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First person simulator server

Started by Adalgood, August 20, 2017, 05:10:56 PM

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Hawk

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 12:13:33 PM
I'm fine with current aids (just think the current auto-rider lean fwd/back looks ugly), I think they penalise you enough.
And for sure I don't want them to be made more efficient, even if it was possible. But I think that saying "hardcore must allow shift help" makes no sense.

Who said anything about hardcore must allow shift-help? All I've been saying is that if you DON'T use manual operation of the clutch and throttle on certain bikes then you should have to use the shift help option for that bike to ride/function/handle properly, as should be the case with the classic bikes........ We all know that with the modern bikes you can just twist the throttle and the electronics will do everything else for you.  :P ;D

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 12:13:33 PM
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 11:56:06 AM
Let's get things into perspective here...... Just like in reality, if a rider uses a clutch and throttle properly when changing gears then there is little chance of breaking the gearbox, so it would only be those riders that purposely abuse the gearbox that a failure would be likely, so that would be their own fault and not a consequence of being at a disadvantage to the auto-aid user. So you've no argument there.  ;)
Unless properly using the clutch to shift down (and the throttle to shift up) involves some degree of skill, which is likely. In that case, shift help kind of negates that. Hence the people that are in favor of saying "hardcore = no shift help".

Totally agree Max, in fact there is more skill involved than obviously some realise in the way a rider can use the manual clutch to operate the bike and the way it handles during the gearshift phases(Electronics have taken away all this knowledge from riders these days it seems if you have to wonder if it's "likely" that a rider requires skill in the use of a manual clutch to get the best out of it.  :) ).... But at least the shift help option would be there for those that NEED it, yes?  :)

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 12:13:33 PM
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 11:56:06 AM
If your not using fully manual clutch and throttle controls to operate the 2 stroke varese then you should have to use shift help with that bike for it to ride smoothly and handle well. There is no way in hell you would be able to ride a 2 stroke well with no risk of failures without using the clutch and throttle properly on the classic 2 stroke bikes(they didn't have electronics or quick shifters).
You don't need the clutch to shift up, you just need to lift the throttle. Even on a 2 strokes.

That is very true, but shifting without using a clutch on classic bikes still runs the risk of greater gearbox damage in comparison to a rider who uses a clutch to upshift, because to do it without gearbox damage you have to be spot on every time with your engine speed/throttle and upshift timing.... that's not always an easy thing to do in certain circumstances in the heat of a race, even for experienced riders.

PS: Updated previous post with my controller info.  ;)

HornetMaX

Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 12:36:36 PM
That is very true, but shifting without using a clutch on classic bikes still runs the risk of greater gearbox damage in comparison to a rider who uses a clutch to upshift, because to do it without gearbox damage you have to be spot on every time with your engine speed/throttle and upshift timing.... that's not always an easy thing to do in certain circumstances in the heat of a race, even for experienced riders.
We're talking about races here: in 500cc they were not using the clutch to shift up as far as I remember.

Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 11:56:06 AM
Controller I use: Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X. I've my lean on the left/right joystick axis and the throttle set to forward axis and brake set on the back axis of the joystick. All other buttons on the joystick assembly are on/off buttons not analogue..... I could set my clutch on the Throttle assembly of my joystick unit which is a totally separate piece of kit, but as I hold the main joystick assembly in my hand to operate it that is not possible.
But I have tried gamepads and even have an xbox controller too, but I like smooth predictable precision movements and they don't provide it by a long way because the sticks movement of the bike lean angles is too much for the little travel they have, and I also like the angle of the stick to represent the angle of the bike when I operate it; that's my frame of reference.  :)

You are using one single joystick (2 axes) for bike lean, throttle and front brake ?!  :o That is close to suicide.

For joypads, I can use a stick for bike lean with direct lean at 100% with no problem. And I'm no special.

With your setup you're just making your life way harder and you have no clutch and rear brake (both analog).


Grooveski

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 01:00:53 PM
You are using one single joystick (2 axes) for bike lean, throttle and front brake ?!  :o That is close to suicide.

Isn't that what joysticks are for?  Having a hard time thinking of any other way of using it.   :P

My stick setup is exactly the same(but I also use a controller for rider lean, clutch and back brake).
You can't blip/feather the throttle while braking...
(so on some bikes I flick on shift help for the blip)
...and can't do burnouts.   :(

But that's about it in the way of problems - 'close to suicide' is laying it on a little strong.   ;)

Hawk

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 01:00:53 PM
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 12:36:36 PM
That is very true, but shifting without using a clutch on classic bikes still runs the risk of greater gearbox damage in comparison to a rider who uses a clutch to upshift, because to do it without gearbox damage you have to be spot on every time with your engine speed/throttle and upshift timing.... that's not always an easy thing to do in certain circumstances in the heat of a race, even for experienced riders.
We're talking about races here: in 500cc they were not using the clutch to shift up as far as I remember.

