Hi everyone.
I have made a new and modified physics file for the 500cc 2-stroke bikes..which is in a beta test stage at the moment.
What I have tried to improve are the handling characteristics to allow the 500cc bikes to turn in to corners more quickly and to hold a tighter line once in the corner. Engine and gearbox characteristics remain exactly as before however. What I have done is lightened the whole bike and changed the suspension and geometry settings in the physics cfg file. Also I have improved the aero effect to allow the bikes to reach a slightly higher top-speed. Acceleration is slightly better as well I think. So the bikes are reaching higher speeds at the end of long straights.
Main modification though as I say is to the handling and more specifically an improved turn in effect and the ability to hold a tighter line once in the corner. I personally found it a little difficult with the original physics to achieve a desired turn in rate and then to maintain a tight line through the bend(s). I think there are also some benefits in braking control because of the reduced weight on the front end.
Anyway myself and BOBR6 84 have now tested my modified physics model and it seems to work quite well.
My question is would anyone else like to test it at this early prototype stage?
I hope no one minds me modding the "varese" physics but I just wanted to experiment to achieve quicker steering and a more agile handling effect. What I suppose I have tried to achieve is to mimic the quicker steering effect that I experience with the physics model in the gp500 pc game which is a game I play regularly and which I greatly enjoy. But please bear in mind that my physics model for the 500s in gpbikes is very much at an early beta "test" stage.
Is there anyway I can upload it somewhere so people can try it if they are interested? Alternatively I could maybe e-mail it to someone who could upload it to a download site that you guys use?
Anyway, just thought I would let you guys know. I plan to eventually produce slightly different variations on my physics model for the nsr, rgv500, cagiva and yamaha yzr 500 to reflect the differences between the bikes in real life.
grT :)
If you have modified only the .geom or .cfg file, you can just show them here as "Code", they are tiny files.
Otherwise, Mega is your friend (zip everything in a single file).
MaX.
O.K. it's only the cfg file but to make it easier for anyone who wants to give it a go I have uploaded it to MEGA.
It's a work in progress but I would be interested in what people make of this..
Just install within the "Honda_500_NSR_95" bike folder having backed up your original cfg file.
https://mega.co.nz/#!WhJRXAjT!3JmESgf1H3hT5iQYKqweW1XUxN86N-ct43KfA4-C5ik
grT ;)
Forgot to mention my "test" track when modding these physics was Silverstone. So maybe try it there first?
I also tested it out round Cadwell Park also & personally found it a bit easier lining up for the "jump" before the mountain.
grT
you reduced the chassis mass to the weight of a 250cc 2stroke ???
Yep I know. Deliberately. I'm interested in the final feel of the bike on the track. For me with the original physics the bike feels a little bit too heavy and clumsy. It has trouble holding a tight line on some bends. At least it does for me anyway. In real life as we all know the 500cc grand prix machine were extremely light and "flickable" and held tight lines through corners.
The guys used to flick them around at will. Kevin Schwantz being a prime example of what was possible on a 500 grand prix bike.
The 1994 Cagiva C594 weighed 130 kg
The last of the 250cc Grand Prix bikes weighed about 100 kg I think.
I could and probably will add some extra weight back on to close the gap but I am experimenting in order to to achieve a certain character of handling characteristics.
That is my main aim.
As a matter of interest have you tried out the physics?
grT :)
Hmmm ... that's not the proper way to do this kind of things ...
MaX.
Like i said before,I'd rather see and feel a convincing bike with unrealistic physic files, then a bike that matches all the real numbers but feels like a turd on wheels. I couldn't care less if the weight is wrong or whatever. Right now the 500 feels like a garbage truck and it was about time someone jumped on it. I'll try your files when i get home Tracey...
Why not Max?
Isn't it the end result that counts?
Talking of statistics for a moment I am a bit surprised that with the standard physics the 500s struggle a bit to reach the mid 170 mph mark on the back straight at Silverstone? Should they not be able to reach a higher top speed?
I agree that with my modified physics the 500s are perhaps too wheelie prone. Can I reduce that tendency within the cfg file..I notice there is a "wheelinghelp" adjustment in the cfg file. By adjusting this would this reduce that tendency to wheelie in the higher gears?
I am just sharing this with you guys for your interest. However my own personal opinion is that turn-in and the ability to maintain a tighter line through certain corners is arguably more realistic with the modified physics. Having said all that if people don't like the physics then of course I will just make use of it when playing offline.
grT :)
If it makes it more playable got to be worth a try the 500 is to much of a handful for us lesser mortals.
Remember that 500 is on different tires.....(really old tires)......that's why you feel that "maintain a tighter line through certain corners" is hard.
Did a few laps on Victoria . Back to back Test. Bike is now 10-12km/h faster on the straight.
But Wheels up to 5th gear. Really nervous to Ride compared to the Std file.
I'm Not the approptiate Person to judge the 500cc because i did Not Ride the 500cc Bikes that much.
I would raise the Chassis Mass up and also the Engine inertia. Don't know why you changed it, was the Engine response Not aggressive enough ?
Steering wheigt is drastically reduced to 1.45.....hui.
Think you made a mistake at the rake angle Setting....1.125... The Setting is connected to the geom file ;)
You reduced the Masses but Not accordingly to the inertias.
BTW: you've got two Times "driveline values" in the cfg ;)
Only a Short Look at the cfg and a few laps...don't have more Time yet....
Quote from: Abigor on June 02, 2014, 05:35:34 PM
Remember that 500 is on different tires.....(really old tires)......that's why you feel that "maintain a tighter line through certain corners" is hard.
In my honest opinion I do not think it has much to do with the physics model for the older tyres. In my own opinion the problem is not grip, or lack of it, I think the problem is one of weight and steering geometry. Having experimented with the physics model I am personally now convinced of that fact.
I think if you stuck stickier (or modern) tyres on the 500cc bike you would still have the same problem going on in the background. That my take on this anyway.
Old tyres or new tyres the physics do not feel right to me in terms of the agility of the 500cc bikes and their ability to hold a line. If it was the tyres then you would have slides trying to maintain a tight line. That is not what is happening. The geometry & weight is what I think is causing the oversteer.
This is just my opinion but having modded the physics I can really feel the difference now.
Proof is in the pudding for me..
grT :)
Just tried it and now it feels just weird. Yes it changes lean angle & direction slightly faster, but corner speed seems even lower then with the std bike, so that results in going wide in almost every corner unless you massively brake it into that corner and reduce speed so much you lose your whole momentum.
I think a feeling similar to the 250 would suit a 500 more. Just slightly more weight and a little less grip due to the older tires. Right now the standard 500 physics do not represent the light & agile bikes from my memory :)
Quote from: Abigor on June 02, 2014, 05:35:34 PM
Remember that 500 is on different tires.....(really old tires)......that's why you feel that "maintain a tighter line through certain corners" is hard.
+1
and then the tires of the 90's did not allow lean angles more than 50/55 degrees. Piboso knows what he does ;)
i just needs some work not just weight reduction
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 02, 2014, 04:47:16 PM
Why not Max?
Because.
GPb tries hard to simulate the appropriate physics. Granted, there are times were you can tweak the values (compared to the real ones) in order to get what you want.
But the comments C21 has made are scary: front head 1.45 Kg ? Change mass without changing the associated inertia ?
About the weight: I really really doubt Piboso gave the varese a wrong weight. I'm ready to bet a kidney (plus what's left of Jamoz brain) on that.
If you feel the bike is heavy, the problem is somewhere else (assuming there is a problem).
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 02, 2014, 04:47:16 PM
I agree that with my modified physics the 500s are perhaps too wheelie prone. Can I reduce that tendency within the cfg file..I notice there is a "wheelinghelp" adjustment in the cfg file. By adjusting this would this reduce that tendency to wheelie in the higher gears?
The wheeling help is an electronic anti-wheeling: I don't think you had that on 500-era bikes.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 02, 2014, 06:21:49 PM
In my honest opinion I do not think it has much to do with the physics model for the older tyres. In my own opinion the problem is not grip, or lack of it, I think the problem is one of weight and steering geometry. Having experimented with the physics model I am personally now convinced of that fact.
I think if you stuck stickier (or modern) tyres on the 500cc bike you would still have the same problem going on in the background. That my take on this anyway.
You could easily verify that: put the 990 tires on the varese and try.
You seem to be bothered a lot about the bike agility: have you tried to switch direct steer ON and see how it feels ? To some, having direct steer OFF is just a no go: the bike feels ultra heavy.
A final advice: in order to modify successfully the physics of a bike (unless you're only changing some trivial parameters) you have to have some basic knowledge of mechanics and physics plus some bike specific knowledge. It is my understanding you're graduating: if it isn't something like literature or asian civilizations, I can point you to a few very interesting books that could give you the bases.
MaX.
Quote from: C21 on June 02, 2014, 06:20:54 PM
Did a few laps on Victoria . Back to back Test. Bike is now 10-12km/h faster on the straight.
But Wheels up to 5th gear. Really nervous to Ride compared to the Std file.
I'm Not the approptiate Person to judge the 500cc because i did Not Ride the 500cc Bikes that much.
I would raise the Chassis Mass up and also the Engine inertia. Don't know why you changed it, was the Engine response Not aggressive enough ?
Steering wheigt is drastically reduced to 1.45.....hui.
Think you made a mistake at the rake angle Setting....1.125... The Setting is connected to the geom file ;)
You reduced the Masses but Not accordingly to the inertias.
BTW: you've got two Times "driveline values" in the cfg ;)
Only a Short Look at the cfg and a few laps...don't have more Time yet....
Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate that. I'll tidy up the file a bit.
This was obviously an experiment. I personally like the fact the bike is more nervous to ride. It's personal preference I think but these bikes did have a tendency to being nervous in real life.
If you raise the chassis mass up it does seem to negate the effect of the quicker steering responses and the ability to track tighter lines through the corners. I experimented with that earlier. But I do hear what you are saying. Loud and clear.
I actually didn't mean to change the engine inertia at all. That's is a "typo" on my part and nothing more. I'll put that right now. I will also get rid of the extra "driveline values". Another typo that has crept in I'm afraid.
"Steering wheigt is drastically reduced to 1.45.....hui."Again I tried this to obtain a quicker response in the steering. If this is badly wrong or unnecessary I will change it back.
I agree main problem is an increased tendency to wheelie. Having said that the original physics were quite wheelie prone. But I agree not to the same degree. As I mentioned in my above post is there anyway to calm this tendency down other than increasing weight?
Finally would just say my "test" track for this was Silverstone (and Cadwell) so I'm sure faults/problems may well and probably will crop up at the other tracks..
This is the first time I have even opened up a physics file on gpbikes. I am a complete novice with editing the gpbikes' physics files. I can only hold mu hands up to that. ;)
But this was an experiment on my part to see what I could maybe achieve if I did.
In truth I think I am probably not the only person who thinks the gp500 bikes are a bit sluggish in their handling. I am interested in investigating if the feel of the 500s can be improved a bit.
I don't want to tread on anybody's toes to any extent whatsoever however in doing this. I just feel that the gp500 physics might be able to evolve a bit in a positive direction. That's all.
grT :)
Hi max :) nice reply ;)
Looking deeper into the file i really Wonder...
You adjusted the Whole Front and Rear Suspension New.
Dou you know what the values are about? E.g. Setting0=1500,1600?
What does both values represent?
Btw @piboso
Could it be that the Rebound values of the Front Suspension are messed up?
Setting 4 is equal to Setting 9 and the values are Not in a raising Order!
Just noticed that while Comparing the Files :)
Edit:
@tracey
The physics of GPB is Not that Easy....you have to know how it Works....but i started as you did ;)
I agree that the Wheely tendency is still too much especially After upshift. You have to do both geom and cfg to reduce that but it's still to much.
I also agree with max that direct lean on makes a Huge difference in Direktion changes...for my Taste it is too quick...i Drive it Off.
Quote from: JamoZ on June 02, 2014, 06:35:27 PM
Just tried it and now it feels just weird. Yes it changes lean angle & direction slightly faster, but corner speed seems even lower then with the std bike, so that results in going wide in almost every corner unless you massively brake it into that corner and reduce speed so much you lose your whole momentum.
I think a feeling similar to the 250 would suit a 500 more. Just slightly more weight and a little less grip due to the older tires. Right now the standard 500 physics do not represent the light & agile bikes from my memory :)
I think that is valued feedback JamoZ. Clearly this is a first blush by me and nothing more.
I completely agree that a feeling more similar to the 250 would suit the 500. That's the way to go with this I think.
As regards engineering knowledge I have to confess I am not qualified in that respect. But this is also about the seat of the pants feel in the 500cc bike as JamoZ says.. I think you address both aspects with this sort of thing. In real life if left solely to an engineer it wouldn't be right and arguably if left to the rider alone it wouldn't be right either.
Anyway, thanks for the feedback everyone.
grT :)
Quote(plus what's left of Jamoz brain)
Hey! Leave me out of this, i did nothing wrong.
(http://media2.giphy.com/media/BBkKEBJkmFbTG/200.gif)
Anway, i don`t care about numbers, tires, bolts, nuts, flywheels, weight and pink teddybear`s. Just that this basically describes my whole 500cc experience in this game :
(http://www.thosefunnypictures.com/resize.php?file=pictures/6059/Funny_Pictures_6059.jpg)
I'm curious. Is it about how Piboso's 500cc handles, or wanting it to handle more like your last motorcycle simulation that you have played for years? Just a thought. ;)
Quote from: C21 on June 02, 2014, 06:57:22 PM
Hi max :) nice reply ;)
Looking deeper into the file i really Wonder...
You adjusted the Whole Front and Rear Suspension New.
Dou you know what the values are about? E.g. Setting0=1500,1600?
What does both values represent?
Btw @piboso
Could it be that the Reling values of the Front Suspension are messed up?
Setting 4 is equal to Setting 9 and the values are Not in a raising Order!
Just noticed that while Comparing the Files :)
Edit:
@tracey
The physics of GPB is Not that Easy....you have to know how it Works....but i started as you did ;)
I agree that the Wheely tendency is still too much especially After upshift. You have to do both geom and cfg to reduce that but it's still to much.
I also agree with max that direct lean on makes a Huge difference in Direktion changes...for my Taste it is too quick...i Drive it Off.
Well the physics should work realistically in my opinion with direct lean off. I personally do not think that is the answer. All this arguably does is quicken something up which should have been quicker in the first place. It sort of masks the original problem. If indeed it is a problem. That's my honest take on this.
I wholeheartedly agree that gpbikes physics' are complicated. There's no denying that. But something in my opinion does not feel quite right with the original gp500 physics.
I suppose in a way me posting all this here is a way to gauge people's opinion on that subject. As I say I mean well in what I am trying to say here. I really do. I am not criticising anything. I am just trying to offer my own opinion that is all. Also you guys are very used to the gp500 physics. You are familiar with them. That can be a plus and a minus in some ways. Plus because you have a good understanding of the current physics model but maybe a minus because you have become comfortable with it?
That is all I am saying. I personally would love to see it evolve a bit further as I love the gp500 bikes.
grT :)
Quote from: C21 on June 02, 2014, 06:57:22 PM
Btw @piboso
Could it be that the Reling values of the Front Suspension are messed up?
Setting 4 is equal to Setting 9 and the values are Not in a raising Order!
Just noticed that while Comparing the Files :)
I don't see setting 4 equal to setting 9:
Damper
{
BumpThreshold = -0.05
Bump
{
setting0 = 1500, 1500
setting1 = 1600, 1500
setting2 = 1700, 1500
setting3 = 1800, 1500
setting4 = 1900, 1500
setting5 = 2000, 1500
setting6 = 2100, 1500
setting7 = 2200, 1500
setting8 = 2300, 1500
setting9 = 2400, 1500
setting10 = 2500, 1500
setting11 = 2600, 1500
setting12 = 2700, 1500
setting13 = 2800, 1500
setting14 = 2900, 1500
setting15 = 3000, 1500
}
BumpSetting = 7
ReboundThreshold = 0.05
Rebound
{
setting0 = 2500, 2500
setting1 = 2625, 2575
setting2 = 2750, 3100
setting3 = 4000, 3400
setting4 = 3000, 3700
setting5 = 5000, 4000
setting6 = 3250, 2500
setting7 = 3000, 2800
setting8 = 3500, 3100
setting9 = 4000, 3400
setting10 = 3750, 3700
setting11 = 3875, 4000
setting12 = 4000, 2500
setting13 = 4125, 2800
setting14 = 4250, 3100
setting15 = 5000, 4000
setting16 = 4500, 3700
setting17 = 5000, 4000
setting18 = 4750, 3850
setting19 = 4875, 3925
}
ReboundSetting = 7
}
The fact the values are not monotonic (front rebound) seems suspect, but we don't know exactly what they are (at least I don't). Piboso is our only hope. As always :)
MaX.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 02, 2014, 07:26:04 PM
Well the physics should work realistically in my opinion with direct lean off. I personally do not think that is the answer.
Direct lean off puts a filter between your joystick and the bike: if that filter is too "low-pass", you can have the best physics in the world behind, but the bike will feel slow.
Did you try it ?
MaX.
Quote from: Klax75 on June 02, 2014, 07:23:33 PM
I'm curious. Is it about how Piboso's 500cc handles, or wanting it to handle more like your last motorcycle simulation that you have played for years? Just a thought. ;)
I think that's a very valid comment. My honest answer is that I don't think the 500cc physics in terms of turn-in, "agility" and ability to hold a tight line are as reflective of real life as they could be.
That's all I'm saying. ;)
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 02, 2014, 07:32:21 PM
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 02, 2014, 07:26:04 PM
Well the physics should work realistically in my opinion with direct lean off. I personally do not think that is the answer.
Direct lean off puts a filter between your joystick and the bike: if that filter is too "low-pass", you can have the best physics in the world behind, but the bike will feel slow.
Did you try it ?
MaX.
Yes I have tried it Max. For me it is not the answer. It does quicken up steering but with a "trade-off" in how the return to upright is made etc. It's not for me I don't think.
I read the thread on the "direct leaners" club and I think I do have a feel for what you guys are saying though.
grT
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 02, 2014, 07:37:47 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 02, 2014, 07:32:21 PM
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 02, 2014, 07:26:04 PM
Well the physics should work realistically in my opinion with direct lean off. I personally do not think that is the answer.
Direct lean off puts a filter between your joystick and the bike: if that filter is too "low-pass", you can have the best physics in the world behind, but the bike will feel slow.
Did you try it ?
MaX.
Yes I have tried it Max. For me it is not the answer. It does quicken up steering but with a "trade-off" in how the return to upright is made etc. It's not for me I don't think.
OK, so you're essentially saying that direct steer ON solves the issue, but it has a side effect. Kind of proves the point I was trying to make.
I'm not a big big user of the 500, but what I recall of it it didn't look that hard to flick or steer (relative to the bikes of its era).
And again, getting the bike weight wrong would be so un-Piboseqsque I can't even imagine it.
This page (general information: I kinda like the girl on the top right corner):
http://www.fasterandfaster.net/2012/04/when-cagiva-went-gp-racing.html (http://www.fasterandfaster.net/2012/04/when-cagiva-went-gp-racing.html)
says the c594 was 130Kg.
In the .cfg file of the varese you have:
- chassis: 80
- steer: 10
- Front susp: 5
- Rear susp: 8
- Front tire: 12
- Rear rire: 15
That makes, guess what, 130Kg. OK, you have to add the discs (2 front @ 1.28 each carbon / 2.56 each steel + 0.77 for the rear), but we are there.
It also rates it at 300Kmh max speed. Notice that max speed depends of course on the gearing, so ...
Anyway it's nowhere close to the current 350+Kmh of a motogp.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 02, 2014, 08:01:55 PM
OK, so you're essentially saying that direct steer ON solves the issue, but it has a side effect. Kind of proves the point I was trying to make.
