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Brexit or not ?

Started by HornetMaX, June 20, 2016, 10:38:16 PM

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HornetMaX

I've found this: it's probably the closest thing to truth I've found in the entire campaign :)


matty0l215

I do like the northern europe way things are run. From what im aware things are more transparant. People have mor control over what happenes.

Im not to sure about the french method. I creates madness sureley. And i know a lot of lazy bastard ho would want to strike for everything.

After max's second post- i dont agree with that. Our hands are tied on so many things europe introduces and we can do anything about it. Stupid little things like our agraculture and food industry are heavily regulated and it is killing our farms/fishering etc because of it.
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Napalm Nick

Hands up all those general public who think they know enough true facts about how the EU runs to make an informed and accurate decision. Keep your hand up if you aren't certified as delusional.
"The post you are writing has been written at least ten times already in the last 15ish years. Its already been reported, suggested, discussed, ignored or archived (but mostly ignored). Why are you doing it again?"

matty0l215

June 21, 2016, 10:15:08 AM #18 Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 10:19:36 AM by matty0l215
The european goverment is not better or worse than any other goverment currently in power. There is corruption weather people like it or not. All i know is that the there are people at the bottem who are suffering from the effects of rule inplaced. Be they well informed, conpletly legimiet reasons or not. Blanket cover or a large scale doesnt always work.

Look at the USA if thy had one set of rules for the entire country they'd probably colapse. Instead each state can make their own laws dependant on the area affected. It might not be the best way to run it but it does work.
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h106frp

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 10:08:16 AM
Hands up all those general public who think they know enough true facts about how the EU runs to make an informed and accurate decision. Keep your hand up if you aren't certified as delusional.

I do not think you need to be a genius to work out that it should be;

a) more accountable
b) less wasteful of the resources it has
c) less partisan towards certain countries and economies, look at its recent response to our own governments proposals

But it refuses to evolve - trapped in a 1970's view of the world and its issues

Napalm Nick

And leaving will make this better how? Hope and assumption? Its not geniuses that are needed it is facts.
"The post you are writing has been written at least ten times already in the last 15ish years. Its already been reported, suggested, discussed, ignored or archived (but mostly ignored). Why are you doing it again?"

HornetMaX

Quote from: matty0l215 on June 21, 2016, 10:05:09 AM
I do like the northern europe way things are run. From what im aware things are more transparant. People have mor control over what happenes.
But for it to work you need scandinavian people, both as citizens and governmnet members :)

Quote from: matty0l215 on June 21, 2016, 10:05:09 AM
Im not to sure about the french method. I creates madness sureley. And i know a lot of lazy bastard ho would want to strike for everything.
That's a myth. When a silly bunch goes on strike (like taxi owners recently in FR, against Uber and similar), no matter what they do, they look silly.
But when you have 1M and more in the streets, then ... well, even if one can consider they are wrong, you have to listen.
And no, you don't have 1M people in the streets once per week. Not even here in france :)

Quote from: matty0l215 on June 21, 2016, 10:05:09 AM
After max's second post- i dont agree with that. Our hands are tied on so many things europe introduces and we can do anything about it. Stupid little things like our agraculture and food industry are heavily regulated and it is killing our farms/fishering etc because of it.
Actually your agriculture is said to be more than supported (some would go as far as "kept alive") by EU subventions ...

Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 10:08:16 AM
Hands up all those general public who think they know enough true facts about how the EU runs to make an informed and accurate decision. Keep your hand up if you aren't certified as delusional.
I see your point, but then what ? At some point, if you accept democracy, you accept that to some degree people decide.
What would you want to do ? Elect a chap because he looks nice and talks smooth and smells good and then trust him to fight the fight for, say, the people collecting your rubbish from the roads ?
I guess that after 60 years of that, we can confidently say that this does not work. Except maybe in Scandinavia :)

Quote from: h106frp on June 21, 2016, 10:22:37 AM
I do not think you need to be a genius to work out that it should be;

a) more accountable
b) less wasteful of the resources it has
c) less partisan towards certain countries and economies, look at its recent response to our own governments proposals

But it refuses to evolve - trapped in a 1970's view of the world and its issues
Lol h. This is why I think UK should be out (up to "sent out"): because it just doesn't fit with the general idea of European Union.

You (UK, not you personally of course) want to be in, but with your own currency, non-metric system and driving on the left.
Of course, you're very happy to touch all the money for the agricultural policies, and rather glad (if not proud) to have a fairly suspect tax policy towards large companies (without talking about your wee islands here and there, on which there's no tax policy at all). Immigrants ? No thanks. Please hold them in Calais. Forever if possible. Refugees ? Already discussed, in the Immigrants paragraph.

For every single decision to be taken in the EU, the UK position is always, systematically, ineluctably: I'm OK if it brings me money, else I'm against it. I kind of prefer the Swiss attitude: at least with them it's clear, they don't try to play on both sides. They say I don't like it, I don't join it.

h106frp

Probably a very true assessment, maybe describes the 'in crowd' just as much as the 'out crowd' though.

Work for a multinational, i have global colleagues, worked in all over europe, switzerland (even have a permit  ;) ) and the globe for 30 years. I like europe, i like the idea of a united europe - i just find the way the EU is run and some of it policies totally mad - even faced with the facts they have got something wrong they plough on with their heads in the sand - the destruction of Greece is not a solution to its problems for example.

