rightly last time out)... I mean look how long Turkey have wanted to join the EU and yet they are still saying that it will be at least 2030 before they even get a sniff at it, and Turkey is a lot richer country than Scotland would ever be.
There's a lot of things the SNP haven't told the Scottish people about what it would actually mean to go independent.... I honestly believe they wouldn't be able to afford it without another countries financial support?

Hawk.

[HornetMaX]

As far as I understand article 50, the UK will only officially exit the EU after the period stated in the article(up to 2 years, longer if member states agree). Until that period is complete then the UK will remain a member of the EU with all it's rights, privileges and costs.

Then you understand it wrong I fear.

"The form of any withdrawal agreement would depend on the negotiations and there is therefore no guarantee the UK would find the terms acceptable. The EU Treaties would cease to apply to the UK on the entry into force of a withdrawal agreement or, if no new agreement is concluded, after two years, unless there is unanimous agreement to extend the negotiating period. During the two-year negotiation period, EU laws would still apply to the UK. The UK would continue to participate in other EU business as normal, but it would not participate in internal EU discussions or decisions on its own withdrawal."

So it could take less than 2 years but no more, and you lose your right to participate in any EU decision as soon as art 50 is invoked. Details here: http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/the-mechanics-of-leaving-the-eu-explaining-article-50/

So according to your thinking Londoners should also have a right to an indie vote too so that they can then join the EU. Lol 
Okay, a little flippant, but you get my drift, right? 

I do get it and in your shoes I'd start pondering if this could really happen (not that I hope for it of course).
We all know that UK decisions are taken in London considering only London's interests, so ...

Of course now is not the time to have a referendum for Scotland to leave the UK. Do you think it would be a good idea?

Yes. Because the result would be leave, which I think is good for Scotland, even more after the recent facts.
Right now doesn't mean tomorrow. It cannot happen before a year or more, so the decision won't be emotional at all.

2. I'm not saying a Scottish indie referendum would be undemocratic..... In fact the Scots have already had a Scottish independence referendum recently and voted to remain.... How many more referendums do they want?

The recent events are a big game-changer, that's why I think another referendum is legitimate. If brexit hadn't won, I would not be in favor of another Scottish referendum that soon of course.

But just because the majority of Scots voted to remain in the EU against the majority result doesn't then automatically give the Scots the right to another Indie Referendum just so that they can suit themselves when a democratic result goes against them.

Scotland will never ever have something they like voted, because they can't have the majority. This is they very reason why they want to split.
If SCO wants a law to prevent drinking between 9pm and 2am and LON is against, then they are screwed.
If they want a law to prevent 2 strokes and LON is against, they are screwed.
If they want a law to protect the original fish and chips and LON is against, they are screwed.

Now you can say this is democratic, but only because you oblige them to be part of the UK.

I'm sure they will get their chance again at some stage in the future, but as I've already said, now would not be a sensible time to hold a Scottish Indie Ref vote, not because I know better, but because of the reasons I've already stated in a paragraph above in this post. It's about being rational and not making emotional decisions Scotland would probably come to regret later.

The referendum could not take place before 1 year or more, emotion will be over. What's the other argument ?

What Nicola Sturgeon isn't telling the Scottish people is that even if they did get a ref indie vote right now and voted to come out the UK, then Scotland would still not be able to join the EU for many years afterwards, and even then only if they could meet certain criteria's with their new independent economy and agree to adopt the Euro financial system(the Scots wanted to keep the pound as their currency if I remember rightly last time out)...

Could be true. But if they do want to join, the sooner they start the process the better (for them I mean).

I mean look how long Turkey have wanted to join the EU and yet they are still saying that it will be at least 2030 before they even get a sniff at it, and Turkey is a lot richer country than Scotland would ever be.

You see, you (UK) put always the economic arguments before anything else.
In the EU I prefer a "poor" country with a true European spirit to a "rich" country that only works to sabotage the EU from the inside.
As soon as Turkey meets all the criteria (on freedom, human rights etc), I'm more than glad to have them in the EU.

[HornetMaX]

And a bit of fun: http://thebrexitplan.com/