That's not what I said Max. What I said above was that in my opinion direct lean on "masks" the original problem. If indeed there is a problem.. ;)
Thanks for the additional info. That is useful to know.
I'm going to have another look at the cfg file and play a bit more with the values bearing in mind what you and others have pointed out to me.
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 02, 2014, 08:01:55 PM
I'm not a big big user of the 500, but what I recall of it it didn't look that hard to flick or steer (relative to the bikes of its era).
No surprise but I have to politely differ with you on that. The 500 grand prix bikes for their era and compared to the modern day for that matter, I believe were easier to flick and maintain a tight line on than they are simulated to be in gpbikes with the standard physics model. That's just my own personal opinion however. :)
Look I love gpbikes. I really do. But I cannot get away from the thought that there is something in the gp500 physics model in relation to turn-in and an ability to hold a tight line that could be improved upon. As much as I enjoy those 500s..
grT
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 02, 2014, 08:40:01 PM
Another thing worth pointing out is when you ride around the track on gpbikes sometimes it feels slow.. It all makes sense when you watch the replay though! ;)
That's a perception thing: the feeling of speed is pretty hard to reproduce on a screen, plenty of factors come into play.
I've recently tried Kart Racing Pro (thanks dibu !): made by Piboso, same graphics engine as GPB/WRS, but you just feel the speed much much more.
You can try the demo, you'll see what I mean.
MaX.
Yeah I agree!
Its like if u ride with 3rd person camera it may look slower than if you ride onboard etc.. Or it gives you the impression you could go faster through a turn but when onboard everything is at the right scale.. Feels faster being closer to the ground too..
O.K. I have corrected my mistakes and have added more weight. I'm still below the 130kg level but I have closed the gap back-up from the weight level I was at before.
But I am still being naughty! ;)
I think the inertia mistakes that I made may have contributed to the wheelies. Adding the extra weight has calmed this tendancy down also.
I am trying to emulate 250 geometry (or should I say suspension settings?) as you can tell from the cfg file.
It's noticeably better than my previous version. Just thought I would share this as I was the one who started all this and this is more of what I was after I think. :)
https://mega.co.nz/#!vo4FQI5L!BAootPcsEEn0SF_LmiWiLgymS2vjiTmNhycGVyQHFnI
@MAX
Quotesetting3 = 4000, 3400
setting4 = 3000, 3700
setting5 = 5000, 4000
setting6 = 3250, 2500
setting7 = 3000, 2800
setting8 = 3500, 3100
setting9 = 4000, 3400
Sorry, it was setting 3 and 9 :-)
If you compare the values of the Varese front suspension rebound to all the ones of the other bikes it it totally different!
And that´s why i assume that this is not correct.
On all other suspensions (front and rear) you have a fast raising 1st value and a slower rasing or steady 2nd value. The front rebound of the Varese is the only one which is different. But it´s still an Upside Down fork as on the other bikes. Bearing in mind that the basic physics for all bikes is the same why should it be different only on that one...it does not make sense.
QuoteYeah I agree!
Its like if u ride with 3rd person camera it may look slower than if you ride onboard etc.. Or it gives you the impression you could go faster through a turn but when onboard everything is at the right scale.. Feels faster being closer to the ground too..
+1
i ride in 3rd person only and if i try 1st person i always think----damn fast!!!!
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 02, 2014, 11:15:45 PM
Yeah I agree!
Its like if u ride with 3rd person camera it may look slower than if you ride onboard etc.. Or it gives you the impression you could go faster through a turn but when onboard everything is at the right scale.. Feels faster being closer to the ground too..
I ride helmet view, and I love it when I am hanging over the curbs. Only problem is when I take a moment to think "this looks cool!" I find my rider sliding on his butt soon after... lol
@tracey
Don´t get me wrong , i like the 500cc beasts but i´m more addicted to the GP250cc and 600ccWSS (both i´ve ridden in real life) and WSBK.
The problem of GPB is you have to focus on a few bikes to get really fast. In the beginning there were only a few but now there are so many bikes that i have to ride and test with the beloved ones first ;)
You can try to alter the physics to get near what you think should be close to real BUT you can´t change the basis of the GPB physics.
AND the basis will change with the new beta.
Bear in mind that there are several things on the physics many modders are not really satisfied with and can not be changed in the way the modders want right now. ;)
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 02, 2014, 08:40:37 PM
That's not what I said Max. What I said above was that in my opinion direct lean on "masks" the original problem. If indeed there is a problem.. ;)
OK then, but it just can't be as you are saying: direct lean ON removes a component, you can't mask something removing something. At best, it's direct lean OFF (which adds a component) that makes the problem appear.
Semantics apart, if the bike flicks OK with direct lean ON and is slow with direct lean OFF this means that the bike physics is OK, the problem lies in the control part (here we call it the "virtual rider", charged to convert your joypad output into the physics model inputs, i.e. steering torque and rider leaning left/right in our case). Changing the physics to solve that makes zero sense.
I give you a concrete example: you have a real bike with 100hp and a ride by wire system. The ride by wire is fucked up (MV-Agusta style), and when you open the throttle the bike revs up slowly. It's not the engine fault, it's the ride by wire fault: its output signal is too filtered, leading to delays and slow response.
Now, how do you fix this ? The good answer is: fix the damn ride by wire.
The bad answer (comparable to what you want to do with the 500 physics) is any of the following: get a more powerful engine, get an engine with reduced internal friction, get an engine with reduced rotating inertia, get a short throttle etc etc.
Quote from: C21 on June 03, 2014, 07:00:16 AM
Sorry, it was setting 3 and 9 :-)
Oh OK, my fault I didn't spot it. Definitely suspect then. Want to open a topic in the bugs section ?
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 03, 2014, 10:17:51 AM
Now, how do you fix this ? The good answer is: fix the damn ride by wire.
The bad answer (comparable to what you want to do with the 500 physics) is any of the following: get a more powerful engine, get an engine with reduced internal friction, get an engine with reduced rotating inertia, get a short throttle etc etc.
I agree with what you're saying Max. But to play devil's advocate for one moment if the other bikes in the gpbikes line-up, aside from the 500s, seem to exhibit better or arguably more realistic physics in terms of their ability to turn into a corner and hold a tighter line then one could argue that, notwithstanding any possible flaws that may exist within the "fly by wire" system, their ability to do so has its beneficial roots in the particular physics model of each of those other bikes concerned..
Is it not the same "filter" or "virtual rider" parameters that govern every bike in gpbikes?
So I guess what I was attempting to do with this was to adjust the gp500 physics model to compensate for this difference in behaviour, perceived or otherwise, between the 500cc bikes (i.e. the varese physics) and the other bikes in the "game".
Under the circumstances is that not arguably a logical thing to attempt to do?
What are your thoughts?
Surely if the "fly by wire" system or "filter", whatever you want to call it, was changed or modified then this would also have an influence and an effect on the behaviour and handling characteristics of the other bikes in the game?
Max, I am new to all of this and I bow to your superior knowledge. But I am if I am honest slightly confused by what you are saying in this respect in your post.
I am not trying to be difficult at all. I'm really not. I'm just trying to understand how all this stuff works.
Can you guide me a bit more on this?
grT :)
Quote from: C21 on June 03, 2014, 08:10:51 AM
@tracey
You can try to alter the physics to get near what you think should be close to real BUT you can´t change the basis of the GPB physics.
AND the basis will change with the new beta.
Bear in mind that there are several things on the physics many modders are not really satisfied with and can not be changed in the way the modders want right now. ;)
Thanks for that. I understand what you are saying. All I am doing really if I am honest is conducting an experiment with the gp500 physics. For my own interest and benefit really. To help me learn the basic principles of the gpbikes physics model.
I feel a bit like an excited puppy in a China shop doing this really if I am honest. Particularly doing this in public on this forum with the experienced modders in attendance. ;) But one thing I would say is that I am learning some very useful things.
I would just like to thank everyone, yourself and Max included, for bearing with me on this and showing me so much patience. I really appreciate it guys.
Sorry if I seem to be challenging anything that other people may be saying but I am in truth just trying to learn from you all. Anyway thanks again for everyone's help.
grT
I´ll take your hand and guide you to......
http://gpbikes-mods.wikia.com/wiki/GPBikes_mods_Wiki
....do you know that?
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 03, 2014, 12:01:16 PM
I agree with what you're saying Max. But to play devil's advocate for one moment if the other bikes in the gpbikes line-up, aside from the 500s, seem to exhibit better or arguably more realistic physics in terms of their ability to turn into a corner and hold a tighter line then one could argue that, notwithstanding any possible flaws that may exist within the "fly by wire" system, their ability to do so has its beneficial roots in the particular physics model of each of those other bikes concerned..
Is it not the same "filter" or "virtual rider" parameters that govern every bike in gpbikes?
Surely if the "fly by wire" system or "filter", whatever you want to call it, was changed or modified then this would also have an influence and an effect on the behaviour and handling characteristics of the other bikes in the game?
That's a very valid remark, but it doesn't alter the main thing: 500cc with direct lean ON flicks OK. And direct lean ON is the "neutral" setting: when you put direct lean OFF, you're actually adding something in between your stick and the (virtual) bike. I really wish Piboso would have called this setting differently: once he mentioned "lean help", which I think would be more appropriate, but it's likely too late to change. It also generate confusion with respect to direct steer.
To be honest to me any bike (especially the 125) feels like a truck in terms of flicking left/right if direct lean is not ON.
We've all discussed this to lengths (before your arrival I mean) and it is clear that it is a personal preference. Most people stick to direct lean OFF because that's the default setting and this is how they started playing the game. Once you play 2 weeks with direct lean OFF (or ON), then there's no return to direct lean ON (or OFF): your brain is so accustomed to the kind of response one of the two gives that the other looks plain weird. I personally took the time to go from direct lean ON to OFF and to ON again (each time playing at least a month with each setting).
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 03, 2014, 12:01:16 PM
Max, I am new to all of this and I bow to your superior knowledge.
You shouldn't: superior knowledge is something to be shared, not to be shown around in order to have people bowing to. And in this specific case, willingness and some time will bring almost anybody to what I (and others here around) know about this stuff: it's really not that much and surely far less than what Piboso knows.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 03, 2014, 12:01:16 PM
But I am if I am honest slightly confused by what you are saying in this respect in your post.
The key message is: GPB allows for multiple control strategies. You have direct lean ON/OFF and you have Auto rider lean ON/OFF (without speaking of direct steer).
You are using one of these control strategies and you're saying: the bike does not flick quick enough, let's change the physics.
At the same time, with other control strategies, the bike already flicks as it should.
[/end of key message]
I'd also add that even if nobody here ever rode a 990, we probably have much more information on this kind of bikes compared to what we have about the 500cc ones, including memories of stuff these bikes were or were not able to do.
Personally, when I was watching the 500c bikes (and I was old enough to understand a bit of it, as I'm now 40 yrs old) I was constantly telling myself: "Look at these crazy guys, hanging out of their bikes like mad, leaning to incredible angles defying gravity !! This is incredible, this is impossible !!".
Now I watch a MotoGP bikes do nearly 10 more degrees of leaning and Marquez (and others) hanging off from their bikes in a way that makes Doohan style look as if he wasn't hanging out at all.
That's not to argue the value of 500 bikes vs modern bikes or 500-era riders vs contemporary riders. It's just to underline that sometimes memories are a bit biased.
But in the end, feel absolutely free to continue playing with the physics and to show here what you've done: it wasn't (and isn't) my intention at all to put you off from that.
Just be aware that making a proper physics is not as easy as it seems, especially if you work alone: out of 10 riders, 8 have probably a different riding style each, hence their appreciation of a give physics can be very different.
And if you lack the vary basic notions behind all this, the chances of blundering somewhere are huge. We've witnessed this in the past :)
MaX.
Well Max I have to say you are 100% correct in what you are saying..
I am now 100% convinced that the physics model for the gp500 bikes is fine. The reason I am saying this is that I plugged in an old Microsoft Precision Racing Wheel that I had stored with me and to my surprise it was recognised by my windows 7 gamer pc. I didn't think it would work with Windows 7 but to my pleasant surprise it does..
It has transformed the feel of the game. Having calibrated it under the gpbikes settings I tried it with the NSR500 Honda and it works perfectly. Not only that but I can now vouch for the fact that the gp500 physics model is fine. The bike turns in nicely and it holds a nice line through the corners. I didn't really want to use a steering wheel but with "direct lean" on it works perfectly. I just need to fine tune the input settings for the wheel but for my personal preference but otherwise it's a great solution to the problem I was encountering.
The control with the wheel is really nice to be honest and is much better than I thought it would be. So in a way I'm a very happy bunny indeed!
So I agree the bottom line here is with the "filter" not with the game physics or with the specific "varese" physics for the 500cc bikes. In fact with the wheel the "varese" physics now seem very impressive to me indeed.
This has transformed the game for me. I'm now a member of the direct lean club but to my surprise not with my xbox controller but with a steering wheel.
Thanks for all your help and advice Max. I really appreciate it. :)
grT
Quote from: C21 on June 03, 2014, 12:23:02 PM
I´ll take your hand and guide you to......
http://gpbikes-mods.wikia.com/wiki/GPBikes_mods_Wiki
....do you know that?
Thanks C21 I had seen this but I am now going to have a more careful read through for my reference. Although as per my post above I have now found quite a surprising but very effective solution to my woes..
grT ;)
Hmm..maybe i should try One of my Logitech G25 with Pedals.....as i read your Last Statement with the MPRW?
Still using the XBox Controller because Most of the guys and Girl did :)
Of you still would like to modify physics and questions about Feel Free to ask, Most of the Time you will get an answer ;)
I see the logic in using a wheel.. I couldnt do it personally, wouldnt feel right after using the xbox pad for so long..
I think the only thing stopping the bike from flicking left/right quickly and smooth is the handlebars shaking from the virtual rider.. Which is realistic in my opinion! I still think an adjustable steering damper would sort that out.. As it would and does help in real life..
In all seriousness I would definitely give it a go C21. It removes the "block" to the physics completely. I have been playing with the wheel this evening and for me it feels like a completely different game now. It's brilliant to now experience the true physics as they were intended to be in the "game".
I am so happy with this now. It's a revelation for me..and I am not exaggerating!
gpbikes, with the benefit of the wheel, reminds me a lot of the gp500 pc game. There are definite echos for me of the gp500 game in the way gpbikes plays and feels. But PiBoSo has taken the concept of the gp500 game to an entirely new and much higher level. But it does feel strangely familiar.. I played gp500 using a wheel for years just to explain.
Also with the wheel I think you have a bit more accuracy in running up to the edge of the kerbs and track edges..which is a nice bonus. I can't keep off it now!
grT ;)
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 03, 2014, 08:03:12 PM
I see the logic in using a wheel.. I couldnt do it personally, wouldnt feel right after using the xbox pad for so long..
I think the only thing stopping the bike from flicking left/right quickly and smooth is the handlebars shaking from the virtual rider.. Which is realistic in my opinion! I still think an adjustable steering damper would sort that out.. As it would and does help in real life..
All I can say Bob is that it is now flicking in and holding lines beautifully. But it is a subtly different style of "riding". You cannot rotate the wheel back and forth as quickly as you can flick a thumbstick.. In some ways it's a smoother style if that makes sense. Ideally I would prefer to be able use a joypad with similar results in the game though.
I think in truth to rectify things properly for joypad users the "filter" needs to looked at carefully by someone and modified slightly. In my honest opinion.
grT ;)
The thing is though im not so interested in using direct lean or anything.. I honestly think by watching the bike on the screen the reactions of the bike/rider are really good when flicking left/right with direct lean off!
When you pull the bike up, the virtual rider puts pressure on the bars so the front wheel is moving left/right which will stop the bike from going left/right quickly!
Another example.. Phillip island last corner entering the straight, left hander bike is cranked over, as you go over the brow the front end lifts! If the bike is still leant over and the handlebars are wobbling from the virtual rider, when the front wheel touches the ground at a slight angle you get a tankslap and sometimes its difficult to pull the bike upright!
Realistic!
Doesnt direct lean just ignore these physics?
I honestly think a steering damper (adjustable) will work!
I am still getting those effects I think Bob with "direct lean" on.
Isn't the "direct lean" aspect to this just a filter placed between the controller input and the physics engine which activates when direct lean is turned off which then filters the controller input from a joypad (or similar) to the physics engine? i.e. with direct lean off the filter modulates and modifies the rate of controller input from say a joypad to the physics engine to allow the joypad to work more properly in theory with the game? So the filter adjusts controller input from a joypad to suit the game? I think that's the theory anyway. As I understand it.
So all elements & effects in the gameplay itself should still be there I think. (Notwithstanding whatever "rider lean" on or off setting you are running or whether or not you are running with "direct steer" in the game).
I think we are talking only of a filter to controller input here. When talking about the "direct lean" off setting. Or at least that is my understanding..
grT :)
Im not sure.. When I tried direct lean the bike tips in/turns straight away regardless of what is happening with the bike. Usually ending with a crash!
With Direct lean off, if I push the stick to turn/lean and the bike isnt ready.. Nothing happens! Or delayed response best said..
Oh O.K. I see what you mean now..
Again all I can say is that with direct lean on when playing with a steering wheel I think the same factors apply as you describe when setting up the bike for a corner. I could be wrong though. But it feels the same if not very similar to me..
I think the controller joypad / direct lean on/off aspect is proving to be quite a subject for debate on these boards..that's for sure! ;)
I think perhaps others more experienced than I am on the "game" can probably answer your point on this much better than I can. I need more time with the steering wheel and more time on the game in general to comment accurately in all honesty.
"Midge"
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 03, 2014, 05:33:17 PM
Well Max I have to say you are 100% correct in what you are saying..
I have to admit I do like when messages start like that :)
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 03, 2014, 05:33:17 PM
I am now 100% convinced that the physics model for the gp500 bikes is fine. The reason I am saying this is that I plugged in an old Microsoft Precision Racing Wheel that I had stored with me and to my surprise it was recognised by my windows 7 gamer pc. I didn't think it would work with Windows 7 but to my pleasant surprise it does..
It has transformed the feel of the game. Having calibrated it under the gpbikes settings I tried it with the NSR500 Honda and it works perfectly. Not only that but I can now vouch for the fact that the gp500 physics model is fine. The bike turns in nicely and it holds a nice line through the corners. I didn't really want to use a steering wheel but with "direct lean" on it works perfectly. I just need to fine tune the input settings for the wheel but for my personal preference but otherwise it's a great solution to the problem I was encountering.
The control with the wheel is really nice to be honest and is much better than I thought it would be. So in a way I'm a very happy bunny indeed!
So I agree the bottom line here is with the "filter" not with the game physics or with the specific "varese" physics for the 500cc bikes. In fact with the wheel the "varese" physics now seem very impressive to me indeed.
This has transformed the game for me. I'm now a member of the direct lean club but to my surprise not with my xbox controller but with a steering wheel.
I think we do have a few others playing with wheels: if it feels OK for you, then it's all good.
Now for the reason Direct Lean ON feels OK with the wheel and less so with the joypad: with a wheel your movements will be slower compared to a joypad. because of the wheel inertia and because of the movement amplitude (and nature): it's much easier to flick your thumb quickly than to steer left right quickly. In fact, even with a joystick (a real one) your movements will be slower).
I suggest you to do the following experiment: play 1 month with the wheel, just to give your brain enough time to forget how GPB feels on a joypad with direct lean OFF (the setting you're accustomed too right now). In a month, try again to play with the joypad but with Direct Lean ON and get back with your impressions.
I could bet that in a month time, joypad + direct lean ON will no longer look as terrible to you as it looks right now.
With the joypad you CAN be as smooth as you're with the wheel: you just ... well, have to be smooth and not bang it left/right in 0.05 seconds.
If you want to bang the stick left/right as fast as you can and not fall, then you have to turn direct lean OFF :)
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 03, 2014, 05:33:17 PM
Thanks for all your help and advice Max. I really appreciate it. :)
Thanks to you. That service will be charged 250 GBP per hour spent writing messages (+ VAT). Please send your address for the invoice.