Here is an onboard view of King Kenny Roberts in action at Imola, riding the 1982 0W60 Yamaha 2 stroke Classic GP500 bike... Clearly shows him using the clutch for both up and downshift as well as the required throttle blipping and the odd missed gear.  ;D :

https://www.youtube.com/v/XhkZetCyaNs#t=96.1936825

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 01:00:53 PM
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 11:56:06 AM
Controller I use: Thrustmaster T-Flight Hotas X. I've my lean on the left/right joystick axis and the throttle set to forward axis and brake set on the back axis of the joystick. All other buttons on the joystick assembly are on/off buttons not analogue..... I could set my clutch on the Throttle assembly of my joystick unit which is a totally separate piece of kit, but as I hold the main joystick assembly in my hand to operate it that is not possible.
But I have tried gamepads and even have an xbox controller too, but I like smooth predictable precision movements and they don't provide it by a long way because the sticks movement of the bike lean angles is too much for the little travel they have, and I also like the angle of the stick to represent the angle of the bike when I operate it; that's my frame of reference.  :)

You are using one single joystick (2 axes) for bike lean, throttle and front brake ?!  :o That is close to suicide.

For joypads, I can use a stick for bike lean with direct lean at 100% with no problem. And I'm no special.

With your setup you're just making your life way harder and you have no clutch and rear brake (both analog).

Until I have the money spare to buy an HS2 controller from DD(with drop-racing bars) then I'd rather have precision smooth lean/throttle & front brake ability over anything else. Plus the fact that the rear brake is not much use anyway when your braking hard into a corner as all the weight is on the front end and the rear should be teetering almost off the ground at that point, so rear brake not much use to you there; but of course, a lot depends on your riding style......  I know Kevin Schwantz said he never used the rear brake at all on his 500 GP bike, same I believe with Kenny Roberts; both riders who adjusted their corner entry speeds before they peeled into the apex so didn't need to use any braking in the corner itself.  :)

But yeah I'm very used to it and it feels comfortable to control the bike well in comparison to a gamepad.  :P :)




Hawk

Quote from: Grooveski on August 23, 2017, 01:20:42 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 01:00:53 PM
You are using one single joystick (2 axes) for bike lean, throttle and front brake ?!  :o That is close to suicide.

Isn't that what joysticks are for?  Having a hard time thinking of any other way of using it.   :P

My stick setup is exactly the same(but I also use a controller for rider lean, clutch and back brake).
You can't blip/feather the throttle while braking...
(so on some bikes I flick on shift help for the blip)
...and can't do burnouts.   :(

But that's about it in the way of problems - 'close to suicide' is laying it on a little strong.   ;)

+1 Groove.  ;)

Sounds like we have very similar setups.  ;D ;)

Hawk.

Vini

August 23, 2017, 02:19:07 PM #50 Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 02:22:37 PM by vini97
You are not damaging the gearbox when upshifting without the clutch, everybody does it. Otherwise quickshifters wouldn't be a thing.
That onboard video doesn't mean much, given that he is just cruising.

I have no idea how you can ride with that configuration but to each his own I guess.
BTW, rear brake is very useful coming out of corners, especially on bikes without electronics. Even MotoGP riders today use it to smooth out the power delivery.

Hawk

August 23, 2017, 02:28:12 PM #51 Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 02:35:48 PM by Hawk
Quote from: vini97 on August 23, 2017, 02:19:07 PM
You are not damaging the gearbox when upshifting without the clutch, everybody does it. Otherwise quickshifters wouldn't be a thing.
That onboard video doesn't mean much given that he is just cruising.

I have no idea how you can ride with that configuration but to each his own I guess.
BTW, rear brake is very useful coming out of corners, especially on bikes without electronics. Even MotoGP riders today use it to smooth out the power delivery.

Agreed, but we're talking about classic bikes without the quickshifter gearboxes Vin, which as we have said is also possible to upshift without using the clutch too but not as easy and does risk damaging the gearbox in comparison to a quickshifter modern gearbox assembly. :)

How you use the rear brake is up to you.... each one to there own style as they say. But in GPB the rear brake usage in corners is a little exaggerated in comparison to it's real-life effect I would say?

