• Welcome to PiBoSo Official Forum. Please login or sign up.
 
June 13, 2021, 06:16:22 AM

News:

GP Bikes beta19b available! :)


The State of Modern MotoGP, Past and Future.....

Started by Hawk, July 18, 2019, 12:00:46 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Myst1cPrun3

There's also a reason why it nearly financially killed grand Prix racing  :o

Hawk

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 10, 2020, 03:54:05 PMThere's also a reason why it nearly financially killed grand Prix racing  :o

But they didn't, did they..... In fact they came back stronger when the factories started to sell their engines alone to privateer teams.
The time your talking about was just a period of bad management by the governing bodies of the world championships series..... In fact it was Kenney Roberts who helped a great deal in getting the changes through to right the wrongs at the time and get the 500's back in business again.

So no. It wasn't 2 strokes that nearly financially killed GP racing at all, it was just bad management by the governing bodies and lack of thought from the factories at the time towards privateer teams.

Myst1cPrun3

Up until 2002 when the MotoGP era started grids were shrinking and costs skyrocketing.

Granted the early 90s was worse, and they did use factory teams to sell engines and bikes to privateers, but it was very much a temporary plaster rather than a permanent operation, which is what was needed.

And what it got in the switch to 4 strokes.

I'm not saying there was no external factors such as management, sponsorships and manufacturer decisions etc, but overall the 2 stroke engines and motorcycles were too expensive to keep developing.

And there road application was limited even then, with 750s and 1000 twins taking over, so all that rnd money wasn't being returned to the manufacturers.



I do however wonder what 2 strokes would be like with todays rules, and what MotoGP would be like if we stuck to 2t

Granted we have the suter, but that's very much a compromise, (I imagine a perfect bike for you hawk) with no aids but modern fueling etc, but I don't believe it to be where MotoGP would have been.

Huh
That could be an idea for a GP Bikes mod....  ;)

I'll look into that



Hawk

Quote from: Myst1cPrun3 on June 11, 2020, 12:26:30 AMUp until 2002 when the MotoGP era started grids were shrinking and costs skyrocketing.

Granted the early 90s was worse, and they did use factory teams to sell engines and bikes to privateers, but it was very much a temporary plaster rather than a permanent operation, which is what was needed.

And what it got in the switch to 4 strokes.

I'm not saying there was no external factors such as management, sponsorships and manufacturer decisions etc, but overall the 2 stroke engines and motorcycles were too expensive to keep developing.

And there road application was limited even then, with 750s and 1000 twins taking over, so all that rnd money wasn't being returned to the manufacturers.



I do however wonder what 2 strokes would be like with todays rules, and what MotoGP would be like if we stuck to 2t

Granted we have the suter, but that's very much a compromise, (I imagine a perfect bike for you hawk) with no aids but modern fueling etc, but I don't believe it to be where MotoGP would have been.

Huh
That could be an idea for a GP Bikes mod....  ;)

I'll look into that




Well in theory, 2-strokes should be a lot cheaper to produce than 4-strokes(a lot less parts to design and build). ;)

Besides, at the time(you probably won't remember this cause your too young), the public roads were full of 2-stroke bikes being ridden for everyday use by people..... Right from 50cc for the school leavers, right up to 750cc bikes.
It was the 4-strokes that were few and far between; they were considered just a touring bike ridden by the old generations who only brought them out on hot sunny days for road trips. And the funny thing is it's still the same today except all the 2-strokes have disappeared, we hardly see any bikers on the roads these days except for race days and the odd person on a sunny day posing around...... Virtually banning 2-strokes from the bike market killed the bike market in the UK.... People started to by-pass getting a bike and went to getting cars instead. The only bikers left(if you can really call them bikers anymore? More like Sunday riders out on sunny days. Lol!),they only buy bikes as a type of extra mode of transport that they only use in summer and nice days out for posing and road trips..... It's all changed for the worse.... Just a totally different attitude and era, I'm afraid..... Very sad state of affairs for the bike market. :(  :(

As for the MOD idea: That would be great mate..... Love to see it.... Get on it mate, make it a beast!! ;D  ;D  8)

Myst1cPrun3

I will say the reduction of 2t on the road did change the market somewhat, but I wouldn't say it killed the market.

Stalled it maybe as manufacturers alter rnd and tech to accommodate.

In-fact in the past few years (5-10) the amount of license passes and bike sales has risen showing a bright future for bikes. I don't know how many people can be classed as bikers but still. I would have had one if I was allowed.  ;D

The future is Even more bright looking at it, now bikes are exempt from the 'electronic vehicle requirement' that's being introduced.



There is also rumour of the 600cc SSP market being replaced with 750cc bikes to combat the catalytic converter power saps which I find interesting, and I hope it happens. Love 750s


And the mod:

Can't promise it'll be any good, or done any time soon, but I'll give it a go. I'll aim for a release with GP Bikes version one.  ;)

Vini

lol come on. Today's 4t MotoGP bikes are much more expensive than the 500s.

Manu

What killed 2T is that there was no impact on sales of two-stroke bikes while four-stroke dominated the streets.
It's Easier to Fool People Than It Is to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled.

