Which view do you use?

[doubledragoncc]

You all scream and shout about wanting a real simulator and then you ride in 3rd person because its easier or woteva.........................

IRL you sit on the bike, not ride in a car behind it where you see more of the track etc etc, so why use 3rd person if you so badly want a realistic sim?

Those who use 3rd person have a technical advantage over those using 1st person so it makes racing unfair.

Why not just practice more in 1st person and make it better for all, then you will also have a more realistic sim straight away too.

Just my 2 cents

DD

[BOBR6 84]

But the physics stay the same no matter which view we use... I dont think 3rd person view has any advantage.. If you ride 3rd person most of the time, you probably wont be as fast with onboard view..  Just down to practice I think..
For racing online, the biggest problem (not really a problem though  ) is different abilities.. Some players are all over the shop, wobbling around, some players are consistantly banging in laps on or close to the racing line.. Which makes life much more simple.

To be honest.. What's realistic about the onboard view in GPB anyway? on some bikes/tracks it just makes me dizzy lol. The cockpit swings around the bottom of the screen just like all the other bike games lol. X

[Stout Johnson]

But the physics stay the same no matter which view we use... I dont think 3rd person view has any advantage.. If you ride 3rd person most of the time, you probably wont be as fast with onboard view..  Just down to practice I think..

Practice helps a lot, but even after 3 years of riding onboard view only, I am still faster in 3rd person view. That is also true for other guys I know. It depends on the track, but in most you just have a much better perception of the turns and on when to hit the apex. You also have a slightly elevated view, which makes perveiving the line a bit easier. Seeing the rear wheel makes is it a bit easier to perceive the limit. In races you also have the big advantage of seeing what is happening left, right and even close behind you. That may be the biggest advantage of all.
Racing wise, if you have a mixed field, then those guys in 3rd person view will be all over the place, trying to overtake aggresively even when there is not really space to overtake. That often results in crashes (and heated discussions). When you have guys on 1st person view only, the races are just more fair (you only try overtakes when you have a clear shot) and also closer in terms of times. The onboard view only races just seemed more like realistic races to me.

To be honest.. What's realistic about the onboard view in GPB anyway?

Well, quite obviously you see it from the perspective you see it in real life. You should just not see what is happening left, right and behind you at the same time.

[Hawk]

Current barriers to a good on-board riding experience(in my opinion):
I think that the only problem with having a good experience with on-board views is simply the lack of feel and spatial awareness so that a rider is capable of making judgments about what is happening with the bike and other bikes around them.
A lot of that could be solved through a very good implementation of sound, and feel(through FFB on a controller). The only thing that can never be simulated viably is the forces(G-forces) you get while riding a bike, but even those can be substituted with feedback through the FFB in your controller to a certain degree.

Using a free-look system demonstrates spatial awareness problems in an obvious way - For example: When you come into a hairpin bend and look left into the apex you loose view(and therefore awareness) of your bike, and because there is no feedback to the position of the bike relative to the track and also no feel of what the bike is doing underneath you in this circumstance, it is very easy, when viewing to the front again to find that you have either overshot or undershot your racing line through the corner; and that's if your lucky.... a lot of times you will more than likely end-up crashing.

So if I were Piboso; as soon as I'd finished all the major development implementations and and sorted the bugs, I would then concentrate on implementing very VERY good sound and FFB systems; and they have to be superb systems to come anywhere near giving the feedback that a bike rider needs(for 1st person view riding) when lacking real-life vital feedback such as G-forces, feel and sound that are vital for a rider to keep aware of what the bike is doing underneath them.

Just my thoughts on barriers to an excellent 1st person view riding experience. 

Hawk.

[CapeDoctor]

a big + 1 from me, Hawk.

[C21]

Speaking of this, it would be really good to have nice onboard views coming with the mod bikes. I remember Juju's Suzuki GSXR and the Ducati GP12 - they were real masterpieces because they put so much love in the cockpit design. But I really see the argument of C21 too - he is a physics modder, and he is doing a superb job in this area. But maybe some talented gfx guy would be willing to contribute? For me a bike mod is not really complete until the cockpit view is also nicely done.

Fully agree on that.
A bike mod is only complete if it works 100% in 3rd and 1st person view with full working instruments.
I really like full working dash but it´s even more complex to do that. If i knew more about that stuff i surely develop all bike mods including working dash. But our Team has a member for that stuff and we will try to fully serve a 100% onboard view experience.
I´m always disappointed if a bike is beautifully modelled and when switching to 1st person you look at a nonworking dash or a dash used from another bike.

You all scream and shout about wanting a real simulator and then you ride in 3rd person because its easier or woteva

I tried 1st person more than you imagine but i really don´t like the way it is simulated.
As i race(d) in real life the simulated onboard view (without Track IR AND the lack of full force feedback!) is totally inaceptable for me.
Hawk describes the situation 100%. I fully agree on that exellent statment!

I had countless crashs in onboard view and i do not use it anymore (only for a few seconds to check and adjust the rider view on the mod bikes).. i really hate to ride in 1st person with the way it is simulated right now.
For comparison: i only crashed two times in real life on a race track and never on the street...so in my opinion i know how to ride a bike in real life (1st person) but i never get comfortable with 1st person in every motorcycle game a played (gp500, SBK00, SBK01). Maybe this will change with Oculus Rift 

To be honest.. What's realistic about the onboard view in GPB anyway? on some bikes/tracks it just makes me dizzy lol. The cockpit swings around the bottom of the screen just like all the other bike games lol.