Kenny maybe just cruising in that video, but a rider doesn't change his lifetime technique of changing gears just because he's cruising..... I'll try to find another vid of a rider actually racing a classic 2 stroke were it shows the manual actions of clutch/throttle, but back in those days they very rarely had on-board views simply because the camera technology wasn't around in those days. But I'll try and find a better example if I can and post it to demonstrate. :)


Vini

August 23, 2017, 02:39:20 PM #52 Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 02:46:03 PM by vini97
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 02:28:12 PMAgreed, but we're talking about classic bikes without the quickshifter gearboxes Vin, which as we have said is also possible to upshift without using the clutch too but not as easy and does risk damaging the gearbox in comparison to a quickshifter modern gearbox assembly. :)
There is no such thing as a "quickshifter gearbox". The guickshifter simply cuts the ignition when operating the gearshifter, the gearbox and clutch have nothing to do with that. So if "safe upshifting" really required the clutch, everyone who rides a bike with a quickshifter would have ruined his gearbox.

Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 02:28:12 PMBut in GPB the rear brake usage in corners is a little exaggerated in comparison to it's real-life effect I would say?
I have found little use for the rear brake mid corner but I use it on almost every corner exit on the more powerful bikes.

Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 02:28:12 PMKenny maybe just cruising in that video, but a rider doesn't change his lifetime technique of changing gears just because he's cruising.  :)
He may be because if you are not going flat out, shifting up without the clutch becomes much more tricky (I think because the torque differential is smaller?). Go and try it on a real bike: Go full throttle then upshift by cutting it completely and then attempt the same when only cruising at partial throttle. You will most likely mess up.

tchemi

Quote from: vini97 on August 23, 2017, 02:39:20 PM
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 02:28:12 PMAgreed, but we're talking about classic bikes without the quickshifter gearboxes Vin, which as we have said is also possible to upshift without using the clutch too but not as easy and does risk damaging the gearbox in comparison to a quickshifter modern gearbox assembly. :)
There is no such thing as a "quickshifter gearbox". The guickshifter simply cuts the ignition when operating the gearshifter, the gearbox and clutch have nothing to do with that. So if "safe upshifting" really required the clutch, everyone who rides a bike with a quickshifter would have ruined his gearbox.
True ! I have an old GL 1100 from '82 and I can quick shift it without any problem. When does end the 'classic bike' era ??

Quote from: vini97 on August 23, 2017, 02:39:20 PM
Go and try it on a real bike: Go full throttle then upshift by cutting it completely and then attempt the same when only cruising at partial throttle. You will most likely mess up.
Also true !!

Hawk

Agree with what your saying there about upshifting at lower speeds.... as I say, I'll try and find a vid of actual racing action from that era but it'll be hard to find I think. :-\
But no one is saying you "definitely" need to use the clutch on upshift(we already said that you can upshift without using a clutch), just that it's less stress on the gearbox by doing so. So no one is saying you have to use a clutch to upshift at all, just that it's advisable on the old classic bikes. :)

I think you are over simplifying the quickshifter process Vin. Certainly you are taking the process out of context in comparison to the old classic bikes manual gearshift change procedure:

Quote: "Since quick shifters dispense with the rider having to fiddle about with the clutch and throttle, we have to inform the engine and ECU of gear changes just as they happen. The way this is achieved in most cases is by simply replacing the gear shift rod with another gear shift rod incorporating a mechanical sensor, which is then connected to the ECU. Under acceleration, as your foot moves the gear shift lever upwards, this mechanical sensor informs the ECU of an impending gear change. The ECU either cuts the ignition or cuts fueling to the engine ever so briefly (as little as 15 milliseconds), to take the extreme inertial forces off the drivetrain just long enough to neatly slot the next gear into place with minimal fuss. This ECU intervention mimics the throttling off and on of our gear changes, but six times faster than we can perceive it and perfectly every time."

So the difference in comparison is massive when comparing a fully manual upshift gear change to an electronically controlled/timed quickshifter gear upshift. Big difference don't you think? :P

Vini

August 23, 2017, 03:39:42 PM #55 Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 03:42:31 PM by vini97
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 03:26:36 PMSo the difference in comparison is massive when comparing a fully manual upshift gear change to an electronically controlled/timed quickshifter gear upshift. Big difference don't you think? :P
I don't see your point. The shifting process itself is exactly the same. If anything, a quickshifter should do even more harm because the timeframe is much smaller. So if a quickshifter doesn't harm your gearbox, manually shifting withouth the clutch will definitely not harm it.

HornetMaX

Quote from: Grooveski on August 23, 2017, 01:20:42 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 01:00:53 PM
You are using one single joystick (2 axes) for bike lean, throttle and front brake ?!  :o That is close to suicide.

Isn't that what joysticks are for?  Having a hard time thinking of any other way of using it.   :P

My stick setup is exactly the same(but I also use a controller for rider lean, clutch and back brake).
You can't blip/feather the throttle while braking...
To me the biggest drawback of your/Hawk's setup is that in a turn, leaning at steady angle, if you need to (front) brake or open the throttle, you will mess up your leaning. Because it's pretty hard to keep your stick at (let's say) exactly 45degrees right and move in up or down significantly (and significantly fast).