If you don't want to pay, well too bad. Send the address anyway if possible, I can try to sell it to Jamoz for even more.
MaX.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 03, 2014, 09:00:21 PM
Another example.. Phillip island last corner entering the straight, left hander bike is cranked over, as you go over the brow the front end lifts! If the bike is still leant over and the handlebars are wobbling from the virtual rider, when the front wheel touches the ground at a slight angle you get a tankslap and sometimes its difficult to pull the bike upright!
Realistic!
Doesnt direct lean just ignore these physics?
No, not at all. These things are in the physical model of GPB, they don't come from direct lean.
I'll try to provide a simple explanation of what an input filter does: let's take the
smooth option you can apply on any channel (e.g. front brake).
Let's assume you have the front brake on one of the pad's triggers and that it has a 0-100 range.
If I have no smooth and I press the trigger ultra quickly, it's output will go from 0 to 100 almost instantly: if you graph the signal evolution against time you have (almost) what is called a step: 0 until a given time, 100 after that time.
If you activate the
smooth option and press the trigger just as quick as before, the joypad output will still be the "step" we have seen, but this step will be fed into a filter (typically some sort of lowpass, can be a simple linear or something more complex) that will smooth it. This means that the sudden jump (0 --> 100) will be smoothed to something more progressive, like this:
(http://i.stack.imgur.com/A4710.png)
The blue line is the step (unsmoothed), the green line is the smoothed step. So with smooth off, what goes into the GPB physics is the blue line, while with smooth on what goes in is the green line. Now, most people react to this saying "Well, the filter is all good: if I push the trigger too quickly, it will smooth it out". That's not entirely true as any filter will typically introduce a delay. Look at the graph above and imagine you want to brake up to a value of 10 (y axis). You do want to maximum brake. With no smoothing, you have it instantly. With smoothing, you reach 9 after 2.5 seconds (values here are unrelated to GPB). So you can see you have a delay. The delay depends on the "amount of filtering" and on the filter precise algorithm, but some delay is inevitable.
With steering/leaning the things are more complex. The basics are: in GPB your "lean" stick dictates the
target lean angle, i.e. the bike's lean angle you'd like to have.
When you push the stick right up to a given point, let's say 50% of the stick maximum range:
- the stick output is translated into a target lean angle
- the target lean angle is fed into the virtual rider: it will essentially compute the torque to be applied to the handlebars (and the rider movements, if not manual)
- the computed handlebars torque is fed into the bike's physics model, to be integrated in time
Now already point 1 is tricky as the computation of the target lean angle keeps into account many factors: it knows the max theoretical lean angle the bike could have in the current conditions (that's something tough !) and it scales what your're asking with respect to that. This is a gigantic help: it explains why direct steering is so hard to use (no such computation takes place with direct steering: it's up to you to know until which angle you can lean without falling).
Anyway, for our discussion on direct lean, what counts is that your stick output is filtered (or the target lean angle computed at step 1 above is filtered, which is roughly the same).
Now filtering --> smoothing --> delay and sluggishness.
The "--> smoothing" explains why when you play with direct lean OFF and you try direct lean ON you find it hard and not natural: it's because there's no smoothing, you have to smooth your thumbs ! You do crazy things with your stick with direct lean OFF, the filter saves your ass. You do the same with direct lean ON, you fall.
The "--> delay and sluggishness" explains what grT has experienced on the 500cc.
As an extra argument, try to check this: direct lean OFF, put the bike full lean right (steady) and then release the stick to the middle (just remove the thumb from the stick and let it center). You will see that the bike picks up (i.e. goes vertical), but slowly.
Now if you watch somebody's thumbs while playing with direct lean OFF you'll see that to pick up the bike faster, instead of simply releasing (or bringing) the stick to center, they "overshoot" it, they push it in the opposite direction and then back to center.
In the graph above, this would be like: I want to have 10, but if I ask for 10, I will get 10 in 2.5 seconds, too slow. So let's ask for 15: I'll quickly reach 10 and then I'll ask for 10.
In practice, you're fighting against the filtering.
Now try to convince me "it feels more natural" :P
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 03, 2014, 09:00:21 PM
I honestly think a steering damper (adjustable) will work!
There's already a steering damper in GPB but it's not adjustable (in game, but you can modify the bike's model).
I'd like to have it exposed and adjustable, but I'm ot 100% sure this will help too much: unfortunately what we lack when playing GPB is not tuning options but feedback about what is happening on the bike under our ass :)
MaX.
Man.. This is turning into a monumental headf#*k!!! Haaahahaha :o
No no! I fully understand what you just explained (i really do) thanks!
It really is difficult to gauge what is happening with the bike sometimes on the screen!
Which leads to sore fingers from typing on this forum lol. I just try to compare what I see/feel on my bike to what goes on in gpbikes.. Same as anybody else has their view on what is realistic or not.
Obviously we have to remember the compromises with control input!
I would still like to see the steering damper in-game though as part of the bike setup! :P
Also to have your telemetry in the game maX would be great! To add another page to flick between setup and telemetry would be spot on!
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 03, 2014, 11:59:11 PM
Also to have your telemetry in the game maX would be great! To add another page to flick between setup and telemetry would be spot on!
You can run the telemetry app in parallel to GPB.
Run the telemetry viewer, run GPB.
Ride a few laps, Alt+Tab to go to the telemetry viewer, Ctrl-L to load the telemetry (it remembers the last dir used, so ...) double click on the last file (files are named so that the "alphabetic" order corresponds to "older to newest" order) and you're all set.
MaX.
QuoteIf you want to bang the stick left/right as fast as you can and not fall, then you have to turn direct lean OFF
Sorry MAX but i totally disagree on that.
It does not work.
You will fall instantly.
I tried this in most of the fast chicanes and waht happens?
Crash.
The virtual rider tried to get to the opposite direction but the bike did not follow (don´t know how to explain exactly, a movie will be better).
That´s the problem with fast direction changes and DL off.
e.g. first right corner Victoria after the star/finish line....deep right hander, stick on max lean right. If you want to get the bike really fast up (turn stick fast to the left) you will crash because the virtual rider force applied to the handle bar seems to be to much for the bike. you will crash.
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 03, 2014, 10:16:20 PM
I suggest you to do the following experiment: play 1 month with the wheel, just to give your brain enough time to forget how GPB feels on a joypad with direct lean OFF (the setting you're accustomed too right now). In a month, try again to play with the joypad but with Direct Lean ON and get back with your impressions.
I could bet that in a month time, joypad + direct lean ON will no longer look as terrible to you as it looks right now.
Well I'm a girl in a bit of a hurry Max..a month is a very long time when you're only 18 years old. It's like a full year for you grown-ups! ;D
Out of curiousity, after playing with the steering wheel for an hour or so last night I switched back to my wired xbox 360 controller and left direct lean on. It already makes sense Max. A lot of sense!
By contrast playing with a joypad with "direct lean" off (i.e. with the "filter" activated) with the nature of the "filter" as it stands at the moment does not make any sense at all! Arguably. It messes up the handling characteristics of the physics. Arguably in an important & fundamental way.
I was firmly in the "direct lean" off camp but having now plugged a wheel in and experienced "first-hand" the true physics model I have switched camps. If I play with a joypad now or in the future it will be with "direct lean" on.
What I think the problem is here is that people are used to normal joypad behaviour, whether it's an xbox 360 controller or a PS3 pad or whatever, and normal and accepted joypad behaviour is to use the thumbstick for leaning the bike exactly as the "direct lean off" club wishes to do.. which is normal behaviour on xbox 360/xbox one, playstation 3 or 4 and from my experience all other pc racing games as well.. Indeed the joypads are designed to be used that way.
So I agree with Max. Sorry PiBoSo and development team but if you are listening your "fly by wire" filter needs fixing..! I would go as far as to say that it is a priority for the development team to do this. Certainly in my opinion in a finished gpbikes game this aspect must be properly addressed and the filter fixed. As it stands the filter arguably doesn't work properly..not with a joypad anyway.Incidentally on the gp500 pc game I can use a steering wheel and it behaves perfectly, just as a steering wheel does in gpbikes. I now play the gp500 pc game using my xbox wired controller and it too works seamlessly and perfectly in the game. So dare I say it but whatever "filter" is programmed into the game for use with joypads works as god intended it to do.. the "direct lean off" club members would love it.
Anyway, Max as I was saying I switched from using my steering wheel back to using my xbox controller but this time with direct lean on. You're right it really is a case of disciplining one's brain not to flick the left stick back to vertical, or beyond vertical, to raise the bike when coming off a bend. You have to let the stick itself do the work..
Yes, it works Max if you apply this technique. Real challenge are quick direction changes left to right..through chicanes and so on..in the middle area of the thumbstick's range with the bike moving around it can get a little muddled..but again I guess this is about reprogramming one's brain.
Bottom line for me is I really enjoy the steering wheel, it feels great, but I immediately was lapping faster using the xbox pad with direct lean on. The faster lap time came quite easily. So arguably the joypad with direct lean on, dependent upon one's individual riding style, possibly does, as a bottom line, produce faster lap times?
What do others think? Is joypad (with direct lean on) generally slightly faster than a steering wheel? Have other people tried both options?
So my tendency Max is maybe to go with my xbox controller with direct lean on and coerce my poor brain into getting used to it.. ;)
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 03, 2014, 10:16:20 PM
Thanks to you. That service will be charged 250 GBP per hour spent writing messages (+ VAT). Please send your address for the invoice.
If you don't want to pay, well too bad. Send the address anyway if possible, I can try to sell it to Jamoz for even more.
MaX.
That made me laugh. :)
If I had the money I would put you on a retainer Max..but I am nothing more than a wretched and impoverished student. So all I can send you is my appreciation I'm afraid.
Having said that if we split the money and used a false address how much do you think JamoZ might be prepared to pay? ;)
grT :)
Quote from: C21 on June 04, 2014, 08:13:29 AM
QuoteIf you want to bang the stick left/right as fast as you can and not fall, then you have to turn direct lean OFF
Sorry MAX but i totally disagree on that.
It does not work.
Yeah, I was exaggerating the thing. But with direct lean ON you would fall ever more than with direct lean OFF (if you bang the stick).
By the way C21, try what auto/manual rider lean does (with or without direct lean): I start getting some feedback that many cases of "losing the front" are solved using manual rider lean.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 04, 2014, 08:33:52 AM
Out of curiousity, after playing with the steering wheel for an hour or so last night I switched back to my wired xbox 360 controller and left direct lean on. It already makes sense Max. A lot of sense!
By contrast playing with a joypad with "direct lean" off (i.e. with the "filter" activated) with the nature of the "filter" as it stands at the moment does not make any sense at all! Arguably. It messes up the handling characteristics of the physics. Arguably in an important & fundamental way.
I was firmly in the "direct lean" off camp but having now plugged a wheel in and experienced "first-hand" the true physics model I have switched camps. If I play with a joypad now or in the future it will be with "direct lean" on.
I guess a young brain takes less time to adapt to such changes then :)
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 04, 2014, 08:33:52 AM
So I agree with Max. Sorry PiBoSo and development team but if you are listening your "fly by wire" filter needs fixing..! I would go as far as to say that it is a priority for the development team to do this. Certainly in my opinion in a finished gpbikes game this aspect must be properly addressed and the filter fixed. As it stands the filter arguably doesn't work properly..not with a joypad anyway.
I wouldn't go that far (and the "fly by wire" thing was just an example, unrelated to GPB).
If I had to make the call, I'd make direct lean ON the default setting (and rename it to something else), but I'd certainly leave the option there, as the vast majority of players we have now do use direct lean OFF. I'm convinced that if we had direct lean ON by default, much less players would play with it OFF.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 04, 2014, 08:33:52 AM
Bottom line for me is I really enjoy the steering wheel, it feels great, but I immediately was lapping faster using the xbox pad with direct lean on. The faster lap time came quite easily. So arguably the joypad with direct lean on might, depending upon one's individual riding style, possibly does as a bottom line produce faster lap times?
What do others think? Is joypad (with direct lean on) generally slightly faster than a steering wheel? Have other people tried both options?
I can't comment on lap times and, most likely, others won't be able neither: once you're in a camp (ON or OFF) it's hard to do an unbiased comparison.
On the other hand, you could try to do one, as being new to the game probably makes you less partial to one or the other solution.
All the very fast guys (list that does not include me) are on direct lean OFF, but that does not prove a lot, since they mostly started with it OFF and stuck to that ever since (with the occasional 10min try with Direct Lean ON when I rant about it, usually ending in "It's weird, back to OFF").
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 04, 2014, 08:33:52 AM
Having said that if we split the money and used a false address how much do you think JamoZ might be prepared to pay? ;)
Hey Jamoz, try to give an order of magnitude with one of your animated gifs ...
MaX.
QuoteBy the way C21, try what auto/manual rider lean does (with or without direct lean): I start getting some feedback that many cases of "losing the front" are solved using manual rider lean.
I will try but i played a loooooonng time with automatic rider so i have to readjust my brain to my fingers and controls.....not easy at the moment....i will not switch while developing some mods right now..... ;D
Quote from: C21 on June 04, 2014, 09:36:59 AM
QuoteBy the way C21, try what auto/manual rider lean does (with or without direct lean): I start getting some feedback that many cases of "losing the front" are solved using manual rider lean.
I will try but i played a loooooonng time with automatic rider so i have to readjust my brain to my fingers and controls.....not easy at the moment....i will not switch while developing some mods right now..... ;D
You don't need to get accustomed to it: just do a few laps with manual rider lean on.
You can do the first ones without leaning at all, and then try to lean (it's not hard).
It seems to make a big difference in problematic corners.
MaX.
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/e2872d1a54759d1ed687bec792074a08/tumblr_mmsxt2OwZl1r1mr1po1_400.gif)
I feel violated and used...
@ JamoZ: lol ;)
O.K. without wishing to labour the point I did a back to back to back comparison test using my steering wheel and pedals, my wired xbox controller with "direct lean" on and finally my xbox controller with "direct lean" off.
For the sake of it here are my impressions:
Steering wheel and pedals (direct lean on)
Absolutely perfect. gp500 "varese" physics come to life brilliantly. Great "turn-in" ability and an impressive ability to hold a tight line through the corners. Lovely neutral feel to the steering combined with an impressive agility in overall handling. Impressive ability to maintain control even when the bike gets badly out of shape on the brakes or on the power courtesy of a much greater range of movement in the steering wheel and pedals which allows more accurate and finer controller inputs to counter and compensate the out of shape state that the bike finds itself in. You can track more accurate lines right up to the edge of the track more reliably and accurately. Also direction changes generally are more controlled and accurate..for example lining up the jump at Cadwell Park before the mountain section is much easier now. An amazing ability using the more accurate front brake input via the left foot pedal to raise the rear end of the bike on braking into turns..you can make the rear end bunny hop or perform a rear wheel "wheelie" into the braking area..just by modulating the front brake input. Which to my mind is very impressive indeed!
Downsides/negatives? Steering is "slower" because of the steering wheel's inertia and because of the movement amplitude as Max rightly described in an earlier post. That is the trade-off to the great number of advantages listed above.
Xbox Wired Controller direct-lean on
Great "turn-in" ability and impressive ability to hold a tight line through the corners to match that experienced with the steering wheel. Nice agility in overall handling.
Compared to the steering wheel the steering is significantly quicker. You can "throw" the bike around more easily and change direction more quickly than you can using the steering wheel.
Downsides/negatives: Steering is more "twitchy" which can cause you to get out of shape more easily than with the steering wheel. As discussed at length in this thread and elsewhere with direct-lean on you have to use a special and delicate approach to steering input via the left thumb-stick. Takes a lot of getting used to I think. Because of this I have concerns over how quickly & effectively one might be able to respond with compensatory steering inputs if the bike gets itself badly out of shape. I think it is possible that such a scenario might catch one out (unless one is very practiced and proficient in the art of using a thumb-stick with direct lean on) and cause a fall.
Xbox Wired Controller direct-lean off
Within 10 seconds or so of starting out on my first lap from the pitlane at Silverstone that old feeling of a serious problem with the handling of the NSR500 on the "varese" physics came back to haunt me.. the bike displayed a real reluctance to turn-in properly into bends and once in the bends would under-steer repeatedly and run wide. Not nice. It no longer felt like a gp500 grand prix bike. No where near to one in fact.
Also steering responses from controller input seemed a little "laggy" compared to the feel one gets with the joypad with direct-lean on. Which I guess is only to be expected with the "filter" activated and moderating the steering inputs.
Advantages: No problem whatsoever in returning the bike to the vertical on exiting a bend..just flick the joy-stick back to the centre as you would do in almost all other racing games. You really can "throw" the thumb-stick around in this respect without having to even think about it.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
So there you go. The above are my honest impressions having tested all controller options back to back one after the other. In a way this is reassuring for me as I was beginning to think I was going slightly mad whilst running the option of a joypad with direct lean off.. But clearly I wasn't going mad. Not at all. No wonder I wanted to experimentally adjust the physics for the 500cc bikes to try to make the handling feel right.. No wonder at all in hindsight.
My own honest opinion? The best controller option of all resulting in the fastest in lap times I strongly suspect would be a joypad running with direct lean off but crucially with a revised and reworked "filter" properly in place in the game.
I come at this quite objectively because I am new to the game and just want to find the controller input option that works best for me and which will result in the best "feel" and the best lap times. I am not here to toddle round and enjoy the scenery. I am here to try to be as competitive as I possibly can be and to achieve some decent enough lap times and some decent enough race results. If I possibly can. I was competitive on gp500 and motogp13 and have won plenty of races online. I aim to at least provide some degree of worthy competition here as well. Once I get used to the game..
So this "stuff" is very important to me.
grT :)
Nice wrap up grT.
Do you know you can use your wheel's pedals along with your joypad ? GPB allows you to "mix" more than one controller together.
Concerning lap times, you can have a look at the stats pages (http://stats.gp-bikes.com/records.php?trackid=42&bikeid=4 (http://stats.gp-bikes.com/records.php?trackid=42&bikeid=4)) to have an idea of how fast is fast.
I do think the times there have some margin as activity on GPB is a bit low at the moment, so some bike/track combos may not be very representative (especially for the 125 and 500 bike).
Also, many are now playing with the 600cc WSS bikes, for which the stats page does not keep the best times. You can find some there: http://gp-bikes.motonline-france.com/index.php (http://gp-bikes.motonline-france.com/index.php)
MaX.
P.S.
My mission to convert all the infidels to the holy grail of direct leaning is close to its end. About bloody time ... :)
Of course that leaderboard is not representative, RTH is not hotlapping atm ::)
Also, you`ll never lure me over to the dark side as long as i`m putting in those laptimes with my infidel controller settings :-X
Quote from: JamoZ on June 04, 2014, 07:55:34 PM
Of course that leaderboard is not representative, RTH is not hotlapping atm ::)
Too busy making sand castles ?
Quote from: JamoZ on June 04, 2014, 07:55:34 PM
Also, you`ll never lure me over to the dark side as long as i`m putting in those laptimes with my infidel controller settings :-X
The dark side you on are, knowing even without.
MaX.
Tried direct lean again.. Its not for me, I cant see how you could go fast with it unless you have robotic thumbs lol
Each to their own I guess..
My main goal at the moment with gpbikes is to get at least a 1:26 at phillip island! So im sticking with d/l off.. Its not looking good though lol stuck on 1:29 :(
Question.. Is it possible to do a 1:25/26 with traction control off ???
Quote from: JamoZ on June 04, 2014, 07:55:34 PM
Also, you`ll never lure me over to the dark side as long as i`m putting in those laptimes with my infidel controller settings :-X
I suspect you are possibly correct in what you are saying JamoZ. The outright
quickest option at the moment is probably a joypad running with direct lean off..
But it feels horrible in terms of turn-in and it has a big tendancy to understeer badly on many of the bends. Particularly so on the 500cc bikes. To me on the 500s it feels downright awful if I am honest.