+100000

[HornetMaX]

I use 3rd person 99% of the time. Seeing how the bike behaves is just a big plus for me (I know, I'm a nerd).

It's a general opinion that 3rd person is faster and I quite agree: it allows you to know more precisely where your wheels are and I'd tend to think (but i have no proof of that) that it's easier for your brain to follow what's happening visually in 3rd person than in 1st person. In some turns however (slow tight ones), 1st person seems kinda easier.

I don't think 1st person view is unusable: as often with GPB, practice practice practice. There are two 1st person views: the "real" one and an additional one that "moves around a bit less" and that is probably easier to get accustomed to if you're making the jump from 3rd person.

+1 for the modders taking the time to make 1st person view working fine (nice 3d model, dash/instruments working, etc).

And if you're into 1st person view, you really want to try out head tracking (e.g. EDtracker + opentrack): it really feels better.

Guys around here are even discussing about whether launch control or a sound slider should be made available or not - when it is allowed to use 3rd person view  that just does not make sense. I hope there will be a change in policy in terms of view some time (even if I know the chances are slim).

Do you realize that if 1st person view is enforced, out of 100 potential new customers, GPB will probably lose 90 or more ?
Don't get me wrong, I do see your point and if 1st person was the only alternative, I'd be using it. But ...

If we want to promote 1st person, on top of the "1st person view only" events, maybe one possibility is to have GPB track records (on GPB stats pages, on Ali's Best Laps service) separated for 1st and 3rd person. This implies some simple changes: GPB has to decide if a lap was done in 1st or 3rd person view and send out the information in the live timing and to the GPB records server.

[Napalm Nick]

I do believe that idea was discussed in some depth this year,  but it didn't make a stealthy silent entry into B7. Maybe what that needs is a dedicated wish list post. Hmmmmmmm........

[h106frp]

It would be nice to be able to have an option that lets the client side choose to 'lock' the view as either onboard or 3rd person during a session rather than just have the server side 'hardcore' option then this info could be transmitted with the timing data.

It would be interesting to compare the different view laptimes statistically 

I do use the head tracker exclusively now so i am freed of the 'wildly swinging view' problem, i just look where i choose and it works very well in B7, really do not have a problem with orientation   

Trying to get an update on EDtracker wireless, hopefully it will be available soon;)

[HornetMaX]

It would be nice to be able to have an option that lets the client side choose to 'lock' the view as either onboard or 3rd person during a session rather than just have the server side 'hardcore' option

Uh, not sure I understand what you mean: we don't need it on client side. On client side you just chose your view (if the server allows you to do so).
Then, if during a lap you use 3rd person for even only 1sec, GPB flags the lap as done in "3rd person" and sends the lap time and the lap's view type out to the stats servers.

[h106frp]

I just think to be a 'valid' first person lap the option needs to be locked in to the session to prevent any 'cheating'.

This would also allow valid third and first person hot lap times (not for races) on a normal server session without the need for dedicated hardcore only sessions. 

[HornetMaX]

I just think to be a 'valid' first person lap the option needs to be locked in to the session to prevent any 'cheating'.

This would also allow valid third and first person hot lap times (not for races) on a normal server session without the need for dedicated hardcore only sessions.

If what I'm suggesting is implemented, there's no way of cheating.

Case 1: server with no view restriction (or offline session)
You can use whichever view you want. If a lap starts in 1st person and during the whole lap the view is not changed, GPB considers this as a "1st person" lap.
In any other case (lap starting in 3rd person or starting in 1st person but changing to 3rd somewhere) the lap is considered "3rd person".

Case 2: server that enforces 1st person
Here of course you are forced into 1st person, no way to use 3rd. GPB can still determine if the lap is 1st or 3rd person as described above (of course it will end up always in 1st person laps).

So an hotlap server will not enforce 1st person, but lap times for 1st and 3rd person will be kept separate. Servers will only enforce 1st person for event that absolutely want no 3rd person players.

No way to cheat, no need for a client side lock option.

[h106frp]

I just think to be a 'valid' first person lap the option needs to be locked in to the session to prevent any 'cheating'.

This would also allow valid third and first person hot lap times (not for races) on a normal server session without the need for dedicated hardcore only sessions.

If what I'm suggesting is implemented, there's no way of cheating.

Case 1: server with no view restriction (or offline session)
You can use whichever view you want. If a lap starts in 1st person and during the whole lap the view is not changed, GPB considers this as a "1st person" lap.
In any other case (lap starting in 3rd person or starting in 1st person but changing to 3rd somewhere) the lap is considered "3rd person".

Case 2: server that enforces 1st person
Here of course you are forced into 1st person, no way to use 3rd. GPB can still determine if the lap is 1st or 3rd person as described above (of course it will end up always in 1st person laps).

So an hotlap server will not enforce 1st person, but lap times for 1st and 3rd person will be kept separate. Servers will only enforce 1st person for event that absolutely want no 3rd person players.

No way to cheat, no need for a client side lock option.

  Suggest this concept goes to the wishlist to be considered by PB

[Napalm Nick]

Yes and to be fair it has also been discussed before not that long ago ( I'm turning into Jamoz).
For me I would like all the options in the offline settings to be individually selectable in the server dedicated.ini.

At the moment there aren't enough selectable options.

[HornetMaX]

Yes and to be fair it has also been discussed before not that long ago ( I'm turning into Jamoz).

I don't remember a discussion about separating stats for 1st/3rd person view ... but maybe it's just my memory failing miserably.

For me I would like all the options in the offline settings to be individually selectable in the server dedicated.ini.

At the moment there aren't enough selectable options.

Example ?