Napalm Nick

No no, I am not suggesting I have a solution or a way forward. I am saying we (the people) have the least insight into what is the right decision because we only have the facts we are told (spun), not the hands on accounting books. I expect (best use of this emo ever -  ::)) our politicians to have access to those facts and make the right decision for us. Nobody should be in a better position to make that decision. I am well aware they probably couldn't find the facts if they were dressed in sparkly costumes. So it all comes down to our guess or their guess. No-one can predict what will happen as a result. Their guess should be better but they have given that chance away.

Hence I am not putting here my decision or any 'facts' to support my decision - cos I know its bollox. You are welcome to have a guess at what I will vote. The same as my guess at the actual vote.
"The post you are writing has been written at least ten times already in the last 15ish years. Its already been reported, suggested, discussed, ignored or archived (but mostly ignored). Why are you doing it again?"

h106frp

Unfortunately preferred option 1 - 'fix whats broken'  :)  is not on the poll card leaving the more unpleasant choice of 'in' or 'out'  :(

matty0l215

I cant quite all that :P

1 very true. 2 fair enough i don't know enough so thats where i stop on that discusion.

But 3, i live in North Norfolk, a very agracultral and fishing industry based reigon of the UK (i kid you not it is one giant farm apart from the towns. It is one very giant tightly nitted comunity despite what anyone says. And whenever I speak to them they are always moanong about this new rule or that new law. I enjoy sea fishing and some of the recent laws brought in are redicules (to restrictive too soon) but there nothing they (the fishermen) could have done. The law was passed before anyone could react.
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Napalm Nick

Quote from: h106frp on June 21, 2016, 11:14:56 AM
Unfortunately preferred option 1 - 'fix whats broken'  :)  is not on the poll card leaving the more unpleasant choice of 'in' or 'out'  :(

Hehe H ! Now that is a fact ! I would love to see a poll on what people think of that as a option. Inspired mate.

Hey Matty I thought you moved to Kent where all the people have short arms and deep pockets?
"The post you are writing has been written at least ten times already in the last 15ish years. Its already been reported, suggested, discussed, ignored or archived (but mostly ignored). Why are you doing it again?"

HornetMaX

Quote from: h106frp on June 21, 2016, 11:00:15 AM
I like europe, i like the idea of a united europe - i just find the way the EU is run and some of it policies totally mad - even faced with the facts they have got something wrong they plough on with their heads in the sand - the destruction of Greece is not a solution to its problems for example.

Totally agree with that h, I was in favor of greece leaving because I think it would have been better for them (more than for the rest of the EU to which, to be honest, the presence or absence of greece is overall irrelevant, except from the still important symbolic point of view).

Still doesn't change that for this kind of matters, there can't be "half in": either one joins, or not. The UK has been half-in since the start, ripping the benefits and avoiding (at least some of) the annoyances. So threatening to leave (when the referendum was put in place) and then campaigning to stay (the very same person !) is a bit too much.

When I read the paragraph "Didn't David Cameron try and change the rules of the UK's EU membership?" here: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887
I really really really want you out of the EU for good (which is sad), no matter if it will be better or worse for you and us. Because, again, UK does not seem to fit in the concept of Union: special status, no-discrimination protection on the pound, no intention to cover bail-outs, special rules for London ... seriously ? The mere fact this requests were put forward just boggles me.

For a short recap of the main issues at stake, I find this kind of good (and neutral, both camps' arguments are presented): http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32793642

I think ordinary people should read it and make up their minds. You don't need an Eton boys to tell you what's right: and you know that because if you take 10 of them, 5 will probably say stay and 5 leave :)

Stout Johnson

June 21, 2016, 11:33:18 AM #28 Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 11:35:13 AM by Stout Johnson
Quote from: Napalm Nick on June 21, 2016, 10:08:16 AM
Hands up all those general public who think they know enough true facts about how the EU runs to make an informed and accurate decision. Keep your hand up if you aren't certified as delusional.
:D that's a good one and a lot of truth in it... but like Churchill said - democracy is the worst form of government, except all the others ;) somehow you have to get a collective decision. But maybe only members of the parliament should cast their vote because they are/should be better informed on that subject and do represent the country?

Quote from: matty0l215 on June 21, 2016, 10:15:08 AM
Look at the USA if thy had one set of rules for the entire country they'd probably colapse. Instead each state can make their own laws dependant on the area affected.
That is similar to how Germany is run. I live in Germany and I have to say the federate organisation really hampers us. It is most obvious in how the educational system is run and how the federal police agencies work together (or rather lack thereof). Students have problems in being admitted to universities across the whole country because of lack of comparability of their respective A-levels, crimes that are comitted trans-state are less likely to be solved/take more time to be solved etc etc.

We could be much advanced if the federate system would be abolished. But since it is installed and there is a lot of power for decision makers and politicians at stake it is extremely hard to overcome (let alone that there is a constitional barrier). In my opinion, in most cases sectionalism is bad and may leave some regions behind.
    -----------   WarStout Kawasaki Team   -----------

Napalm Nick

I have been following the BBCs take on the discussion as my most neutral fact giver (not total, after all it is the BBC). Generally I would also recommend it. At least no tin foil hats are needed.

Wishing us out because of some Island protection clauses is a bit harsh isn't it? Even if more than that then surely that's clever negotiation. I don't remember wishing a certain nation out of NATO for having all for one, one for all unless-its-me clauses? Hmm maybe I did at the time it was a long while ago.

I suppose if we leave and it turns out to be for the best no-one else will want in on the action then.

"The post you are writing has been written at least ten times already in the last 15ish years. Its already been reported, suggested, discussed, ignored or archived (but mostly ignored). Why are you doing it again?"