With a joypad you can have the leaning on a stick and throttle+brake on the other stick (or, more usually, on the triggers).

Just my opinion of course, but I think having leaning and throttle/brake on separate sticks/triggers is a huge advantage and it more than offsets the extra precision a joystick gives you on the leaning (precision that disappears whenever you need to brake/accelerate while leaning).

Also, movements with a joystick are much slower: this is fine for leaning but it's totally not fine for throttle and brake.

P.S.
Years ago I've bought a T1600 just to give this setup a try and I've put it back in the box after 10 minutes. It's eating dust since.

Grooveski

August 23, 2017, 04:42:55 PM #57 Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 04:49:05 PM by Grooveski
Need faster movement for throttle and brakes?  ???  I don't see why - I can flip myself over either way too easily as it is.   :P
I get it though - you tried a stick for ten minutes and didn't like it.  I've been using one for donkeys years and do like it.
I play car games with a pad set up the way you're decribing - just prefer the stick for bikes.

People are different.  ;)

P.S.

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 04:10:30 PM
To me the biggest drawback of your/Hawk's setup is that in a turn, leaning at steady angle, if you need to (front) brake or open the throttle, you will mess up your leaning. Because it's pretty hard to keep your stick at (let's say) exactly 45degrees right and move in up or down significantly (and significantly fast).

Never been an issue - ever.   ;)

Hawk

Quote from: Grooveski on August 23, 2017, 04:42:55 PM
Need faster movement for throttle and brakes?  ???  I don't see why - I can flip myself over either way too easily as it is.   :P
I get it though - you tried a stick for ten minutes and didn't like it.  I've been using one for donkeys years and do like it.
I play car games with a pad set up the way you're decribing - just prefer the stick for bikes.

People are different.  ;)

P.S.

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 04:10:30 PM
To me the biggest drawback of your/Hawk's setup is that in a turn, leaning at steady angle, if you need to (front) brake or open the throttle, you will mess up your leaning. Because it's pretty hard to keep your stick at (let's say) exactly 45degrees right and move in up or down significantly (and significantly fast).

Never been an issue - ever.   ;)

Never been an issue for me neither. It's works perfect for me too(lean/brake/throttle that is for me).  ;)

Quote from: vini97 on August 23, 2017, 03:39:42 PM
Quote from: Hawk on August 23, 2017, 03:26:36 PMSo the difference in comparison is massive when comparing a fully manual upshift gear change to an electronically controlled/timed quickshifter gear upshift. Big difference don't you think? :P
I don't see your point. The shifting process itself is exactly the same. If anything, a quickshifter should do even more harm because the timeframe is much smaller. So if a quickshifter doesn't harm your gearbox, manually shifting withouth the clutch will definitely not harm it.

Well all I can say, Vin, is that if you think an electronically controlled gearshift process is the very same as a human controlled manual mechanical gearshift process(on a classic bike) then there is no point in our discussion continuing.  There is a massive difference in it's application in comparison to a fully mechanical human applied gearshift operation. The electronically controlled timing of shutting off the fuel or ignition and gear change timing for engine speed is way more perfect than any human could achieve on a consistent basis; if you think that is the same as a human making a fully mechanical gearshift then your seriously misunderstanding the process of both actions, but more importantly in relation to what were talking about here, the possible results of each action towards the wear and tear of a gearbox over the course of a race. :)

Electronic aided quickshift = Perfect every time with normal rate of wear to gearbox.

Human mechanical gearshift without clutch use on a classic bike = Inconsistent timing with the likely result of significant damage to the gearbox over the course of a race.


nuovaic

Quote from: Grooveski on August 23, 2017, 04:42:55 PM
Need faster movement for throttle and brakes?  ???  I don't see why - I can flip myself over either way too easily as it is.   :P
I get it though - you tried a stick for ten minutes and didn't like it.  I've been using one for donkeys years and do like it.
I play car games with a pad set up the way you're decribing - just prefer the stick for bikes.

People are different.  ;)

P.S.

Quote from: HornetMaX on August 23, 2017, 04:10:30 PM
To me the biggest drawback of your/Hawk's setup is that in a turn, leaning at steady angle, if you need to (front) brake or open the throttle, you will mess up your leaning. Because it's pretty hard to keep your stick at (let's say) exactly 45degrees right and move in up or down significantly (and significantly fast).

Never been an issue - ever.   ;)

No issue for me either. I find a joystick much more intuitive, more precise. I tried a xbox pad for 10 mins, been gathering dust since.