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Suggestions and wishlist recap

Started by HornetMaX, January 19, 2014, 10:31:06 PM

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tseklias

July 10, 2014, 11:59:37 AM #105 Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 12:20:11 PM by tseklias
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 10, 2014, 07:50:46 AM
For the handlebars/lean axis thing I'm guessing that you would like to have two separate inputs, one for handlebars, one for lean. The thing is, on a real bike the two are not independent, so it wouldn't make much sense to have them separate.

why theyre not independent? what do you mean? :o
actually since its two different independantly working axis in real life why not have them in gpbikes.
what i was hoping is at least being able to use the handlebar steer at low speed for instance when you enter a grass section(in low speed) and also when you wheelie(cause actually when wheeling if you steer the handlebars left and right you must also move your body to balance the bike going straight again, cause a spinning front wheel is balancing you-this also mean that while wheeling when the front wheel will stop spinning the bike becomes quite unbalanced. i dont know if you ever noticed that it took me years of thinking to figure out why i was losing balance after some distance of wheeling and i never discovered why till one day a much more experienced race driver told me about it).
also if you reset in the middle of the corner i would like also to start accelerating and steering the wheel cause you cant actually lean having 10-20 kmh(not with a supersport[heavy] at least and not much).
also very useful using the low speed function.
even people playing with a xbox/ps controller can integrate this ability with the "back"(rb-lb/l1-r1) buttons and even setting a maximum percentage of steer where they feel comfortable.
not to mention the "window" we may open to future force feeback to the handlebars apart from lean(bike movement).

HornetMaX

Quote from: tseklias on July 10, 2014, 11:59:37 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 10, 2014, 07:50:46 AM
For the handlebars/lean axis thing I'm guessing that you would like to have two separate inputs, one for handlebars, one for lean. The thing is, on a real bike the two are not independent, so it wouldn't make much sense to have them separate.

why theyre not independent? what do you mean? :o
actually since its two different independantly working axis in real life why not have them in gpbikes.

It depends on what you mean with "independent": you turn the handlebars, the bike will lean no matter if you want it or not.

The only situation where they are "independent" is when wheeling (and even this is not entirely true).

What I mean is that you can't ask a bike to have any arbitrary combo of lean angle and handlebar angle: in steady state turn conditions, for a given lean angle there's a corresponding handlebars angle. If you change one you'll end up changing the other too. That does not apply if you have two independent inputs.

As a side note, a lot of people consider they control how much a bike leans using their body while in reality most of the control on that is done via the handlebars. For example: exiting a corner, when you pick up the bike from full lean right, you do this with the handlebars, not moving your body.

MaX.

tseklias

July 10, 2014, 07:41:43 PM #107 Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 08:06:06 PM by tseklias
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 10, 2014, 12:28:46 PM
It depends on what you mean with "independent": you turn the handlebars, the bike will lean no matter if you want it or not.

yes your entirely right but still you can use them seperately in many ocassions. just for a small example imagine trying to avoid a puddle on the road or when "drifting" in a straight(when you give the bike a very small lean angle)...
i can think of many more but the true need is the approach of reality and the "magic window" it will open for future updates.
what i mean to say is, dont you ever miss the thing that you cant give it a ride around the track like pfeiffer?
either way i will build mine with handlebar steer and install a force feedback motor also and hope for a future update of piboso.

=>also steering the handlebar too much on your example will have the opposite effect on leaning, meaningif you steer for example too much to the right the bike will not have the time to lean(right) and fall on the other side(left).

HornetMaX

To avoid an obstacle in emergency, you just counter-steer (i.e.want to pass to the right, you steer left and the bike will lean right). There's no "lean input" involved in that. On a bike there's no such a thing a "separate" lean input you can act on.

MaX.

tseklias

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 10, 2014, 08:34:45 PM
To avoid an obstacle in emergency, you just counter-steer (i.e.want to pass to the right, you steer left and the bike will lean right). There's no "lean input" involved in that. On a bike there's no such a thing a "separate" lean input you can act on.

actually it is. its kind of how do you mean it. it can be used as seperate but will always react as one and both affect each other . if you want to avoid a small obstacle lets say a kitty or a mouse from the road you can only steer a little but fast the handlebars cause leaning the bike takes much more time to start changing the direction your facing, plus you will still move linear and its dangerous cause if you step on it youll probably fall. if you give it a try in gpb and accelerate slowly from stand and steer left or right youll see that the riders actually uses the handlebar on its own. its like some pre-activated steer help since if the game actually didnt act like that, the rider could actually only lean(assuming your speed is actually enough to lean with the handlebasr being able to face the axis without making much of a movement)
i dont know if you can understand me actually sorry for my bad explaination, i can make you a video of what i mean if you want with both examples.