I think the truth is that the versatility of a modern good quality joypad controller (whether xbox 360, PS3 or other type) combined with the developed skills of an experienced and fast player compensates for the flaws that I now believe are present in the "filter" between the game physics and the joypad controller input. Good players are able to compensate for the tendency of say a 500cc bike to under-steer and to turn-in clumsily whilst making full use of the other attributes that running a joypad with direct lean off provides you with. But it's not right is it?
To me this saga will continue until the proximate cause of all this confusion is properly dealt with. The proximate cause being the flaws in the "filter" that sits between the game physics and the steering input(s) when direct lean is turned off..
To put it succinctly the "filter" needs to be reworked.
Otherwise my perception of the situation as a newcomer is that this strange situation will continue for anyone who chooses to use a gamepad in gpbikes now and in the future.
With the filter fixed people would have a proper and fair choice in using a gamepad in this truly brilliant simulation of real motorcycle sport whilst electing to run with either direct lean turned on or off.
Is this not the required solution here?
If somehow I am missing something obvious or technical that means the "filter" cannot be worked on and modified and that it must remain as it presently is then fair enough. I can live with that and I would apologise for my naivety..however I am racking my brains to try to understand how this could be the case if I am honest.
In the meantime I will I think persevere with my steering wheel and pedals and see if I can get up to speed that way..
This is just my opinion. I sincerely hope no one minds me voicing it.
grT :)
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 04, 2014, 09:40:30 PM
Question.. Is it possible to do a 1:25/26 with traction control off ???
You mean traction help or the bike's traction control ?
Traction help is not used often (I think the majority has it off) while traction control is just a preference: it may depend on the track, on the conditions etc.
A few have done 1:25 and some more 1:26. I would say that many ore than the ones currently listed on the stats page are capable of 1.26 at least, as Victoria being the default track, many just no longer use it too much. So 1:26 is definitely possible (but not easy), 1:25 is elite level for me.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 04, 2014, 10:19:56 PM
I suspect you are possibly correct in what you are saying JamoZ. The outright quickest option at the moment is probably a joypad running with direct lean off..
But it feels horrible in terms of turn-in and it has a big tendancy to understeer badly on many of the bends. Particularly so on the 500cc bikes. To me on the 500s it feels downright awful if I am honest.
But how can it be quicker if it has those disadvantages ?
Can you tell me where exactly it is/seems/feels quicker ?
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 04, 2014, 10:19:56 PM
To put it succinctly the "filter" needs to be reworked.
Otherwise my perception of the situation as a newcomer is that this strange situation will continue for anyone who chooses to use a gamepad in gpbikes now and in the future.
With the filter fixed people would have a proper and fair choice in using a gamepad in this truly brilliant simulation of real motorcycle sport whilst electing to run with either direct lean turned on or off.
Is this not the required solution here?
If somehow I am missing something obvious or technical that means the "filter" cannot be worked on and modified and that it must remain as it presently is then fair enough. I can live with that and I would apologise for my naivety..however I am racking my brains to try to understand how this could be the case if I am honest.
It's not that simple and there are indeed some limitations that you can't overcome, no matter how much you work on a filter.
Whichever low-pass filter will introduce some delay, typically the more you filter the bigger the delay.
From the few info Piboso has provided on this subject, the filter implemented in GPB is not a trivial one so I can only think it's already some sort of sophisticated stuff, meaning it's not so sure there are obvious ways to improve it.
One thing I suggested in the past (but the boss didn't sound too sold on it, it didn't sound at all actually) is to have a slider that allows to gradually move from direct lean OFF to direct lean ON (as we have them today). It's just speculation, but maybe something mid-way could suit all of us (and having it tunable could be a plus). I even think this isn't especially difficult to implement.
By the way, if you put direct lean ON and it feels too jerky, you can try to tame it down using the "smooth" thing (that is, guess what, just another filter).
The interesting thing about the "smooth" option is that it is tunable (various levels) and tunable separately for press/release (which in terms of leaning would be lean/pick up).
MaX.
Just the bikes traction control..
Not using any tc or anti wheelie at the moment but I have tried it.. Not sure what is better
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 04, 2014, 08:07:22 PM
Quote from: JamoZ on June 04, 2014, 07:55:34 PM
Of course that leaderboard is not representative, RTH is not hotlapping atm ::)
Too busy making sand castles ?
No we discovered Hentai :-X
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 04, 2014, 11:06:50 PM
Just the bikes traction control..
Not using any tc or anti wheelie at the moment but I have tried it.. Not sure what is better
We originally started playing GPB without any electronical assists. But we soon found out that the majority of the players used some form of electronics, and after putting our pride aside we found out that it doesn`t specifically makes you any faster. I find it more that it takes some tasks out of your hands so that you can focus on other things that are thrown at you. You also have to learn how to ride with the TC and how to make the best use of it, where you can exit a corner full throttle and lean against the TC for example. Don`t expect to magically be 2 seconds faster by putting TC or anti wheelie on.
And yes, 1.26 is doable without electronics...
Il give it a proper go with traction control.. I dont expect to go much if any quicker with it.. Just trying to find the right path to go down! Controller setup.. Bike setup..etc
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 04, 2014, 10:49:00 PM
But how can it be quicker if it has those disadvantages ?
Can you tell me where exactly it is/seems/feels quicker ?
I think for many people, notwithstanding the problems with it, a joypad with direct lean off and the "filter" activated will, possibly at least, still be the
fastest option because of familiarity of feel with the thumbstick behaviour and with the in-game steering reactions with this set-up. The thumbstick's control and influence over the steering with this set-up reflects thumbstick control and behaviour seen in the overwhelming majority of other racing games, whether on two wheels or four, since the metaphorical dawn of time. Analogue joypad's have always behaved like this..from probably PS1 onwards.
Also I think that for many people the joypad, or more specifically the thumbstick on the joystick, with direct lean off, may provide a more "forgiving" steering input in gpbikes with a less demanding and exacting thumbstick control technique on the part of the player. I suppose one might argue that the joypad with direct lean off offers a more user friendly feel to steering inputs compared to the more challenging technique required to be a fully paid up member of the "direct lean on" club.
I suppose the parallel to real life motorcycle racing is the adage that if you give a racer a race bike that he or she is more comfortable and familiar with in terms of its handling he or she will go faster. Because the bike feels more user friendly to the racer..
I'm playing Devil's advocate again Max. ;)
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 04, 2014, 10:49:00 PM
It's not that simple and there are indeed some limitations that you can't overcome, no matter how much you work on a filter.
Whichever low-pass filter will introduce some delay, typically the more you filter the bigger the delay.
From the few info Piboso has provided on this subject, the filter implemented in GPB is not a trivial one so I can only think it's already some sort of sophisticated stuff, meaning it's not so sure there are obvious ways to improve it.
One thing I suggested in the past (but the boss didn't sound too sold on it, it didn't sound at all actually) is to have a slider that allows to gradually move from direct lean OFF to direct lean ON (as we have them today). It's just speculation, but maybe something mid-way could suit all of us (and having it tunable could be a plus). I even think this isn't especially difficult to implement.
I do hear what you are saying Max. I suppose only PiBoSo himself can probably answer this question that I have cheekily posed.
However, my lay-person's arguably "simple" mind is telling me that every filter of this type, whether complex or not, should have some scope for fine adjustment in it. Arguably the greater the complexities of the "filter" are the more advanced the scope for adjustment becomes? That at least is what my layperson's logic is telling me anyway. But maybe I'm completely wrong in thinking this?
The bottom line for me remains that in its current manifestation the "filter" seems to be displaying a flaw. Which I think is causing quite a lot of frustration for many people.
I like the sound of a slider too by the way. If implemented correctly that could present people with a worthwhile solution here. Also in making all these comments I do fully concede that to an experienced user such as yourself a joypad running with direct lean on represents a formidable and very competitive controller set-up option in the game. I am not arguing against that fact. No way. But it seems to be a select number of players who can master the required technique and who can end-up feeling comfortable with this set-up. I think you yourself Max left the direct lean on club once before and then came back to it..which I think does illustrate that it can be a difficult club to join and maintain one's membership within. ;)
In honesty I am now quite happy using a steering wheel. I like it as a controller option very much. The truth is that using a steering wheel and pedals set-up has opened my eyes to how brilliant the physics model is in the game. And it is brilliant. However, it should feel brilliant with a familiar feeling joypad in the game as well..
That's all I'm saying. :)
grT
P.S. thanks Max for the "smoothness" tips on setting up the lean input within the controller settings. I gave it a go and yes it does help quite a bit in reducing the jerkiness in the thumbstick inputs. A very worthwhile tip.
Hmm im not sure there is any problem with direct lean off.. Iv just done loads of laps with direct lean off and manual rider L/R lean..
Its pretty damn good! Be difficult to go really fast but you can deffinately push harder through turns, if I sit the rider up a little bit I fly over parts of the track where I would probably crash with auto L/R lean..
So is it..
Direct lean on/off
Auto/manual rider L/R
Direct steer with/without torque..
Whats the best combo? I think Klax is the only guy doin it right lol
Everything else seems to have drawbacks..
Still im gonna be stubborn and keep the idea that an adjustable steering damper will solve everything hahahaha :P
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 05, 2014, 07:50:11 AM
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 04, 2014, 10:49:00 PM
But how can it be quicker if it has those disadvantages ?
Can you tell me where exactly it is/seems/feels quicker ?
I think for many people, notwithstanding the problems with it, a joypad with direct lean off and the "filter" activated will, possibly at least, still be the fastest option because of familiarity of feel with the thumbstick behaviour and with the in-game steering reactions with this set-up.
Yeah but the familiarity is not a valid argument. Get familiar with direct lean ON and then we can discuss.
It's like saying english is a better language than german because I once tried german and I didn't like it.
OK, english is a better language than german, but not for that reason :)
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 05, 2014, 07:50:11 AM
The bottom line for me remains that in its current manifestation the "filter" seems to be displaying a flaw. Which I think is causing quite a lot of frustration for many people.
Hmm that's not really the case: nobody of the the direct lean off players is complaining about it. They just feel it's right and direct lean ON feels wrong.
The ones that feel direct lean OFF wrong, well, they switch to direct lean ON :)
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 05, 2014, 07:50:11 AM
But it seems to be a select number of players who can master the required technique and who can end-up feeling comfortable with this set-up. I think you yourself Max left the direct lean on club once before and then came back to it..which I think does illustrate that it can be a difficult club to join and maintain one's membership within. ;)
I started with direct lean OFF (as it's the default), felt the bike too hard to flick, moved to ON and was as happy as a lamb after easter (or as a turkey after thanksgiving, for our US friends).
Then discussing with the others, everybody was using it OFF, so I gave it a try (a long try, not a 10min job). Against my own will, as it felt wrong.
After a month I decided it was not OK for me, so I moved back to ON. I don't remember being any faster with it OFF, only more annoyed.
But once again, all the fast guys here use it OFF. Does that means that having it ON makes you slower ? They say yes (but they never really tried it out as you did), I say no. We agree to disagree and life goes on.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 05, 2014, 08:42:32 AM
Hmm im not sure there is any problem with direct lean off.. Iv just done loads of laps with direct lean off and manual rider L/R lean..
There's definitely something strange going on with the auto rider lean L/R. I posted in the bugs report section a while ago (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1156.0 (http://forum.piboso.com/index.php?topic=1156.0)) but we have no reply yet from da men (and, like other touchy subjects, we may never get one).
But there's no "best" combo BOBR6, it's just how you want to play it.
What Klax is doing is surely out of reach: playing direct steer without force feedback is crazy (but I do understand why he wants to do it).
MaX.
MaX.
Maximilian, if you and I were somehow husband and wife coexisting in a parallel universe I am sure in my mind we would fall asleep most nights still murmuring under our breaths concerning the relative merits and disadvantages of "direct-lean on" versus "direct lean off".
On one particular occasion this might continue throughout the next morning and through to lunchtime..with me adding fuel to the fire over lunch by insisting upon mentioning "filters" and problems with "turn in" whilst you silently shake your head whilst chewing on a sprout.. Things would inevitably come to a head later in the afternoon in the garden with me turning the hosepipe on you full blast whilst you are innocently pruning your dahlias and trying to forget our strongly held differences.. ;D
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 05, 2014, 09:42:18 AM
Hmm that's not really the case: nobody of the the direct lean off players is complaining about it. They just feel it's right and direct lean ON feels wrong.
The ones that feel direct lean OFF wrong, well, they switch to direct lean ON :)
Dare I say it though Max but that is not the full picture is it?
Some members of the "direct lean off" club have been quite vocal in criticising the handling of certain bikes in the game. Particularly the 500cc bikes with the "varese" physics. JamoZ for example describes the 500cc bikes as handling like a "dustcart".
I think you yourself have commented in this thread to the effect that with "direct lean off" many of the bikes in the game have a tendency to handle and feel like dustcarts including the 125..
So something does seem to be amiss somewhere I would suggest when you turn off direct lean and use your joypad.
Max, I hear what you are saying about the filter..can you please explain to me how and why you think the culprit here may be the "virtual rider" model within the physics engine as opposed to the "filter" itself?
Are you saying, in effect, that when the "filter" is activated that the "virtual rider" itself does not blend and function with the "filter" correctly?
Are you also detecting faults with the "virtual rider" within the medium of "direct lean" being turned on?
I am happy to switch culprits if there is good reason to do so.. ;)
Big hug, grT :)
Max, don't worry. I just followed the link you provided above to Bob..I am reading through your topic "Direct lean and auto/manual rider lean L/R"
I am having a careful read through.
Cheers, grT
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 05, 2014, 01:00:41 PM
Maximilian, if you and I were somehow husband and wife coexisting in a parallel universe I am sure in my mind we would fall asleep most nights still murmuring under our breaths concerning the relative merits and disadvantages of "direct-lean on" versus "direct lean off".
On one particular occasion this might continue throughout the next morning and through to lunchtime..with me adding fuel to the fire over lunch by insisting upon mentioning "filters" and problems with "turn in" whilst you silently shake your head whilst chewing on a sprout.. Things would inevitably come to a head later in the afternoon in the garden with me turning the hosepipe on you full blast whilst you are innocently pruning your dahlias and trying to forget our strongly held differences.. ;D
Boy, and i thought MaX was the only lunatic around here ;D
This topic brings back good memories of the old forum where people almost killed eachother over this subject :-X
This quote from chwiej on the other thread speaks volumes to me I have to say:
Quote
Same here.I'm almost giving up.Original bikes are not that bad but it still happends.I play with direct lean on (the only way with wireless xbox 360 controller).I noticed that if you turn off automatic L/R lean off,the problem is gone.WHAT IS GOING ON?It is really annoying,I tried playing with deadzones, smoothing and linearity and nothing seems to help.The other option is to turn off direct lean,but then steering got a huge delay,bike feels like a boat all over the track.I think its a physics problem( virtual rider or automatic lean).
Unquote
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 05, 2014, 01:00:41 PM
Maximilian, if you and I were somehow husband and wife coexisting in a parallel universe
I like your wording: coexistence more or less nails the marriage thing :)
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 05, 2014, 01:00:41 PM
Some members of the "direct lean off" club have been quite vocal in criticising the handling of certain bikes in the game. Particularly the 500cc bikes with the "varese" physics. JamoZ for example describes the 500cc bikes as handling like a "dustcart".
Surely, but he has no complains on the 990 for example.
And I can't recall anybody complainig about the 125 (which is the bike that, to me, feels wrongest when direct lean is OFF). Of course, except the ones that switched to direct lean ON.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 05, 2014, 01:00:41 PM
I think you yourself have commented in this thread to the effect that with "direct lean off" many of the bikes in the game have a tendency to handle and feel like dustcarts including the 125..
I have, but I'm not one of the "direct lean off" guys.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 05, 2014, 01:00:41 PM
So something does seem to be amiss somewhere I would suggest when you turn off direct lean and use your joypad.
There's a fair chance it's not amiss: it's just like that. You filter, you get that. You don't, well, you don't.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 05, 2014, 01:28:27 PM
This quote from chwiej on the other thread speaks volumes to me I have to say:
Quote
Same here.I'm almost giving up.Original bikes are not that bad but it still happends.I play with direct lean on (the only way with wireless xbox 360 controller).I noticed that if you turn off automatic L/R lean off,the problem is gone.WHAT IS GOING ON?It is really annoying,I tried playing with deadzones, smoothing and linearity and nothing seems to help.The other option is to turn off direct lean,but then steering got a huge delay,bike feels like a boat all over the track.I think its a physics problem( virtual rider or automatic lean).
Unquote
Not sure it speaks volumes: chwiej said that direct lean off feels wrong to him, so he switched to direct lean on.
The thing he's complaining about (losing the front for no particular reason) seems to come from the auto rider lean, not from direct lean ON or OFF. It's a different issue.
Quote from: JamoZ on June 05, 2014, 01:14:11 PM
Boy, and i thought MaX was the only lunatic around here ;D
Pfff, yeah sure ... not saying I'm not, but I have a pretty long list of lunatics here ...
Quote from: JamoZ on June 05, 2014, 01:14:11 PM
This topic brings back good memories of the old forum where people almost killed eachother over this subject :-X
I don't remember any blood being poured on this (on other subject yes, but not on this one). But it's not too late ;)
MaX.
Max, I am not going to torment you any more over all this. ;) But I do thank you once again for your forbearance and for your guidance and assistance.
I have found a great solution that works really well for me and which I am happy with. Namely my steering wheel and pedals.
I think you have a point Max. At the moment the best option in terms of controller input and accurate controller response in the game is with direct lean on. I have found that out for myself by switching to my steering wheel and pedals. I also think with perseverance the joypad direct-lean on option can and does work very well in the game. But it does take some determination and retraining of the grey matter to get there. It's my second best option now. Without a doubt. I hated it before but now I quite like it if I am honest. The "rubber band" feeling has gone..never thought it would but it has which is a pleasant surprise.
As a parting shot on the subject all I can say is that in other games such as gp500 there is a filter that activates when you use a joypad. So you are not running a "direct-lean" on arrangement in the gp500 game. The feel whilst using a joypad in gp500 is very realistic and it is very pleasant to use without it producing any deficits in the handling of the bikes in the game. It works beautifully. Also when using a steering wheel in the game, presumably without this filter, the handling in the game feels equally as pleasant and accurate. I am the first to admit that gpbikes is a much more technically advanced "kettle of fish" however and that my simplistic view on all this may well not be viable or appropriate in the context of PiBoSo's gpbikes.
More than that I cannot say. But I am really enjoying gpbikes! That is one thing I can vouch for with 100% certainty.
Best to all, grT :)
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 05, 2014, 02:45:37 PM
As a parting shot on the subject all I can say is that in other games such as gp500 there is a filter that activates when you use a joypad. So you are not running a "direct-lean" on arrangement in the gp500 game. The feel whilst using a joypad in gp500 is very realistic and it is very pleasant to use without it producing any deficits in the handling of the bikes in the game. It works beautifully. Also when using a steering wheel in the game, presumably without this filter, the handling in the game feels equally as pleasant and accurate. I am the first to admit that gpbikes is a much more technically advanced "kettle of fish" however and that my simplistic view on all this may well not be viable or appropriate in the context of PiBoSo's gpbikes.
gp500 is so old that I'm not even sure at the time quality analog joypads were available. It is my understanding that it has essentially been designed to be played with a keyboard (I can be wrong on this point): this of course requires some heavy filtering to get something decent. I wouldn't be surprised if some compromise had been made even in the bikes' physics in order to better "tolerate" non-analog inputs.
And you're right: the GPB bike model is very likely to be much more complex and detailed than the gp500 one, so some behaviour appearing here could be totally absent there.
MaX.
P.S.
Is the usage of words like "forbearance" allowed on this forum ? :P
Lol!! What does forbearence actually mean?