Hawk

Quote from: Manu on June 11, 2020, 04:15:41 PMWhat killed 2T is that there was no impact on sales of two-stroke bikes while four-stroke dominated the streets.

Not so in the UK Manu.....

I'd say it was simply to do with the new laws the UK gov brought in at the time..... I personally suspect it being an economic plot to get people to buy 4t's instead of 2t's.... But the general reaction at the time was to not buy a bike at all and buy a car instead. That's what a cock-up the UK Gov made of the transition from 2t to 4t bikes in the UK market..... It would be different in other countries of course. ;)

Hawk

A talk with Eddie Lawson..... A very interesting watch for those of us that were around during the glory blue-ribbon years of GP500cc racing.

He specifically taks about the differences between MotoGP bikes of today compared with the GP500's.... I think he proves my point for this thread, don't you? :P  ;D



Hawk


Chris_Beeves

If the rider is fat and slow and the bike is light and fast the mean value should be good. In theory.
I had to try..

HornetMaX

My 2c. What I have on my Tuono 1100 RR (2018):
  • ABS: must have. On any bike, even 50cc scooters if possible.
  • TCS: must have above a given power (I'd say 80cv)
  • Cruise control: I was really not convinced, until I had to do 150Km highway with the Tuono. If you're at 130Kmh (limit here) and you get a bit distracted, in the blink of an eye you are at 160Kmh. So yeah, I like Cruise control. Don't want it, don't use it.
  • Power modes: must have above a given power (I'd say 80cv). You *want* to use this when it's wet: typically one of the modes is rain/wet, with limited engine power. But not for Aprilia, that decided that on the Tuono all 3 modes (sport, track and race) are full power, because ... well, I don't know. Looks dumb to me.
  • Shifter: if you have a good one, it's just a pleasure to use. If it does downshifting too then even better. Anyway, most of the time if you dont like it you can switch it off / just use the clutch.
  • Launch control: this is stupid on *any* road bike. I have it, I haven't even tried it.

Can't say a word on electronic supsensions, never tried. What I've heard from realiable sources (testers), when they are done properly they are nice to have. Mostly good on touring bikes & the likes.

Hawk

Quote from: HornetMaX on February 21, 2021, 02:36:40 PMMy 2c. What I have on my Tuono 1100 RR (2018):
  • ABS: must have. On any bike, even 50cc scooters if possible.
  • TCS: must have above a given power (I'd say 80cv)
  • Cruise control: I was really not convinced, until I had to do 150Km highway with the Tuono. If you're at 130Kmh (limit here) and you get a bit distracted, in the blink of an eye you are at 160Kmh. So yeah, I like Cruise control. Don't want it, don't use it.
  • Power modes: must have above a given power (I'd say 80cv). You *want* to use this when it's wet: typically one of the modes is rain/wet, with limited engine power. But not for Aprilia, that decided that on the Tuono all 3 modes (sport, track and race) are full power, because ... well, I don't know. Looks dumb to me.
  • Shifter: if you have a good one, it's just a pleasure to use. If it does downshifting too then even better. Anyway, most of the time if you don't like it you can switch it off / just use the clutch.
  • Launch control: this is stupid on *any* road bike. I have it, I haven't even tried it.

Can't say a word on electronic suspensions, never tried. What I've heard from reliable sources (testers), when they are done properly they are nice to have. Mostly good on touring bikes & the likes.

  • ABS: It was always said that "ABS" is for "Rabbits" - People who panic and freeze in difficult situations and slam on the brakes.
  • TCS: We used to say that using a "TCS" on any bike no matter what the power is for people who really have no idea how to ride a motorcycle properly and is only for old men touring a bike.
  • Cruise control: I can understand some people finding it useful on a long tour especially on motorways, but with the amount of traffic around nowadays it's probably becoming a nonsense feature on any vehicle, in my opinion, with all the stopping starting slowing down speeding up that goes on these days with the sheer amount of traffic on roads that needs taking into consideration.
  • Power Modes: Again, riding a motorcycle without power-modes, it's part of the excitement of riding a bike, especially a powerful bike, to learn how to use your throttle-hand properly in any given situation..... In my opinion, Power-Modes just take that excitement & fear element away from the rider and are just for lazy people who haven't got a clue how to ride a bike properly or just want to take the easy way out and not have to learn how to apply power correctly in given situations.... Takes all the fun & fear out of it.... A sign of the times I guess - so many pussies around it seems nowadays. Lol!  ;D  ;D
  • Shifter: Yeah maybe a pleasure to use, but again, it takes away from the real pleasure of riding a motorcycle, in my opinion.
  • Launch Control: Now this is a total nonsense feature on a road bike, absolutely not needed at all, and given the skill required in racing to get off the line fast, to have it on a race bike is just a cheat device in my opinion, but again, the powers that be in MotoGP don't seem to see any rider-aid-device that takes away from a riders skillset as being a cheat these days, so.....

poumpouny

@hawk, you definitely born in the wrong time, but i bet that even if you were in the 2stroke hard core riding time, you will probably argue about an older way to ride bike, but anyway, you know you can just deactivate all this aid, and ride the most kamikazy way you want. It's not because you don't like it that manufacterer don't need to put it on modern bike, again until you can desactivate it !