HornetMaX

Hmmm ... no. On a real bike, there's no separate lean input: you use the steering to lean the bike.

The fact that at low speed you can change the bike direction (almost) without leaning the bike is not really relevant: the lean angle of the bike is something that you "set" via the handlebars (torque applied to it) and using the rider body. Again, on a real bike you have a handlebar (torque) input, but not a bike lean angle (or torque or whatever) input.

I'm not sure if there's a language problem or if your understanding of how a bike works needs some clean up (there're good books around). Or maybe you're mixing the bike lean with the rider lean, don't know.

MaX.

tseklias

July 11, 2014, 12:50:36 PM #111 Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 12:53:49 PM by tseklias
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 11, 2014, 07:13:14 AM
Hmmm ... no. On a real bike, there's no separate lean input: you use the steering to lean the bike.

The fact that at low speed you can change the bike direction (almost) without leaning the bike is not really relevant: the lean angle of the bike is something that you "set" via the handlebars (torque applied to it) and using the rider body. Again, on a real bike you have a handlebar (torque) input, but not a bike lean angle (or torque or whatever) input.
how can you "almost" change when you actually change direction, i dont get that. lets take for example your leaving a gas station, when your still in the shops yard you move only the handlebars till you reach the road after entering the road and begin to build up some speed when the opposite effect start taking place meaning the handlebars start to become heavy to move and actually not really the right way to change directions.
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 11, 2014, 07:13:14 AM
I'm not sure if there's a language problem or if your understanding of how a bike works needs some clean up (there're good books around). Or maybe you're mixing the bike lean with the rider lean, don't know.
ok let me explain it to you here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBbz_cbNWk4 at 0:32 and on for some meters he uses the handlebars steer ability to leave pits(he cant actually lean cause he is conflicting with the bikes(and hes) dissability of weight and low speed which will make him instantly fall). at 1:11 he leans the bike(benefiting the speed which can actually balance the bike).
your taking it too much on the physics side when the thing is simple can you in real life turn using only the handlebars?=yes(simpler example can be seen on a tricycle bike)
can you now lean the bike to turn without using the handlebars?=yes
remember when you first tried gpb how many times you fell trying to leave the pits of victoria? so why not have this ability available to be used isnt this an anomaly?

HornetMaX

Quote from: tseklias on July 11, 2014, 12:50:36 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on July 11, 2014, 07:13:14 AM
Hmmm ... no. On a real bike, there's no separate lean input: you use the steering to lean the bike.

The fact that at low speed you can change the bike direction (almost) without leaning the bike is not really relevant: the lean angle of the bike is something that you "set" via the handlebars (torque applied to it) and using the rider body. Again, on a real bike you have a handlebar (torque) input, but not a bike lean angle (or torque or whatever) input.
how can you "almost" change when you actually change direction, i dont get that.
The "almost" was for the "without leaning": at low speed you can change the bike direction almost without leaning.

Quote from: tseklias on July 11, 2014, 12:50:36 PM
your taking it too much on the physics side when the thing is simple can you in real life turn using only the handlebars?=yes(simpler example can be seen on a tricycle bike)
Again, you can make a turn with handlebars only, but that is doable only at low speed (and the bike leans a bit anyway).
At normal speed (let's say >50Kmh), if you push the handlebars the bike will lean, no matter what. So having separate and independent handlebar angle and bike lean angle controls makes no sense.

Tricycles are a totally different thing, as they don't lean at all: you can't use them as an example for bikes.

Quote from: tseklias on July 11, 2014, 12:50:36 PM
can you now lean the bike to turn without using the handlebars?=yes
This is not as easy as many seems to think.

Just as an example: you're sitting on your bike, the handlebars are locked in middle/straight position, cruising on a flat straight at some speed (e.g. 60 Kmh). Now you lean your torso right: what happens to the bike ? I expect many riders (including experienced ones) to give the wrong answer.

MaX.

BOBR6 84

July 11, 2014, 03:03:54 PM #113 Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 03:14:00 PM by BOBR6 84
Weight on the footpegs helps..

I think counter steering happens subconciously anyway.. That helps turn too.. Then extra counter steer as you need it..