Bloody linguists.. ::)
Nah I enjoyed reading through all that I gotta say lol
Great job
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 05, 2014, 07:47:29 PM
gp500 is so old that I'm not even sure at the time quality analog joypads were available. It is my understanding that it has essentially been designed to be played with a keyboard.
I can confirm that the gp500 pc game has full support for analogue steering wheels, analogue joypads, analogue joysticks as well as a keyboard.
The throttle is fully analogue, the front brake and rear brake may also be be mapped to fully analogue inputs. The keyboard option and/or digital input options are also there, as incredibly to me, some players preferred to play with the keyboard and some still do this to this day!
Analogue joypads were becoming quite commonly available I think at the time of the game's release. Fully analogue joysticks were also available. As was the microsoft sidewinder force feedback wheel which had just been released. My Dad purchased an analogue joypad in 1999 to play the game with and it worked fine although he ended up preferring his microsoft steering wheel and pedals I believe. I still have the analogue joypad in a box at home somewhere.
In the control settings for the gp500 game there are tabs for a steering wheel, joystick, gamepad (all with analogue inputs available) and also separately for the keyboard.
I think there must be filters of some sort pre-set in the game as the analogue sticks on the xbox controller feels as perfectly dialled in as does the steering wheel when you plug each controller into the game and calibrate the settings.
I think gp500 was incredibly advanced for its day. Having said that the earlier Superbike World Championship pc game by Milestone I think also had full analogue inputs available for steering, throttle and front brake. So gp500 wasn't the first..
I would definitely agree though that the physics model and any filters that may be in the game are not likely to be comparable in their complexity to those in gpbikes.
I'm a little surprised Max that you didn't play gp500 all those years ago before the gpbikes betas were released. I reckon your wife must have had you better trained in those days! ;)
Sorry about my use of words but I can't help it! lol. It's not deliberate..it's the way I speak. I attended an English language school in Paris for years and they all spoke that way ;D Help! LOL.
grT ;)
Lol it amazes me how most people can speak english.. Usually better english than an englishman!
I know a few foreign words but thats all..
MaX.. Are you french? I read you were living in scotland! How on earth does a french guy understand a scottsman?? Lol
Just get on their level, drink loads of beer and eventually you`ll be able to understand them! Same for Irish people, you just need alot of booze. 8)
Haahaha thats true..
I think beer is all 5 of your 5 a day in scotland lol.
On a night out though nobody drinks more than the dutch! Im my experiences anyway..
Apparantly iv been to amsterdam and Assen! But I dont remember lol
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 05, 2014, 09:22:49 PM
Analogue joypads were becoming quite commonly available I think at the time of the game's release.
Yes, but were they of decent quality ?
I ask because before buying an almighty xbox 360 pad I used to play with an equally priced Thrustmaster 3-in-1 dual analog super ultra mega powers for the win.
GPB was a nightmare. The day I said "fuck it, I'll buy a 360 pad just to see", is the day I really started to enjoy GPB. The thrustcrapper has reached the trash can immediately.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 05, 2014, 09:22:49 PM
I'm a little surprised Max that you didn't play gp500 all those years ago before the gpbikes betas were released. I reckon your wife must have had you better trained in those days! ;)
I've never been a big (computer games) player, a bit of this and that when I was young, some cod4 in teams more recently. For a while I was playing backgammon semi-seriously. But with a work, a wife, two kids and a bike, it's hard to find the time for these things. Made the mistake to have a look at GPB and ...
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 05, 2014, 09:22:49 PM
Sorry about my use of words but I can't help it! lol. It's not deliberate..it's the way I speak. I attended an English language school in Paris for years and they all spoke that way ;D Help! LOL.
I've studied in Paris too. Hated the city.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 05, 2014, 10:01:01 PM
MaX.. Are you french? I read you were living in scotland! How on earth does a french guy understand a scottsman?? Lol
I'm italian (sad thing, I know) but I've been living in France since 1997: I studied a year in Paris and decided that France was (and is) way better than Italy. But as I hate Paris, went down south to live in the Nice/Cannes area. Much better, especially for biking :)
These last months I've been in Glasgow on a sabbatical year: very bad idea. Weather sucks (I mean it sucks big big time), city sucks (*), plenty of other things sucks. People are very kind and much more civilized than in France (not to speak about Italy), but the only real good thing I've had here are rugby matches (as a spectator I mean).
In 3 weeks time I'm back to the Cote d'Azur. W00t!!1 I'm counting the milliseconds ...
Anyway, I can't understand a scottsman (unless he's speaking a proper english). Glaswegian in particular: they could speak arab it'd be the same for me. Sometimes I'm not even sure they understand each other. Once it took me 4 repetitions of "Tomorrow by 4" before I finally managed to understand (and mostly thanks to some complicate reasoning around the place I was in, a dry cleaning). It sounded something like "toommow bafo" and the jock (hehe) was doing clearly no effort to help ... well, FYTP (as Inspector Rebus says, in Ian Rankin's books).
MaX.
(*) Funny, I was reading this no more than 1 hour ago: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27309446?ocid=socialflow_facebook (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27309446?ocid=socialflow_facebook)
It'a bit long, but he core message is in the following lines:
Quote(Glasgow's) Obesity rates are among the highest in the world.
...
A 2011 study compared it (mortality) with Liverpool and Manchester, which have roughly equal levels of unemployment, deprivation and inequality. It found that residents of Glasgow are about 30% more likely to die young, and 60% of those excess deaths are triggered by just four things - drugs, alcohol, suicide and violence.
That's no place to live. At least not for me.
I thought you were french :-\
I`m sorry, i disliked you for no reason except being french (actually that`s quite a legitimate reason for most people ;D )
Now that we know you`re italian, teach me some italian. I love Italy & the Italians ;D
I`ll teach you some dutch words, you`ll impress the ladies with your manly dutch talk...
Lol yeah how can anybody dislike italians?
Nail biting moment id say ''ahhh f#*k me that was close!''
Itailian would say ''mamma mia'' lol
Wish I could move abroad.. Bored of this over crowded shithole we call great britain.. Great racetracks though lol
Quote from: JamoZ on June 05, 2014, 10:51:37 PM
I thought you were french :-\
I`m sorry, i disliked you for no reason except being french (actually that`s quite a legitimate reason for most people ;D )
Don't be sorry, the reason was very valid indeed. And if you really know me, you have plenty of other reasons to dislike me :)
Quote from: JamoZ on June 05, 2014, 10:51:37 PM
Now that we know you`re italian, teach me some italian. I love Italy & the Italians ;D
I`ll teach you some dutch words, you`ll impress the ladies with your manly dutch talk...
Dutch ? Yeah thaks mate, I'll add it to my collection of useless languages (at the moment including italian and some romanian).
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 05, 2014, 11:49:46 PM
Wish I could move abroad.. Bored of this over crowded shithole we call great britain.
Come to Glasgow, it may change your mind :)
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 05, 2014, 10:41:27 PM
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 05, 2014, 09:22:49 PM
Analogue joypads were becoming quite commonly available I think at the time of the game's release.
Yes, but were they of decent quality ?
I ask because before buying an almighty xbox 360 pad I used to play with an equally priced Thrustmaster 3-in-1 dual analog super ultra mega powers for the win.
GPB was a nightmare. The day I said "fuck it, I'll buy a 360 pad just to see", is the day I really started to enjoy GPB. The thrustcrapper has reached the trash can immediately.
I used my Dad's old circa 1999 Gravis "terminator" analogue pad last year on his old dual boot windows 98/windows xp pc. It's pretty good to be honest. Not as good as a modern xbox 360 or PS3 pad but not a million miles away. Very good for some of the older games I would say. I suppose at the end of the day analogue joystick or thumbstick movement is still analogue movement whether through directx 6 or directx 11.
In many ways if I am honest the Microsoft controller products from those days are noticeably of much better quality than the vast majority of modern steering wheels, joypads and flight joysticks. My Microsoft Precison Racing wheel feels sturdier, better made and more responsive than any modern steering wheel and pedals combo I have tried. I also have a Microsoft Sidewinder force feedback wheel back at home and the quality of the force feedback is excellent. I think these days you have to spend a lot of money on a controller set-up, whether it be steering wheel/pedals, joypad or flight-stick, to match the quality of those earlier Microsoft products. Indeed arguably one has to purchase another modern day Microsoft product, the xbox 360 joypad controller, to be able to compete!
Microsoft's hardware products I think have always been of the highest quality.
I tried a Thrustmaster steering wheel and pedals once and returned it to the shop.. For me the quality wasn't on the same level as my decade old Microsoft Steering wheel. Nowhere near if I am honest.
I forgot to mention that gp500 also has the option for manual rider movement in addition to the steering input. In the gp500 leagues, which are still going by the way(!) (there was a gp500 BSB league championship race round Oulton Park on Wednesday night of this week to which I was invited..) , the really fast players run with manual rider movement on. Here's video to illustrate what I'm talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/v/3nECwsUKFMc
So maybe Klax has got the right idea! I think he has personally.. :)
I think this illustrates what I am saying about how advanced the gp500 pc game was for it's day Max. The only motorcycle racing game that beats it even in this day and age is gpbikes. Although SBK2000/2001 was a good game. Dare I say it but the gp500 pc game still beats gpbikes in one important area. Rear wheel steering. In gp500 the physics model in terms of rear wheel steering is in my opinion much better. Amazing as that comment may sound to your ears Max. ;)
I think in so many ways gp500 was the forerunner to gpbikes. In many ways gpbikes is what I would have imagined gp500-2 to be like..
Max, your command of English is so near perfect..I was convinced you were British. Very impressive!
As regards Paris for me it is the most beautiful city in the world. But some of the Parisians could do with a bucket of cold water being poured over their heads..not all but some of them. Apologies to any Parisians who may be present! ;D
France and Italy are both breathtakingly beautiful countries though. No offence to Glasgow intended!
Have fun!
"Midge"
P.S. if I was Grooveski's girlfriend the first thing I would do is buy him some socks and a new set of pyjama bottoms! Nice bloke that he is though.. ;D
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 06, 2014, 08:10:07 AM
I used my Dad's old circa 1999 Gravis "terminator" analogue pad last year on his old dual boot windows 98/windows xp pc. It's pretty good to be honest. Not as good as a modern xbox 360 or PS3 pad but not a million miles away. Very good for some of the older games I would say. I suppose at the end of the day analogue joystick or thumbstick movement is still analogue movement whether through directx 6 or directx 11.
The optical encoder used to detect the stick movements, the attached electronics and the mechanics of the joints can make a huge difference (even between modern joypads).
If you want a test, plug your old pad into your PC and use it with GPB: you'll be able to compare to the xbox pad. Could be interesting.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 06, 2014, 08:10:07 AM
I forgot to mention that gp500 also has the option for manual rider movement in addition to the steering input. In the gp500 leagues, which are still going by the way(!) (there was a gp500 BSB league championship race round Oulton Park on Wednesday night of this week to which I was invited..) , the really fast players run with manual rider movement on. Here's video to illustrate what I'm talking about:
Hmmm ... do yo know what are the controls he's using ?
Bike lean on the joypad stick, throttle/brake on the joystick vertical and rider lean on the joystick horizontal ?
Or is it rider movements on the joypad, throttle, brake and lean on the joystick ?
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 06, 2014, 08:10:07 AM
Dare I say it but the gp500 pc game still beats gpbikes in one important area. Rear wheel steering. In gp500 the physics model in terms of rear wheel steering is in my opinion much better.
What do you mean with "rear wheel steeering" ?
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 06, 2014, 08:10:07 AM
Max, your command of English is so near perfect..I was convinced you were British. Very impressive!
Cause I've only been writing, as typically I'm detected as non-british at the 2nd or 3rd syllable I pronounce.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 06, 2014, 08:10:07 AM
France and Italy are both breathtakingly beautiful countries though. No offence to Glasgow intended!
For offences to Glasgow, call 555-MaX. I have plenty ready for you.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 06, 2014, 08:10:07 AM
P.S. if I was Grooveski's girlfriend the first thing I would do is buy him some socks and a new set of pyjama bottoms! Nice bloke that he is though.. ;D
Buy him a GPB license.
MaX.
Rear wheel steering: I'm sure Tracey is talking about power sliding the rear wheel which in effect is rear wheel steering. It is very difficult to get a powerslide in GPB if at all totally with use of throttle power only. Not in my experience anyway. :)
Hawk.
PS: Maybe we should try building track surfaces with TRKBASPH instead of TRKASPH. We get some good power slides then. Hehe ;D ;D
Quote from: HornetMaX link=topic=1164.msg14023#msg14023
The optical encoder used to detect the stick movements, the attached electronics and the mechanics of the joints can make a huge difference (even between modern joypads).
If you want a test, plug your old pad into your PC and use it with GPB: you'll be able to compare to the xbox pad. Could be interesting.
Unfortunately I don't think I can use the gravis joypad with my modern gaming pc that runs windows 7. The gravis joypad runs an old style "game port" connection (a DA-15 connector I think it is called) which is built into the rear panel of the old style sound cards. From windows xp onwards I don't think you can run these connections unless you use an adaptor of some sort. All my other older peripherals, including my Microsoft sidewinder wheels run USB connectors.
I don't think the gravis pad would be as good or as precise as the xbox 360 joypad controller though in any case. I think the modern xbox pads are arguably the best joypads to use in gpbikes and gp500. They feel really good to me although I know a lot of people really like the ps3 pads in combination with the motion-in-joy software. I think they are both extremely good options. I have a ps3 joypad also and I really like it a lot I have to say. The two are very close I think. Arguably the ps3 with the motion-in-joy software is the more versatile of the two options as it gives you more controller configuration options that you can adapt to any game. The steering wheel & pedals option does provide formidable opposition to the use of a joypad in gpbikes though I think. There are plus and minuses with both these alternatives I think. Having now tried both these controller options in gpbikes..
[/quote]
Quote from: HornetMaX link=topic=1164.msg14023#msg14023
Hmmm ... do yo know what are the controls he's using ?
Bike lean on the joypad stick, throttle/brake on the joystick vertical and rider lean on the joystick horizontal ?
Or is it rider movements on the joypad, throttle, brake and lean on the joystick ?
Grooveski says the following:
"Aye, rider control on the pad and I've been messing with the back brake on the left trigger(using XBCD to remap the trigger to an analogue axis that the game recognises) - then you can do Moto2-style backing into corners... ...but I fall off more often. More practice required still."
More than that I cannot say. But I could maybe ask him for more details if anyone is interested?
It seems to work quite nicely though. He's certainly a very fast rider on gp500 that is for sure. Particularly round Dundrod!
Quote from: HornetMaX link=topic=1164.msg14023#msg14023
What do you mean with "rear wheel steeering" ?
The rear wheel steering technique that all real life racers use to varying degrees and extents depending upon the bike, the circuit and I suppose the particular era of racing that we are talking about.
So you use the power of the engine on corner exit to deliberately slide the rear wheel out in a controlled and measured manner to tighten up the corner exit trajectory. To in effect steer the bike with the rear wheel. As pioneered by Kenny Roberts Snr back in the early 1980's. I think all racers in almost all classes use this technique to an extent when they are on the track. With the old 500cc 2-strokes this technique was very much to the fore with the top riders..Rainey, Lawson, Schwantz, Gardner, Doohan and company all using this technique to achieve fast and competitive lap times. Although the likes of Nial McKenzie and the other more classic "constant radius" style riders didn't use it as much.
In the gp500 game this is an integral and important part of the required riding technique to achieve fast lap times. But you have to be careful as if you come off the power too early the rear wheel will grip and fling you over the handlerbars in a classic "high-side" crash. So it is a challenging technique to perfect in the game. Reflecting real life.
Having sorted out my direct lean woes out to my satisfaction the only thing remaining for me for gpbikes to be near to perfect in its physics is for more usable ability to power slide (i.e. rear wheel steer) to be built into the physics of the "game". At the moment in gpbikes the transition from the rear wheel not spinning to be spinning is in my opinion too abrupt and severe. Particularly so on the 500cc bikes. It doesn't seem as controllable as it should be. I think Ivolution and JamoZ probably agree with me in this respect. I think it was JamoZ who replied to one of my earlier posts commenting on this aspect.
If a slightly more reliable and accessible effect in this respect could be built into the physics of the "game" I think gpbikes would be close to being perfect.
BOBR6 encourages me to try harder as this does produce some power slides..but for me, whilst it should remain a very challenging technique to master, the physics in gpbikes in this respect ideally should be reworked to allow a little bit more flexibility in this respect.
Again just my opinion. But I think others may share this view also..
Quote from: HornetMaX link=topic=1164.msg14023#msg14023
Buy him a GPB license.
MaX.
As much as that is a very good idea..the socks might have to come first I think! lol ;D Sorry Grooveski! ;)
grT
"Mick Doohan NSR 500 powerslide / rear wheel steering"
This is arguably an extreme example of the art but I think it does illustrate what I am trying to describe.
https://www.youtube.com/v/Bs0Kg-niVk8
https://www.youtube.com/v/JXQlDN4knx4
grT
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 06, 2014, 10:21:17 AM
Grooveski says the following:
"Aye, rider control on the pad and I've been messing with the back brake on the left trigger(using XBCD to remap the trigger to an analogue axis that the game recognises)
Hmm ... then there's some stuff that definitely hurts my eyes: at 0.12s for example, he's on a straight, he moves very noticeably the joystick left/right but nothing seems to happen on the bike.
The left/right movements of the joystick appear on the bike waaay later, huge delay there (that could explain why flicking t left/right quickly has no effect).
Go at 0:54s: he's in a left-hander. As soon he goes out of the turn he pushes the stick to the right for the next right hander (0:58s) but the bike leans right only 1.5 seconds after that.
Just focus your eyes on the bike and keep the stick in your peripheral view. It helps if you look at slow-motion (with VLC or similar).
Also, he's absolutely rude with the brakes: look from 0:15s ... at 0.18s he just bangs the stick fully back ... you do this in GPB you fly forward.
It's a bit hard to judge from this video, but I'd tend to think that gp500 is much more permissive in therms of required input smoothness compared to GPB.
It seems to be on (Direct Lean OFF) ^ 10.
That's not to say it's wrong or something. But it's very different, as far as I can see.
It would be nice to give that guy GPB (with the very same controller config he's using for gp500) and have his thoughts on GPB, with and without direct lean.
But we'already done this experiment, with you as lab rat :) so I just expect the same reaction from him.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 06, 2014, 10:21:17 AM
If a slightly more reliable and accessible effect in this respect could be built into the physics of the "game" I think gpbikes would be close to being perfect.
Hmmm ... that's another eternal debate. How many rider in the world can powerslide the way you see the big guys doing it ? A few (at a given time).
How many GPB riders do you want to be able to powerslide ? Hmm ...
To me the difficulty of sliding in GPB comes from the fact that without adequate feedback on what the bike (and the rear tire in particular) is doing, you have no chance to control the slide properly, hence you fall. ame way you'll probably never been able to do that in GPB:
https://www.youtube.com/v/quoYHbgF6KY
To solve this, you'd have to make a compromise with real physics in order to allow people to slide around. Could be fun, but this kind of compromise does not seem to be Piboso style (at least from what we've heard from him on other requests n which similar trade-offs would have been necessary).
If we had the necessary information on the tire model, it would be in principle possible to tweak the tires to be "more forgiving" (to slide and re-grip more progressively), but 1st I'm not sure we gonna get this info on the tire model and 2nd I'm not even sure the more progressive tire will help that much. The lack of feedback is just too important.
MaX.
Regarding to rear wheel power steering i have to agree with Tracey.
That´s a crucial part in riding "beasts" fast and it was a pleasure to play with this one in GP500.
Unfortunatly it is not really possible to to this in GPB right now, no roblem for the 125cc and 250cc or the 600cc, they did powerslide not or not much in reality but in terms of the 500cc or WSBK there is something missing ;)
QuoteHaving sorted out my direct lean woes out to my satisfaction the only thing remaining for me for gpbikes to be near to perfect in its physics is for more usable ability to power slide (i.e. rear wheel steer) to be built into the physics of the "game"
100% agree
@Piboso, could you please reduce the ability to take wheelies (jumping front like a wild horse) and implement the power slide feature? ;)
You can take powerslides if you open the throttle early and hard BUT conrolling them is nearly impossible.
QuoteIf we had the necessary information on the tire model, it would be in principle possible to tweak the tires to be "more forgiving" (to slide and re-grip more progressively), but 1st I'm not sure we gonna get this info on the tire model and 2nd I'm not even sure the more progressive tire will help that much. The lack of feedback is just too important.
The lack of feedback is the most important thing and imho the most difficult thing to simulate.
I tried a few things with the tyre model but i could not get the ones to slide and regrip properly.....maybe i should do a new test (when i found some time) because it was a while ago i did this test.....hmm.....
Quote from: C21 on June 06, 2014, 11:43:57 AM
The lack of feedback is the most important thing and imho the most difficult thing to simulate.
To me it's not difficult, it's just not possible.
Quote from: C21 on June 06, 2014, 11:43:57 AM
I tried a few things with the tyre model but i could not get the ones to slide and regrip properly.....maybe i should do a new test (when i found some time) because it was a while ago i did this test.....hmm.....
Do you have any info on the tire model ? I asked Piboso a while ago but never got a reply (not sure if intentionally or if he just missed the request).
Have you managed to understand the first 30 lines of the .tyre file and the compound section ?
MaX.
I agree on the 500, but take the 990 out and put TC on 3, then ride it like you stole it...voila, powersliding. It can be done if something prevents the rear wheel from stepping out, something we don't have and honestly don't want on the 500.
Power Slides, with DTS, you can do it. I've done it several times. But it only last about a second or less. If you look very closely in some of the videos I've posted you'll see the back end of the bike kick out on me. It's helped me make a lot of those turns. From helmet view it looks kind of like, I am under steering then the back kicks out, now I am aligned with the turn again. I've had it happen a lot, just about everytime I do DTS. Controlling it on demand when every I want it is a lot more tricky. Where in MotoGP / Moto2 you see the back kick out when braking in a turn a lot. I have done that in DTS so far, but I am still relearning my braking points and how hard and how for I can lean while braking and still make the turn.
During a turn the back kicking out happens a lot in DTS, but happens very quickly. When I first started using it seriously, 80% or so of my falls were because I was losing the back end in a turn, not from falling over from leaning to much.
well iv done some epic power slides on gpb's ;)
ok i agree they're not easy or very controllable but if it was implemented into gpb's it would be a disaster imo! i find it hard enough to get the purchase from the track already.. if the bike slides in a controlled manner everytime you lose traction it would get boring just like motogp13..
think about it.. it doesnt happen on the first lap! an not on every corner..
another point.. try sliding with traction control ON!! it works..
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 06, 2014, 12:01:41 PM
if the bike slides in a controlled manner everytime you lose traction it would get boring just like motogp13..
What that man said, +1.
Quote from: Klax75 on June 06, 2014, 11:56:45 AM
Power Slides, with DTS, you can do it.
You can even without, but its hard to control and with DTS (shouldn't it be DST ?) it's surely even harder.
By the way with the 500 it should be even harder due to the engine response curve (you love these 2 strokes right ? have fun then !).
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 06, 2014, 12:07:44 PM
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 06, 2014, 12:01:41 PM
if the bike slides in a controlled manner everytime you lose traction it would get boring just like motogp13..
What that man said, +1.
Quote from: Klax75 on June 06, 2014, 11:56:45 AM
Power Slides, with DTS, you can do it.
You can even without, but its hard to control and with DTS (shouldn't it be DST ?) it's surely even harder.
By the way with the 500 it should be even harder due to the engine response curve (you love these 2 strokes right ? have fun then !).
MaX.
Yep DST. Haven't been to bed yet. lol. I've been practicing with all the bikes with DST.
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 06, 2014, 11:36:17 AM
Hmmm ... that's another eternal debate. How many rider in the world can powerslide the way you see the big guys doing it ? A few (at a given time).
How many GPB riders do you want to be able to powerslide ? Hmm ...
I have to be somewhere shortly so this will have to be brief..
I think the truth is that all experienced racers in real life possess the ability to an extent to powerslide and rear wheel steer. It goes with the territory. In many ways if you aren't able to do this you are arguably on a race track more to have fun rather than to be ultra competitive and win races..
To an extent and to a degree powersliding and rear wheel steering is an integral part of the skills required to get a racing motorcycle round a race track at a competitive pace and lap time. I think all racers indulge in this facet of racing technique to an extent. It is part and parcel of the skill of racing motorcycles many might argue. In saying that I am not talking about lurid powerslides at 160 miles an hour but I am talking about the technique required in exiting a bend hard on the power and driving it out to the edge of the track on the following straight. It can and is also used to a degree in between consecutive bends to help position and line up the motorcycle for the next bend. On the right track, on the right bike, at the right time through an appropriate series of bends..
My father, who is no longer with us, was quite an experienced club and national level racer in the U.K. back in the 1980's. He professed to having used rear wheel steering, to a degree and to an extent, in most of the races he took part in. On a hot day he even reckoned he managed to powerslide a 350cc production racer a bit on the exit to certain bends. He reckoned he powerslided his gpz900 production racer quite a bit also. But we are talking about degrees and extents of powersliding here. Not a Kevin Schwantz powerslide on the RGV at Suzuka..
My father tried out gpbikes, in an earlier beta, and absolutely loved it. With one small reservation..he felt he could not powerslide and rear wheel steer in the simulation like he felt he should be able to. Again I think he would have gravitated to the 500cc bikes in gpbikes because he loved them so much. So maybe this is why he had this feeling?
Also talking about PiBoSo's adherence to real life physics and his wish not to dumb down the physics in gpbikes to make it more playable for the casual gamer (something that I loudly applaud), frankly how many of us could lap the circuits that we have in gpbikes on a full blown race bike in real life at anything like the laptimes people are achieving on gpbikes?
My thinking on this is that gpbikes is a
simulation of real life motorcycle racing and as such it is very, very good. It is exceptional. But as a simulation I do personally feel that there should be a bit more of an accessible ability to powerslide the bikes. Particularly and specifically perhaps the 500s..?
Anyway, I think this is a very interesting and worthwhile debate.
I respect everyone's opinion on this because you guys are much more experienced on the "game" than I am. But this is my honest take on things at this early stage in acclimatising to gpbikes..
And don't get me wrong I do think the quality of simulation in gpbikes is truly superb. It is brilliant in fact.
grT :)
P.S. Max I think you are right about gp500..the physics in terms of controller inputs is more forgiving. I think it was designed that way for popular appeal. I agree the joystick movements are indeed like direct lean off +10. By contrast the joypad thumbstick inputs in gp500 are nice and tight as I suppose they should be. ;)
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 06, 2014, 12:01:41 PM
ok i agree they're not easy or very controllable but if it was implemented into gpb's it would be a disaster imo!
If it was implemented in anything approaching the ridiculous degree of powersliding ability witnessed in Milestone's motogp13/14 I would fairly rapidly give up on gpbikes Bob and return to playing gp500 full time..
That's not what any of us here is in anyway interested in I think.
What I would like to see is merely a slightly more controllable transition from the state of not powersliding the rear wheel to the state of sliding it..to mimic and reflect the real life scenario of powersliding. The 500cc grand prix 2-strokes powerslided on the throttle. If Cagiva had handed Eddie Lawson a cagiva that did not powerslide controllably at the beginning of the 1991 grand prix season he would have handed the bike back to cagiva and flown back to California.. ;)
Also another thought here is that by 1991 all the factories, yamaha, honda, suzuki and cagiva were running "big bang" engines.
Question: Are the "varese" physics in the game definitely modeled on the power delivery of a big bang engine? I strongly suspect, knowing PiBoSo's perfectionism in all this that this is definitely the case. I am only wondering because of Max's reference to the power delivery curve of the 500s making it much more difficult to execute controllable power-slides.. Just thinking aloud really. No doubt a silly question on my part..which I have probably already answered to myself. ::)
grT :)
Tracey, have you ridden the 1000 on GP bikes a lot? I think they have the right amount of powerslide. I'm strongly against putting more powersliding in for those bikes.
Also, I (respectfully :P) disagree with your comment "To an extent and to a degree powersliding and rear wheel steering is an integral part of the skills required to get a racing motorcycle round a race track at a competitive pace and lap time."
In over 100 trackdays, I've never seen a rider in front of me do a huge powerslide like you see in motogp or in video games. Including race winners. I've seen a lot of guys slide consistently at the exit of a turn, but it was more a wobble than "rear wheel steering" or a long powerslide.
Also, in the 500, very very few people actually managed to powerslide without crashing. Maybe 5 riders maximum per year. When I went to see the Assen 500 qualifications in 2000 and 2001, I remember only 4 or 5 riders doing proper powerslides: Rossi, Biaggi, Capirossi, Barros, and sometimes Checa.
So I think the amount of powersliding in GP bikes is fine.
You seem to have the knack for picking controversial subjects. Big bang engines ...
My understanding of them is that their main difference with respect to screamer engines is not in the power delivery curve (they dyno stuff, power or torque vs RPMs).
Their main advantage is in the fact that the unevenly spaced firings allow the tire more time between firing groups and it seems (not everybody agrees and the one that do, can't really explain why) that is beneficial.
Simplifying to death, it is as if over 1 second, a screamer fires 4 pulses (each of amplitude 1) spaced 0.25s.
A Big bang (extreme case, totally non real) would fire one big pulse of amplitude 4, and then nothing more. More realistic, could be 2 impulses of amplitude 2, spaced by 0.5s.
Notice that Little/Medium/Big/Giant bang, this does not affect the engine output in terms of delivered toque/power (assuming airbox and exhaust are retuned): the dyno chart is roughly the same. A big bang engine is not more powerful or more torque-happy, except in Yamaha's marketing speeches.
Now if we all agree the effect of big bang (or irregular firing) is that, then no, this cannot be simulated properly in GPB, as it would require a tire model much much more sophisticated than the current one (which is already plenty for a game). A rough workaround would boil down to give the big-bang bike slightly better tires. But who likes rough workarounds here ? :)
And as far as I've read, the real reasons of why a big bang is beneficial are still a non fully clarified subject.
MaX.
P.S.
EdouardB, I love you !
Love you too, Hornet
The point of a Big Bang is not to change the maximum torque or anything (it does not). It just makes the micro variations of torque on one cycle much smaller because of a better repartition of the accelerations of the 4 pistons at every rotation. Because after a certain RPM the torque transferred to the rear wheel comes much more from the inertia of the rotation than from combustion (confirmed by GP engineers Frits Overmars and Jan Thiel on numerous forums).
This video explains much better (Crossplane is basically an inline big bang): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_e_gC99Ql0
As for how easy the big bang 500s were compared to the screamers, it's been confirmed by many GP riders.
And as for the difference between a 500 and a four stroke, like Kevin Schwantz says: "a four stroke alone is easier than a 2 stroke with traction control" :D
Hmmm ... that video is what I call "yamaha marketing speech" (*), designed to make people by an R1 just because it has a crossplane something inside, and that sounds very cool.
The explanation relating to inertia/combustion torque is the one put forward by Masao Furusawa (Yamaha, at the time).
But along this he said that the crossplane advantage was in the fact that with irregular firings, the "combustion signal" was "less masked" by the "inertia signal" and hence more likely to be felt by the rider. That's one theory, the other is the one that relates to the tire preference for irregular firings.
None of the two theory has been ultimately proven to my knowledge. By this I mean that it is indeed possible that the riders prefer this or that (or event that they are faster with this or that), but I'm not sure somebody knows really why. Ducati more or less admitted they were trying big bang just to see if it works any better, without knowing why it should or should not work better.
People sceptical about the explanation argue that the inertia/combustion torque pluses are smoothed by the final transmission flexibility and damping (which does exist, for sure).
Also it seems that Michelin didn't ever notice a difference in tire wear between a big bang and a screamer ...
MaX.
(*)
In the video: "Paradigm shift" ? Big bang/irregular firing has surely been used way before the M1 in racing bikes .... ::)
Quote from: EdouardB on June 06, 2014, 03:00:12 PM
Tracey, have you ridden the 1000 on GP bikes a lot? I think they have the right amount of powerslide. I'm strongly against putting more powersliding in for those bikes.
No but I will do. Everyone is telling me they are easier to powerslide so I'll give them a proper go.. :)
Quote from: EdouardB on June 06, 2014, 03:00:12 PM
Also, I (respectfully :P) disagree with your comment "To an extent and to a degree powersliding and rear wheel steering is an integral part of the skills required to get a racing motorcycle round a race track at a competitive pace and lap time."
In over 100 trackdays, I've never seen a rider in front of me do a huge powerslide like you see in motogp or in video games. Including race winners. I've seen a lot of guys slide consistently at the exit of a turn, but it was more a wobble than "rear wheel steering" or a long powerslide.
I'm not talking about "huge" powerslides though as I explained in my post. But on many circuits on certain bends racers will often use a bit of rear wheel steering to adjust their trajectory onto the straight and up to the edge of the track..in full racing conditions.
Quote from: EdouardB on June 06, 2014, 03:00:12 PM
Also, in the 500, very very few people actually managed to powerslide without crashing. Maybe 5 riders maximum per year. When I went to see the Assen 500 qualifications in 2000 and 2001, I remember only 4 or 5 riders doing proper powerslides: Rossi, Biaggi, Capirossi, Barros, and sometimes Checa.
Fair comment. It wasn't an easy thing to do. But taking up your definition of "proper" powerslides..many other riders did rear wheel steer but to a much less pronounced degree. Simon Buckmaster on the RS500 Honda used rear wheel steering. I think they all did, but to a much lesser degree. Possibly not as visible from the track-side.
Quote from: EdouardB on June 06, 2014, 03:00:12 PM
So I think the amount of powersliding in GP bikes is fine.
That's fair enough. I hear what you are saying. :)
Can anybody direct me to a gpbikes' video where a 500cc bike is rear wheel steering on the power? I would be very interested in having a look at this..out of genuine curiousity.
grT
On the controversial subject of 500cc "Big Bang" engines I found the following article which sort of confirms what my understanding was..
http://ultimatemotorcycling.com/honda_nsr500_motogp_racing_history/
"A big surprise arrived in 1990 was the advent of the 'Big Bang' engine. In this configuration the firing of each cylinder was offset 90°, meaning that instead of each cylinder firing at 90° intervals, each set of two cylinders fired 180° apart. The slight reduction in maximum power that resulted was more than offset by the improved torque characteristics caused by the increased amplitude in combustion torque waves. Traction during acceleration was markedly improved.
This was a major turning point in engine development, and the NSR's engineers experimented with various firing orders and crank angle/ignition timing settings. As the bikes became easier to ride, lap times began to drop. Usable power became more important than maximum power. Chassis upgrades included such trick parts as expansion chambers and other parts made of titanium, helping to reduce machine weight by more than 15kg.
Around this time another gifted rider appeared on the scene. Mick Doohan had been battling with Yamaha's Wayne Rainey and Suzuki's Kevin Schwantz, finishing 3rd in the championship in 1990 and 2nd in 1991. His time had now come.
By the time 1992 rolled around, a new 68° irregular firing order was being used. Each pair of cylinders fired simultaneously at 68° and 292° intervals. The resulting irregular combustion torque wave shapes delivered markedly superior traction. And just by chance, thanks to the crank phasing, the 112° V angle cancelled out the theoretical primary vibration, eliminating the need for a balancer shaft. For the first time since 1986 this allowed a return to a triple-shaft engine, and a more rigid and precise engine structure. This new engine had a unique exhaust note, leading observers to call it a 'screamer' engine. In the bike's first outing, the rain-sodden Japan GP, Mick Doohan rode the 'screamer' to victory. This win was especially impressive because prior to the screamer engine the NSR500 was difficult to ride in the wet."
One last thing from me on this..
I found this article which makes quite interesting reading on the subject of rear wheel steering from past to present:
Marquez and the science of slide
By Bob Gray
Image by Repsol Media
http://www.bikesportnews.com/features-detail.cfm?featureid=160
"Back in the days of 500cc Grand Prix racing, spinning the rear wheel as you exited corners was an essential skill. These days, we don't see it much, with a few notable exceptions. Why is that? Are electronics to blame once again, or is there some other reason why riders favour backing it in over sliding it out?
We've seen many different approaches to cornering on a motorcycle over the years. Knee-up, knee-down, hanging-off and sitting bolt upright and, of course, Mick Doohan's unique 'all of the above' approach. And to be fair, each method works in one way or another. However, there's one style of cornering that has simultaneously terrified and amazed racing audiences for as long as most people can remember – sliding the rear end. So why are so few riders doing it these days?
Take two very different riders like Jorge Lorenzo and Marc Márquez. It is well known that Yamaha bury tiny rails in the track before each MotoGP round, which is why Lorenzo's bike never gets out of line. On the other hand, Márquez doesn't mind lighting up the rear at any opportunity. It's important to recognise that this is only our perception, though. Watch closely and you'll notice that he doesn't drift the rear out of every corner. It's not like watching a speedway race. And that's important, because it suggests that it's something he's choosing to do. If it was down to a lack of grip, everyone would be spinning. If it was his riding style or it was something to do with the bike, it would happen at every single corner.
So what makes bikes corner? Leaning for a start, but that isn't the exclusive reason. What about steering; everyone knows about counter steering and how it is used to make a bike turn. Geometry? It's true to say that changing the set-up of a bike changes the way it corners, but a bike that is badly set-up or designed still goes around corners – it just does it slower. In fact, bikes corner for all of the above reasons, and more besides, which is partly why it seems such an unapproachable subject.
Let's start by looking at steering. Most bikes have a steering range of ±20–35°, but it's rare to use that much in 'normal' riding conditions. In fact on a normal road ride it would be unusual to use much more than ±15° – and that's pulling out of junctions. On track, it's even less. If we ignore the fact that bikes lean for a moment and just look at the steering, what happens when you turn the bars? The front wheel points in a different direction to the frame and rear wheel plane and leans slightly. If we slowly push the bike forwards it's easy to appreciate the fact that the bike is going to move in a circle because the front wheel is steering it to.
The radius of that circle can be found by drawing an extended line through both wheel spindles in the direction of the turn. The point where the two lines cross marks the centre of that circle – the point about which the bike will turn. It's worth emphasising that this only holds true at very low speeds, and only when the bike is upright. It's also important to recognise that while we may be pushing the bike at a constant speed as far as the speedo is concerned, the bike's velocity vector has changed because it's accelerating towards the centre of the circle. It has to be.
Newton told us bodies in motion carry on in a straight line unless some force causes them not to.
In this case, a force generated at the front tyre by the steering is pushing it sideways. We can work out how much acceleration there is by squaring the velocity and dividing it by the radius of the turn. If we look at a real world example, the radius of the ridden line at the apex of Donington's Melbourne loop (not the track itself), is about 20 metres. And at the apex of that turn you can expect a true speed over ground of around 49km/h. To work out the bike's lateral acceleration at that point we square the velocity (in metres per second) and divide by the radius v2/r. That works out as an acceleration of 9.262m/s2, which we can turn into g by dividing it by 9.81m/s2, which works out at 0.94g.
But if you've watched bikes cornering at the Melbourne loop you'll know they're really on their side – and there's a good reason for this. At less than walking pace, a bike can turn without any perceivable lean angle simply by turning the steering. Any faster though and the bike wants to fall 'out' of the corner. This is because it's balanced above the tyre contact points. If something causes them to accelerate sideways, they move out from under the bike and it appears to fall the other way.