So your body weight leaning off the bike, pressure on footpeg and the pressure on handlebar all help you turn..

You dont turn the handlebars at all apart from slow speed..

Getting your weight over and on the footpegs is most important I think.. At high speed anyway..

Ps. I didnt read all the above posts..

Pps. Im racing at Aintree tomorrow! That track would be brilliant on gpbikes!!!

HornetMaX

Quote from: BOBR6 84 on July 11, 2014, 03:03:54 PM
I think counter steering happens subconciously anyway..
That's right and explains why many do it without being aware.

Quote from: BOBR6 84 on July 11, 2014, 03:03:54 PM
You dont turn the handlebars at all apart from slow speed..
But that's wrong. For sure you don't turn them at their max as when at very low speed (like 20 degree), but you do turn them. Usually not a lot (e.g. 3-5deg) but occasionally more. Can't pull some GPB telemetry right now but you definitely turn the
handlebars even at high speed.

MaX.

P.S.
For the ones still thinking you can (practically) lean only shifting your body: this video (just an extract) is pretty old and rather well known, but many may still find it interesting. Look how slowly the bike leans/turns when you're not actively using the handlebars.

http://www.youtube.com/v/4PbmXxwKbmA

MaX

tseklias

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 11, 2014, 07:13:14 AM
The "almost" was for the "without leaning": at low speed you can change the bike direction almost without leaning.
oh yeah that makes sense now. of course i told that they "always" work together meaning they affect each other.

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 11, 2014, 07:13:14 AM
Again, you can make a turn with handlebars only, but that is doable only at low speed (and the bike leans a bit anyway).
At normal speed (let's say >50Kmh), if you push the handlebars the bike will lean, no matter what. So having separate and independent handlebar angle and bike lean angle controls makes no sense.

Tricycles are a totally different thing, as they don't lean at all: you can't use them as an example for bikes.
as i said above yes i agree the bike needs at your will to be leaned a little in order to stay balanced. actually you CANT in any way try to steer with the use only of the handlebars with the speed you mentioned above you can make only fast and short movements cause the steering wheel is becoming "heavy" but beyond that if you although push it hard to steer youll only make the bike turn the position you pushed it and you will fall the opposite side NO lean will appear. they can be used in gpb(even with a joined/or not option) like in real life separate but not independent inputs for both type of steers, as for the phrase of your that it doesnt make sense... well i wasnt expecting that way of thinking from a simulation fan! simulation means coming closer and closer to reality if this is not THEN WHAT?!?! i think your more on the way the bike looks to move rather than my side that how the bike actually works. ask yourself now which of the two bolded mentioned will be a more suited to a subtitle to a simulation... ;)
tricycles was the most hardcore example i could think to make you understand what im saying.

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 11, 2014, 07:13:14 AM
This is not as easy as many seems to think.

Just as an example: you're sitting on your bike, the handlebars are locked in middle/straight position, cruising on a flat straight at some speed (e.g. 60 Kmh). Now you lean your torso right: what happens to the bike ? I expect many riders (including experienced ones) to give the wrong answer.
speaking on your example(60km/h) are way too slowly and the handlebars will need to be steered a little to the right in order to turn. BUT that doesnt mean you cant lean! you can actually lean but not push it too much and as your speed becomes greater and greater the steer of the handlebars is becoming pretty much useless to a point of almost zero steer actually.

HornetMaX

Well, I tried to explain it to you but it seems to be impossible. I can only suggest to buy a real book on how bike works and dive into it. Expect many of your current ideas to be proven wrong.

MaX.

P.S.
You didn't answer my question. If you don't like 60Kmh, make it 120Kmh or whatever.

tseklias

Quote from: HornetMaX on July 11, 2014, 04:16:25 PM
You didn't answer my question. If you don't like 60Kmh, make it 120Kmh or whatever.

i think the video you send the moment i was typing my answer to you explains it all. in less words low speed=more handlebar use, less lean.........high speed=less handlebar use, more lean.

and finally since you give me the feeling you kinda rankle with our conversation, remember its just a conversation man we both can take things out of it. after all its a game and were here to have fun and then all else, dont put that aside ;).

HornetMaX

No problem at all man. Cheers.

MaX.

Klax75

Interesting stuff.

I'm starting to get to the point in DST, I'm not thinking about it. I just know what to do. Makes me love GP bikes more. With DST, if I use the front brake in a sharp turn even at a high lean. Just like in the video the bike will want to sit itself back up. Before it looses all it speed then fall over. lol.