Sticking with the Melbourne loop example, the contact points are trying to accelerate towards the inside of the corner at 9.262m/s2. But there's no lateral force trying to push the bike's centre of mass to one side too. So to create that force we lean the bike into the corner. As the bike's centre of mass is no longer above the line drawn between the contact patches, the bike tries to fall that way. The 'falling force' is proportional to the centre of mass's horizontal displacement from the contact patch. In other words, the more the bike leans, the more it wants to fall. This is good because the faster we go, or the tighter the radius of turn we make, the more the tyres try to accelerate away from under us. It follows then that the more cornering force we generate at the tyres, the more we need to lean to balance it out.
We can work out the lean angle based on the lateral acceleration of the tyres and the vertical acceleration caused by gravity by finding the arctangent of the lateral acceleration (in g). In the case of the Melbourne Loop bike that works out at 43.23° (Tan–1[0.94] = 43.23). So in order for our bike not to flip out of the corner, it needs to be leaning at 43.23°. This might sound low if you've ever watched a bike go round the Melbourne Loop, but the 43.23° we're talking about is not measured through the plane of the wheels, it's measure on a plane coincident with the combined centre of mass and both tyre contact points.
This happens because when you lean a bike over the contact point moves away from the centre line of the tyre towards the edge. In reality, this means that unless we were riding on thin discs of metal, the lean angle between the centre of mass and the contact points will always be less than the lean angle through the bike's chassis. And the wider the tyres, the worse that gets.
While we're on the subject of lean, there are two more things to consider. The first is that when we lean, the force that causes the tyres to accelerate sideways is no longer caused by steering with the bars (actually it is a little bit, but not like when the bike was upright) – it's generated by camber thrust from the tyres.
Camber thrust comes about because the tyre deforms as it's pressed into the track surface. Viewed from the rear, the distance from the outer edge of the contact patch (closest to the edge of the tyre) to the wheel spindle will always be less than the distance from the inside edge to the wheel spindle. As the tyre has to turn with the wheel, this means the edge of the contact patch with the larger radius is going to try to cover ground per wheel revolution more quickly than the edge with the smaller radius. And the only way it can attempt to do this is to turn about some axis.
The axis it tries to turn about is actually the same as if you replaced the tyre with a cone that hit the floor in the same spot as the contact patch. And if you imagine where the point of that would be, that's where the tyre would like to rotate around. But it can't. Not least because there's another tyre at the other end of the bike trying to do the same thing, but also because for the lean angles we deal with, the radius of that turn would be impossibly tight. So what happens is a massive compromise that creates slip within the contact patch itself and that is also part of the reason why tyres tear up in the way that they do.
From a riding point of view, though, the speed you go round a corner is limited by grip, which is controlled by the tyre and the surface it's rolling over. In order to get round a corner, we need to generate enough lateral acceleration for the bike to follow an arc that keeps us on the track and out of the gravel. Most of the cornering force comes from camber thrust created by leaning, which is good as the bike needs to lean over in order not to be flipped out of the corner. The steering will turn slightly into the corner based on the lean angle, geometry and tyre size, and that also creates some input.
When things go well, we hit the line we want. But it's important to recognise that, even though you don't feel it, the bike is slipping slightly all the time. So, although you're on the right line, the bike is trying to turn on a tighter one but is slipping out to the correct one. As you get close to the tyres' grip limit, the amount of slip increases and you get the sensation of drifting off line. If the grip at one wheel suddenly increases faster than the other you begin the process of what can become a high- or low-side.
If we go back to the question on sliding or not, the question really becomes, how do I get the bike where I want it? The simple answer is to steer it like anyone else, but racers sometimes need to hold a tighter line – to get the bike lined up for the next corner, for example. This is where rear-wheel steering comes in. Because when a bike is really wheel steering, things almost work backwards.
Think about it like this: although the steering angle at the bars reduces the faster we go, the front wheel of our bike still has some input when we corner because it points into the corner. As the rear end drifts outwards, we actually end up with a negative steer angle at the front (because the front wheel is pointing in the direction of travel it is negative compared to the plane of the rear wheel). However, the rear wheel is now pointing and leaning much more in the direction of the turn – and has more weight on it because we've applied power to get it to spin. The weight, angle and camber of the rear wheel mean it's responsible for the majority of the lateral acceleration, which is also now linked to the normal rotation of the wheel as that's pointing towards the inside of the turn.
When exiting a corner and holding a tight line ready for the next one, having the rear wheel sliding out means much of the cornering force is controlled by the throttle (rather than leaning and using the bars). It risks a crash, of course, and gives the tyre a harder time, but if a rider feels the time/effort saved is worth it, that's what they'll do.
As for which is faster... that's a tricky question, especially these days when there are tens of thousands of pounds of technology being used to prevent the rear wheel sliding. The simple answer is that it depends on the rider – not their talent, their confidence. They have to be sure of both the chassis and engine, and to be confident that the advantage outweighs the consequences. That's the most likely reason we don't see it as much as we used to. It's hard to get the engineers to disable systems that work so well, because by leaving them on and riding at the controlled limit of adhesion means all the other factors can be managed effectively over the course of the race. It takes a confident rider to argue against that."
When is the GP Bikes novel coming out? ;D
Quote"Back in the days of 500cc Grand Prix racing, spinning the rear wheel as you exited corners was an essential skill. These days, we don't see it much, with a few notable exceptions. Why is that? Are electronics to blame once again, or is there some other reason why riders favour backing it in over sliding it out?
better tyres.. more grip, better brakes, brake harder and deeper with slipper clutches etc
think on the 2stroke 500s they tried to allways be in the powerband.. so if you give it a fistfull its gonna spin up.. whats the saying? its not who gets on the throttle first that wins its who gets on full throttle!! :) my rear tyre slides and steps out when im racing, darley moor is all stop, start, so its hard on the gas out of slow corners.. it happens. not highsided yet but its coming lol
Hornet, fair points. I agree about having the whole thing being dampened by the transmission.
Tracey, you too ! I see a lot of power slides in motogp though. Overall, the point I wanted to make is that a powerslide should be easier on a 4 stroke compared to a 2 stoke.
fuck it, everyone has valid points these days :-P
Tracey, give the 1000 a try fast ;-) show us a picture of you playing them to prove it (never mind that comment)
Doohan's case is interesting because he went away from the big bang engines and won while criville struggled. I think its really a rider's preference thing.
I remember Christian Sarron telling me though that the big bang he tested for Yamaha in 93 was much easier than the screamers he used in racing in the late 80s. But it could be from other factors as well... Tyres, better Cdi with smoother valve controls, etc...
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 06, 2014, 04:08:19 PM
The slight reduction in maximum power that resulted was more than offset by the improved torque characteristics caused by the increased amplitude in combustion torque waves.
The above sentence does not explain why "increased amplitude in combustion torque waves" leads to "improved torque characteristics".
And the reason is that nobody seems to know for sure.
By the way, "improved torque characteristics" is extremely vague. What does it mean ?
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 06, 2014, 04:59:25 PM
I found this article which makes quite interesting reading on the subject of rear wheel steering from past to present:
That article is one of the few that does not make gigantic blunders trying to explain how things work on a bike. Kudos to the author !
Everything he says, from 1st line to last, is explained in precise terms in the book I mentioned (Motorcycle Dynamics, V.Cossalter).
Steering like this is faster or not ? I think it depends a lot on the technical characteristics of the bike.
On some years it has been more or less mandatory, on some other years it was better to avoid it.
To do it on corners where an error can make you a vegetable surely requires extreme confidence and predictability.
And in terms of predictability, today's bikes are light-years ahead than 500cc bikes. In the 500cc races I recall, there were no more than 4 riders
doing it for real at a given one time.
MaX.
Quote from: EdouardB on June 06, 2014, 03:00:12 PM
Tracey, have you ridden the 1000 on GP bikes a lot? I think they have the right amount of powerslide. I'm strongly against putting more powersliding in for those bikes.
Also, I (respectfully :P) disagree with your comment "To an extent and to a degree powersliding and rear wheel steering is an integral part of the skills required to get a racing motorcycle round a race track at a competitive pace and lap time."
In over 100 trackdays, I've never seen a rider in front of me do a huge powerslide like you see in motogp or in video games. Including race winners. I've seen a lot of guys slide consistently at the exit of a turn, but it was more a wobble than "rear wheel steering" or a long powerslide.
Also, in the 500, very very few people actually managed to powerslide without crashing. Maybe 5 riders maximum per year. When I went to see the Assen 500 qualifications in 2000 and 2001, I remember only 4 or 5 riders doing proper powerslides: Rossi, Biaggi, Capirossi, Barros, and sometimes Checa.
So I think the amount of powersliding in GP bikes is fine.
As someone who raced 2/350 machines in the 80s (TZs and Rotax 256 engined) I can say without any doubt it is a lot easier to feel yourself sliding a bike on the exit of a corner than to see another rider doing it in front of you (unless you happen to be the poor sod following a nutter who is taking a long look over their shoulder whilst leaving a black line on the road... ). Modern tyres are no different, they get maximum grip when slipping around 5% and that 5% is what you feel through your arse cheeks...
Quote from: Allen on June 09, 2014, 04:26:51 PM
As someone who raced 2/350 machines in the 80s (TZs and Rotax 256 engined) I can say without any doubt it is a lot easier to feel yourself sliding a bike on the exit of a corner than to see another rider doing it in front of you
Just to be sure I get your point right, you mean that it's easier to control a slide being on the bike (for real) than watching it sliding (like in a simulation) ?
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 09, 2014, 04:38:09 PM
Quote from: Allen on June 09, 2014, 04:26:51 PM
As someone who raced 2/350 machines in the 80s (TZs and Rotax 256 engined) I can say without any doubt it is a lot easier to feel yourself sliding a bike on the exit of a corner than to see another rider doing it in front of you
Just to be sure I get your point right, you mean that it's easier to control a slide being on the bike (for real) than watching it sliding (like in a simulation) ?
MaX.
I mean it's easier to feel IRL than see it and it's certainly easier to control IRL than it is in a sim with no haptic feedback (although if the traction control is set to give 5% slip, it should always happen anyway). As soon as I feel the bike start to move I would be adjusting the weight I'm putting on the pegs and bars and shifting around to keep things rolling without having to back off the throttle... which is reserved for those moments when things have got really out of shape!
Quote from: Allen on June 09, 2014, 06:10:08 PM
I mean it's easier to feel IRL than see it and it's certainly easier to control IRL than it is in a sim with no haptic feedback (although if the traction control is set to give 5% slip, it should always happen anyway). As soon as I feel the bike start to move I would be adjusting the weight I'm putting on the pegs and bars and shifting around to keep things rolling without having to back off the throttle... which is reserved for those moments when things have got really out of shape!
OK, I do agree with you then: lack of feedback is exactly the reason I was pointing as #1 to explain why sliding is hard in GPB.
MaX.
P.S.
I doubt traction control can be set in terms of x% slip, it's surely much more complex than that.
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 09, 2014, 06:14:22 PM
Quote from: Allen on June 09, 2014, 06:10:08 PM
I mean it's easier to feel IRL than see it and it's certainly easier to control IRL than it is in a sim with no haptic feedback (although if the traction control is set to give 5% slip, it should always happen anyway). As soon as I feel the bike start to move I would be adjusting the weight I'm putting on the pegs and bars and shifting around to keep things rolling without having to back off the throttle... which is reserved for those moments when things have got really out of shape!
OK, I do agree with you then: lack of feedback is exactly the reason I was pointing as #1 to explain why sliding is hard in GPB.
MaX.
P.S.
I doubt traction control can be set in terms of x% slip, it's surely much more complex than that.
I'd hope that that is precisely what the TC system is doing, if I call for 100% throttle it should give me the maximum amount the tyre will actually transmit (excluding any consideration of wheelies etc) and that should be around 5% slip. if that happens to correspond to actually being 50% throttle, then that's what I'd expect (a few years ago Michael Rutter said something along the lines of he found it hard to persuade himself to just open the throttle 100% and trust the TC to not just give him 100%... ).
It would actually be interesting if Piboso could output both rider applied and ecu applied throttle.. then you could see just how much the TC can cut things
Does the new xbox pad rumble/vibrate in different ways at all?
Ladies?? ??? ::)
That could give pretty good feedback as to what the tyres are doing.. If the vibrations and rumbles could be tuned to suit. For the riders knee too as klax said!
Without wanting to open up all this debate all over again..Allen have you ever played the gp500 pc game?
In that game controlled power-slides are easier to initiate and control. Although it will bite you big time if you pannick and come off the throttle too early. In that game I can "feel" the slide more discernably and act to control it. In gpbikes the transition from not sliding the rear to sliding feels too abrupt and and sharp to me. This transition in real life I think is more gradual and more controllable. A rider's response to rear wheel slides in real life is, as a result, more intuitive and is a more natural response I personally believe. Because at speed feeding in the throttle on the exit to a bend the rate of progression into a rear wheel slide if you are using the throttle carefully I think is more gradual..
What is your honest opinion on all this as an ex racer?
grT
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 09, 2014, 07:45:29 PM
Does the new xbox pad rumble/vibrate in different ways at all?
Ladies?? ??? ::)
That could give pretty good feedback as to what the tyres are doing.. If the vibrations and rumbles could be tuned to suit. For the riders knee too as klax said!
In gp500 there is an audible noise I think when the rear wheel begins to spin up. But this has been lost in time in the progression from DX6 through DX7 to DX9. There was an audible "cue" in the original game I believe.
grT
P.S. I think the rear wheel slides in gp500 are slightly too easy to initiate. I want something harder but still accessible if you are really careful with the throttle. Particularly on the 500cc 2 strokes..otherwise we're not arguably riding them properly..as god intended. And by saying that I do not mean lurid 100 ft powerslides. I mean a usable degree of rear wheel steering exiting appropriate bends under the right circumstances..but with a "bite" if you misjudge it. ;)
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 09, 2014, 07:45:29 PM
Does the new xbox pad rumble/vibrate in different ways at all?
Ladies?? ??? ::)
That could give pretty good feedback as to what the tyres are doing.. If the vibrations and rumbles could be tuned to suit. For the riders knee too as klax said!
I am driving with a wheel now as you know Bob. But tbh I wasn't getting any force feedback effects with my xbox one pad..maybe I needed a plug-in or something? I'm not sure.
My 2 cents is its hard to simulate because like allen said you cant shift your weight around the bike and use the footpegs.. Also having your knee on the floor can help control these things.
Also in most cases we are all controling the throttle on a trigger with this much modulation... | |
I have know idea how the right balance could be found.. Tough and good debate! ;)
Quote from: Allen on June 09, 2014, 07:08:57 PM
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 09, 2014, 06:14:22 PM
I doubt traction control can be set in terms of x% slip, it's surely much more complex than that.
I'd hope that that is precisely what the TC system is doing, if I call for 100% throttle it should give me the maximum amount the tyre will actually transmit (excluding any consideration of wheelies etc) and that should be around 5% slip. if that happens to correspond to actually being 50% throttle, then that's what I'd expect (a few years ago Michael Rutter said something along the lines of he found it hard to persuade himself to just open the throttle 100% and trust the TC to not just give him 100%... ).
It can't be that simple, for the simple reason that a % slip doesn't give you the full picture.
First of all, a % slip is valid only for longitudinal slip (slip when you accelerate or brake on a straight line, no cornering).
To quantify lateral slip you use an angle (sideslip angle), which is obviously not a %.
And even if you're tempted to translate the lateral slip into a % (for example dividing the lateral slip by an arbitrary "maximum" lateral slip angle), then you have another issue: the two slip quantities combines. The tire can only produce a total force that can be used to generate a longitudinal force only, a lateral force only or a combination of the two.
The more you use the tire to accelerate/brake, the less you have to corner (and vice versa).
Eventually you could have something that tries to estimate the total force currently being generated by the tire and then compare this to the total maximum force admissible by the tire.
But even this doesn't translate to something easily understandable: that's why on all the TC systems you don't have a % setting or any other quantified setting, you just have a bunch of levels, 0 being less TC than N. No further details are provided.
Also, what influences a lot the feeling the TCS returns to the rider is not only "how much it allows you to slide", but also other things like how fast he kicks in (and kicks out): these are dynamics properties of the system, not captured by a simple "5%" setting.
GPB's TCS only has 3 exposed parameters (Min/Max slip and ThrottleSmooth, undocumented) but internally I believe GPB has many more.
Quote from: Allen on June 09, 2014, 07:08:57 PM
It would actually be interesting if Piboso could output both rider applied and ecu applied throttle.. then you could see just how much the TC can cut things
That would be interesting, but its more a curiosity than something else. However it could be useful to detect potential weakness of the current TCS.
Anyway, these quantities are surely available in the bike's telemetry, so it may make some sense to have them in GPB too.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 09, 2014, 07:45:29 PM
Does the new xbox pad rumble/vibrate in different ways at all?
It has some rumble motors under the triggers. To be honest I don't know if these replace the old rumble motors or are additional to them.
At any rate, Piboso was not very favourable of even using the old rumble thing to provide extra feedback (rider knee down, or wheel sliding, whatever).
If I recall correctly, there's also a technical issue (something like rumble not being usable with xinput), TBC.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 09, 2014, 08:00:43 PM
I am driving with a wheel now as you know Bob. But tbh I wasn't getting any force feedback effects with my xbox one pad..maybe I needed a plug-in or something? I'm not sure.
GPB does not support rumble (what you call FFB, improperly) at the moment.
GPB supports only FFB, but this can't be redirected to the rumble thing of a 360 pad (or similar) unless you use some tweaked drivers.
Which, IMO, makes zero sense: the signal you will "hear" on your rumble motors will be the steering torque at the handlbars ... hmmm, yeah ...
MaX.
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 09, 2014, 08:05:01 PM
Also in most cases we are all controling the throttle on a trigger with this much modulation... | |
I have know idea how the right balance could be found.. Tough and good debate! ;)
I agree Bob. With a trigger throttle and brake control is a less precise science. There's no argument about that. You haven't got the same length of movement in a trigger..I don't think there's really any debate to be had about that. It's a fact I think.
I think if this is going to be done at all it can only be done by careful experimentation and testing. I think it goes without saying that this is a difficult & complicated effect to build into the "game". To be fair also I think many people do not believe it is something that even needs to be addressed in the first place.
This is why I value the opinion of real life racers so much. Particularly guys who raced back in the 1980/90s. People like Allen.
grT :)
OK Max, friction circles etc... .... it's just that whilst trying to simplify the basics of traction control, it's obviously NOT that simple, but the basic premise of max grip is achieved with around 5% slip as a total of grip slip ratio holds (so if you have a neutral throttle on and a nice two wheel drift, don't expect to be able to add any more throttle unless you can stand the bike onto the fatter part of the tyre first), first principle of trail braking, more lean = less brake, first principle of acceleration less lean = more throttle (up to a point.. ). And yes as a tyre wears the grip changes and so do the traction limits, so as anyone who's wound open a superbike whilst bolt upright on a freezing day with a relatively worn tyre knows, every tyre has a limit... ultimately the way a tyre slides past it's grip limit is what gives a good feel (decent suspension setup helps there too).
An honest opinion, TC should be banned, it teaches bad riding practice (and we all know what happens when it fails... don't we Mr Pedrosa!)
grT, Yes I have GP500, yes it's easier to initiate and hold a slide and yes, I think the one drop off with GP-Bikes is and always has been (at least for the last 6 years I've been trying it) the lack of any rumble to hint at traction limits, I've tried several times to play with a wheel/direct lean, etc.... and it really does nothing for me.. but then I have never managed to get the hang of the on board view either (again some feedback would probably help that too)
Tracey you should take a look at what Hawk uk is doing with track surfaces, mallory park thread.. I fully understand what you want from gpbikes but at the same time its hard for me to commit to an idea and direction with physics.. Simply because everytime I play gpbikes something different happens.. Eg. When I started playing I couldnt do this and that but now alot of things make sense.. An the physics model is still suprising and impressing me everytime I turn it on!
Like iv said before iv pulled off some epic slides so far.. No idea how but I have lol.
Another thing.. When I do a nice lap and it feels fast and that I cant go any faster.. I look at the leaderboard and somebody is 8 seconds faster over a lap.. That tells me there is much much more to learn about this bike sim before I can really say this or that isnt right!
Quote from: Allen on June 09, 2014, 09:34:47 PM
..ratio holds (so if you have a neutral throttle on and a nice two wheel drift, don't expect to be able to add any more throttle unless..
"Two wheel drifts". Now you're talking Allen!
My father reminisced to me about two wheel drifts.. I like what you have to say very much already Allen. ;)
@ Bob: yes I agree with all that you are saying m8.
gpbikes is epic isn't it? Life without gpbikes would be rather dull for me now. A bit like a world where Lamb Dupiaza had never been invented..
I have a huge amount to learn on the "game". A mountain to climb. Climbing that mountain is going to be a memorable and crazily enjoyable journey I think.
Dumbfounded and in awe of what PiBoSo and his team have achieved if I'm honest..
Incredible project gpbbikes. Truly groundbreaking in fact. Don't take up hang gliding or anything similar PiBoSo..for all our sakes! ;)
grT :)
Quote from: BOBR6 84 on June 09, 2014, 09:48:39 PM
Tracey you should take a look at what Hawk uk is doing with track surfaces, mallory park thread.. I fully understand what you want from gpbikes but at the same time its hard for me to commit to an idea and direction with physics.. Simply because everytime I play gpbikes something different happens.. Eg. When I started playing I couldnt do this and that but now alot of things make sense.. An the physics model is still suprising and impressing me everytime I turn it on!
I can tell you from experience that if I stop playing GPB for 1 month, then it takes me 1 month to get to the same times I was able to do before.
I may be slow and old, but it gives an idea.
MaX.
Quote from: Allen on June 09, 2014, 04:26:51 PM
As someone who raced 2/350 machines in the 80s (TZs and Rotax 256 engined) I can say without any doubt it is a lot easier to feel yourself sliding a bike on the exit of a corner than to see another rider doing it in front of you
I totally agree. But I was talking about the "huge" powerslides that most games allow you to do nowadays, not the slight wheel spin, and those are visible when following someone.
Also, I agree about what you said with the 5% spin, I remember an HRC interview saying that the maximum traction is achieved at around 5/10% wheel spin.
My point was just that 2 strokes should be harder to slide than 4 strokes in my opinion.
Of all the bikes I've ridden or still ride on the track (TZ250, TZ350, TZ750, FZR750R 0W01, R6, R1 - yes, I'm a happy man :P), I've found it quite easy to have a very slight wheel spin on the R6 compared to, let's say, a TZ350 (where I've only had really short wheel spins).
Allen, I'm curious to know what you think about the 4 strokes/ 2 strokes comparison in that regard.
I'm saying all that because in GP bikes the 4 strokes are easy to powerslide, the 2 strokes are not, but maybe that's a good thing. The amount of powerslide in GP500 is ridiculeous imo.
And yes, some haptic feedback would be great :)
Quote from: EdouardB on June 10, 2014, 08:22:27 AM
Also, I agree about what you said with the 5% spin, I remember an HRC interview saying that the maximum traction is achieved at around 5/10% wheel spin.
That's a "layman's terms" condensed explantion, stemming from curves like this one (don't know which tire type this graphs refers to, just as an example):
(http://nupet.daelt.ct.utfpr.edu.br/_ontomos/paginas/AMESim4.2.0/libtr/doc/html/submodels/TRTY1A_fichiers/image004.png)
Once again, the 5% stuff refers to longitudinal slip, not lateral one.
Quote from: EdouardB on June 10, 2014, 08:22:27 AM
My point was just that 2 strokes should be harder to slide than 4 strokes in my opinion.
I'd say 2 strokes are harder to slide in a controllable manner, but I guess that was what you meant anyway.
Quote from: EdouardB on June 10, 2014, 08:22:27 AM
I'm saying all that because in GP bikes the 4 strokes are easy to powerslide, the 2 strokes are not, but maybe that's a good thing. The amount of powerslide in GP500 is ridiculeous imo.
I'm gonna marry you :-*
MaX.
Yes I was talking about how controllable (or not :P) it is.
Thanks for the graph, pretty awesome stuff.
I also would like to add that I am NOT pretending to be some GP rider or anything. I'm just an amateur who is fortunate enough to have ridden some unusual bikes on the track and I'm not crazy fast. And I don't want to sound like a "know-it-all", because I simply don't know it all.
I'm just trying to give my feedback to try to improve the game :)
Quote from: EdouardB on June 10, 2014, 09:27:11 AM
I also would like to add that I am NOT pretending to be some GP rider or anything. I'm just an amateur who is fortunate enough to have ridden some unusual bikes on the track and I'm not crazy fast. And I don't want to sound like a "know-it-all", because I simply don't know it all.
I'm just trying to give my feedback to try to improve the game :)
I think your contribution to this discussion is a very worthy EdouardB particularly bearing in mind your experience in riding so many assorted racing motorcycles.
In defence of the gp500 pc game I wouldn't personally call the ability to power-slide and rear wheel steer in the game "ridiculous" but I would describe it as exaggerated from real life. I think if you wish to experience the "ridiculous" look no further that Milestone's motogp13/13 games.. ;)
As BOBR6 rightly says I am new to the gpbikes simulation and I have a lot to learn. I fully accept that.
I am going to take a back-seat on this discussion and listen to those who are more qualified to comment than I am. Both from the perspective of real life racing and from more advanced experience of gpbikes. However I do think this is a very interesting discussion.
grT
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 10, 2014, 10:17:44 AMI think if you wish to experience the "ridiculous" look no further that Milestone's motogp13/13 games.. ;)
I tried the demo. The powersliding was so ridiculeous that I actually had a good laugh playing the game :P
Quote from: EdouardB on June 10, 2014, 09:04:01 AM
Thanks for the graph, pretty awesome stuff.
I think I have now found the proper reference to understand the parameters of Piboso's tire model.
I can draw the equivalent graph for GPB tires (graphs actually, as the above is only for longitudinal slip).
Quote from: EdouardB on June 10, 2014, 09:27:11 AM
I also would like to add that I am NOT pretending to be some GP rider or anything. I'm just an amateur who is fortunate enough to have ridden some unusual bikes on the track and I'm not crazy fast. And I don't want to sound like a "know-it-all", because I simply don't know it all.
I'm just trying to give my feedback to try to improve the game :)
I personally have zero track experience, so I'll always listen to whoever has done even a single lap on a track.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 10, 2014, 10:17:44 AM
I am going to take a back-seat on this discussion and listen to those who are more qualified to comment than I am. Both from the perspective of real life racing and from more advanced experience of gpbikes.
Don't ! I think it's useful to have the point of view of people who just discovered GPB: most here have followed GPB development for years, so our point of view may be a bit biased.
And from the comments I've read, I think you're more qualified than a fair share of old timers here. I won't name names though :)
But try not too focus too much on the 500cc: it's surely the hardest bike to ride in GPB and it has some problems that need to be fixed.
MaX.
EdouardB , highly simplified, two strokes tend to have a smaller, peakier power band to play with that probably makes it harder to hold a controlled slide... having said that, it does depend an enormous amount on what the tyres are designed to do whilst sliding, a radial should be worse in that regard and usually a little bias ply helps. In tyre terms I'll take a tyre with a good feel and a forgiving nature over a tyre with slightly better peak grip and fall off a cliff slide, any day.. Take the TZ350, depending on how the one you've ridden was set up (what pipes, carbs and barrels etc) it could be anything from reasonably docile to extremely peaky (the one I rode had Lectron flat slides, F Barrels, and F2 pipes that gave it a nice easy power delivery, when we ran it as a 250 it was on original pipes (G Barrels and a smaller set of lectrons) and was really quite peaky. My Armstrong on the other hand I always ran with the peakiest power delivery it gave (wider opening disc valves and a set of pipes with a narrower power band for more top end), but it was always easier to control slides with the Rotax engine, possibly due to the fact it fires both cylinders at the same time (effectively like a 250 single)
I never raced 4 strokes (the only 4 stroke I ever took on track was a classic 250 K2 Honda with around 25-30bhp.. still outran a YVPS 350 Yamaha around Snetterton.. actually I tell a lie, I did intend to race a CBX550, but gave it up as a bad job after testing it once... and the thought of the cost of rebuilding if I bent it put me off)... but the majority of my road bikes have been 4 strokes and I have been known to get the back end moving about whilst riding on the road (I'm not really a nutter, I just like riding fast)
Max, the graphs, yep wonderful, but it's extremely hard to measure anything other than longitudinal grip/slip for obvious reasons, that doesn't mean that same slip/grip doesn't apply in any other direction. Simply put, if your tyre is spinning (so it has any longitudinal slip) and the bike is leaned over, it's pretty much a given that the tyre must be moving sideways as well (would be lovely if it didn't as you would never be able to get high sided!). It is possible that the grip fall off needs to change (again you can exchange peak for fall off and get a better, more forgiving tyre that is just as fast but easier to cope with (so more sliding but less falling off).
At the end of the day you can do as much maths as you like, it doesn't really help to get to a point of being able to "ride" better in a sim with no haptic feedback.. and riding a bike really is all about feel (dumb as it may sound, I'd really like to see some feedback, and the removal of the limit on lean angle... if I want to ride off the edge of the tyres, I should be able to.. but I should get enough feedback to tell me I'm about to, so I don't... )
Allen, thanks for the reply. The TZ350 I ride is completely original (including carbs) and very very peaky (it's perfectly tuned though), much more than the 1992 TZ 250 (V2) I also ride. The 250 though has reed valves and exhaust valves (stock), which help tremendously with making the engine have more mid range and somewhat easier despite having much more power than the 350.
Having said that, even on the 250 I don't make the rear slide much at all. It's way harder to slide than my R6.
I agree about the haptic feedback but I don't know how Piboso could recreate the feeling of being on the max lean angle (that mix of high grip and slight sliding at the same time is complicated to do on a PC controller) :)
Quote from: Allen on June 10, 2014, 01:04:48 PM
Max, the graphs, yep wonderful, but it's extremely hard to measure anything other than longitudinal grip/slip for obvious reasons
Well actually these quantities get measured a lot. It's thanks to these measures that you can end up with a Pacejka tire model (like the one used by Piboso games).
Tire makers and researchers have facilities to carry out this kind of measures (pure longitudinal slip, pure lateral slip, combined long/lat slip, at different normal loads, at different camber angles, etc).
Quote from: Allen on June 10, 2014, 01:04:48 PM
that doesn't mean that same slip/grip doesn't apply in any other direction
Never said that, of course.
Quote from: Allen on June 10, 2014, 01:04:48 PM
Simply put, if your tyre is spinning (so it has any longitudinal slip) and the bike is leaned over, it's pretty much a given that the tyre must be moving sideways as well.
Sure, but it is also true that your tire could be slipping laterally with little longitudinal slip. But yeah, usually you have lateral and longitudinal slip together.
The only thing I was saying is that saying "I want to slip 5%" is a coarse simplification.
Quote from: Allen on June 10, 2014, 01:04:48 PM
It is possible that the grip fall off needs to change (again you can exchange peak for fall off and get a better, more forgiving tyre that is just as fast but easier to cope with (so more sliding but less falling off).
That is exactly what I intended to try (if and when, cause it sounds damn hard): a more forgiving tire could help sliding in a more controllable fashion. But I also said that I'm really not sure if that would be enough.
Quote from: Allen on June 10, 2014, 01:04:48 PM
At the end of the day you can do as much maths as you like, it doesn't really help to get to a point of being able to "ride" better in a sim with no haptic feedback.. and riding a bike really is all about feel
I guess we agree on the fact that the lack of feedback is the main responsible of why it's hard to slide controllably in GPB (I said it in my very 1st post on the subject).
That said, I can't rule out the possibility of providing more slide control than what we have now, despite the fact I'm not sure I'd like to have it.
Quote from: Allen on June 10, 2014, 01:04:48 PM
(dumb as it may sound, I'd really like to see some feedback, and the removal of the limit on lean angle... if I want to ride off the edge of the tyres, I should be able to.. but I should get enough feedback to tell me I'm about to, so I don't... )
I'm not against some additional feedback at all (maybe for knee down, maybe for rear sliding, don't know), but that's entirely up to Piboso.
The removal of the lean limit could be interesting too, but again it's something only Piboso can do.
MaX.
Max, I meant measuring slip whilst actually riding, I realise tyre manufacturers have all manner of slip measurements they can make.. I'd hate to think anyone tried to develop a tyre on just guess work and seat of the pants feel ;)
Quote from: Allen on June 10, 2014, 02:19:53 PM
Max, I meant measuring slip whilst actually riding
Oh that ... well yes, no direct measure. But I'm sure the sophisticated ECUs do have a mean to estimate that, so even this info is potentially available on-board.
MaX.
Quote from: girlracerTracey on June 10, 2014, 10:17:44 AM
Quote from: EdouardB on June 10, 2014, 09:27:11 AM
I also would like to add that I am NOT pretending to be some GP rider or anything. I'm just an amateur who is fortunate enough to have ridden some unusual bikes on the track and I'm not crazy fast. And I don't want to sound like a "know-it-all", because I simply don't know it all.
I'm just trying to give my feedback to try to improve the game :)
I think your contribution to this discussion is a very worthy EdouardB particularly bearing in mind your experience in riding so many assorted racing motorcycles.
In defence of the gp500 pc game I wouldn't personally call the ability to power-slide and rear wheel steer in the game "ridiculous" but I would describe it as exaggerated from real life. I think if you wish to experience the "ridiculous" look no further that Milestone's motogp13/13 games.. ;)
As BOBR6 rightly says I am new to the gpbikes simulation and I have a lot to learn. I fully accept that.
I am going to take a back-seat on this discussion and listen to those who are more qualified to comment than I am. Both from the perspective of real life racing and from more advanced experience of gpbikes. However I do think this is a very interesting discussion.
grT
Didnt mean to diss-hearten anyone!
I was litterally speaking for myself!
+1 what max said!
Besides, I suck at gpbikes.. Also I only race a 2001 yamaha R6 (carb model) no tcs, no electronics at all. Throttle response is hit or miss lol. 1 thing that is for sure.. On my bike anyway.. Tyres make a HUGE difference!! Its certainly not moto gp.. or a gp bike but when I used bridgestones my bike was sliding everywhere.. Into and out of corners! I use pirelli diablo supercorsa or dunlops now and I feel planted.. Still get slips and slides but that comes with the territory..
Been playing gpbikes the last couple of days and getting really frustrated with it..
For me personally I think gpbikes has more ''front end'' and track surface/elevation issues to sort out first..
Oh bless you Bob :) Don't worry I'm not disheartened. I just try to realise in myself when I have given everything that I can give on any given subject..and then shut-up! lol. To give everyone else a rest from my opinions.. You're a fast guy in real life and in m/c racing sim.s. I respect your opinion. ;)
You guys have played gpbikes much longer than I have and you guys also race /do track days in real life. I have raced but only as an amateur and only a couple of times.. I am a complete novice in that respect. Plus Max is really knowledgeable on engineering and motorcycle science and I'm not..
So I am not disheartened. I am listening intently to what you guys have to say..
Quote from: BOBR6 84 link=topic=1164.msg14295#msg14295
Been playing gpbikes the last couple of days and getting really frustrated with it..
For me personally I think gpbikes has more ''front end'' and track surface/elevation issues to sort out first..
If you don't mind doing so can you elaborate a bit on your front end and the track surface/elevation issues? I am intrigued by what the problem(s) might be.
grT :)
Yeah sure..
Before I say anything il just point out this could be down to my bike setup, lines, and things like having rider weight l/r auto/manual.
Some tracks when I turn into the corner the front wheel just washes out.. Especially on uphill turns! When you have some lean angle and start going uphill, it just washes out unless you take a wide entry to square it off.. Which is slow and boring.. I want to attack the corner!
Some tracks you can get away with it but it also feels like there is some ''other force'' pulling the bike up and around the turn? Cadwell park for eg, strange things happen there..
Again some people say (myself too) the front end issue isnt as bad with manual rider l/r lean!
So f+#k knows whats going on? Lol
Search no more, it's a known issue. Very visible on corners with slope and/or bank.
Using manual rider lean L/R seems to reduce the impact.
MaX.
Quote from: HornetMaX on June 10, 2014, 10:57:55 PM
Search no more, it's a known issue. Very visible on corners with slope and/or bank.
Using manual rider lean L/R seems to reduce the impact.
MaX.
So is it a track problem or physics/rider movement problem? Or combo of both?
When I first started GP Bikes I had Direct Lean On, even though it was on by default. I was falling down so much I was turning every thing on and off trying to find out what worked for me. I drove with Direct Lean On for months got use to it. But it just didn't feel right to me. So i switched it off, relearned how to rider and liked it better for my riding style.
Over the last couple days while I've been practicing DST. I also tried out Direct Lean on and off, Auto rider Lean on and off. Now this is purely what I found for myself. Since I never really used auto rider, maybe the first week I got GP Bikes. I'd get confused with people saying the front keeps folding on them, when it didn't seem to happen to me. So I decided to do some tests, what I found out was. Direct Lean On, Auto Rider L/R on. I could ride around but the front handle bars would shake a lot more when switching directs. The front end would fold under the bike. I could tell a split second before it would happen. Other times it was more random.
I put rider back to full manual Direct Lean On, handle bars still where jiggling around when taking when switching directions, less then they were auto rider, by a good bit but still noticeable. For me I have really small hands and a light tough, Direct Lean On feels like it is meant for heavy handed player. I know MaX will differ on this and say it's meant for a lighter touch from my experiene personal it's the opposite.
Then I went back to Direct Lean Off, Full Manual Rider, the wobble was again noticeably less but still there. Shifting the rider left and right if a wobble starts will get it to stop.
DST I haven't noticed any wobble of the handle bars, aside from them wanting to fall to one side or the other then first spawning. Or if the front tire comes off the ground.
Quote from: Klax75 on June 11, 2014, 04:45:34 AM
So I decided to do some tests, what I found out was. Direct Lean On, Auto Rider L/R on. I could ride around but the front handle bars would shake a lot more when switching directs. The front end would fold under the bike. I could tell a split second before it would happen. Other times it was more random.
One thing I have personally noticed is that with a steering wheel and Direct Lean On/Auto Rider L/R on, the tendency for the front end to "tuck" in this way seems noticeably less to me.
This effect seems a less common occurrence to me now..
grT
The up hill, down dale issues have been around since alpha, the 250 around lime rock was more like riding speedway up the hill (the betas have vacillated between being better up and down hill). I'm hopeful that Pibosos work on MX bikes may have given him a few answers to put back into GP-Bikes....
Quote from: Allen on June 11, 2014, 11:46:03 AM
I'm hopeful that Pibosos work on MX bikes may have given him a few answers to put back into GP-Bikes....
:-X sshhst no mention of MX-Bikes here ;)
Quote from: Allen on June 11, 2014, 11:46:03 AM
The up hill, down dale issues have been around since alpha, the 250 around lime rock was more like riding speedway up the hill (the betas have vacillated between being better up and down hill). I'm hopeful that Pibosos work on MX bikes may have given him a few answers to put back into GP-Bikes....
"Vacillating" is such a cool word..I love it! Don't hear it used much..
I love cool words like that! Language really excites me when it is used so nicely.
grT :)
Quote from: PeterV on June 11, 2014, 02:55:49 PM
Quote from: Allen on June 11, 2014, 11:46:03 AM
I'm hopeful that Pibosos work on MX bikes may have given him a few answers to put back into GP-Bikes....
:-X sshhst no mention of MX-Bikes here ;)
Lol! Another poor kitten has sadly been killed...
More grip less problem in front Wheel but too much wheelling to my taste.
Personnally i have just touched the tyre grip and all is perfect and if u want quick reaction you use direct lean on.
My test track was sachenring ( problems in front wheels on this track).
And i have used the varese dunno if it's important or no but you're config file point to the varese geom file...